PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

magnumcromagnon wrote:Indian Flanker, check out this nice photoshop  :

magnumcromagnon wrote:Here's another one from Parlay forums  :

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:Here's another one from Parlay forums  :

Do you know why I can't go yo Paralay's forum? I always get an "Unable to access the network" message.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:Here's another one from Parlay forums  :

Do you know why I can't go yo Paralay's forum? I always get an "Unable to access the network" message.

Maybe it's the browser your using; I'm using Google Chrome.

TR1 wrote:http://paralay.iboards.ru/search.php?search_id=active_topics&sid=788c2c7c24c6e62820b5eb5f7d4afdd8

Does this link not work for you?

Austin wrote:Could be DNS issue try using Google DNS

8.8.8.8
8.8.4.4

Or if that doesnt work try TOR Browser

http://www.torproject.org.in/download/download-easy.html.en

Austin wrote:Could be DNS issue try using Google DNS

8.8.8.8
8.8.4.4

Or if that doesnt work try TOR Browser

http://www.torproject.org.in/download/download-easy.html.en

magnumcromagnon wrote:Here's another one from Parlay forums  :

Indian Flanker wrote:
My only worry is that, IAF who are obsessed with Rafale may force Indian government to pull out of this JV with the Russians(which would be tragic for us), because you see, our money resources are limited, we can not afford two $20 billion+ programmes simutaneously, hence something has to be given.

And in this case IAF may opt for Rafale(love is blind), instead of FGFA(much to the delight of the Americans/anti-Russians world-wide).


PS: I just hope Garry doesn't read the above comment

Indian Flanker wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:Here's another one from Parlay forums  :

All of us are eagerly waiting for the first FGFA prototype to arrive in India. The final R&D contract was completed by April of last year, but because of cost escalation, Indian Government formed a committee to look into this matter.

Last I heard was that the committe has submitted its report(though am not 100% sure on this one). Lets see how quickly the new government which will come to power next month signs this deal.

Once this deal is inked, three prototypes will fly to India and will be tested by the Indian pilots. Hopefully the first prototype shall fly by the next year(it was scheduled to fly this year, but because of cost escalation of the project, it got delayed).


My only worry is that, IAF who are obsessed with Rafale may force Indian government to pull out of this JV with the Russians(which would be tragic for us), because you see, our money resources are limited, we can not afford two $20 billion+ programmes simutaneously, hence something has to be given.

And in this case IAF may opt for Rafale(love is blind), instead of FGFA(much to the delight of the Americans/anti-Russians world-wide).


PS: I just hope Garry doesn't read the above comment

Not to worry, the chinis will pick up the slack.

Russia has announced its priorities for the export of arms where India is the key priority. Currently, Russia and India are jointly developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Recently, the Indian Air Force reported the plans to purchase more than 200 FGFA fighters.

On October 8, the Indian Air Force organized an exhibition and demonstration flights at the base near New Delhi to celebrate the 79th anniversary of the national Air Force. It was announced that the Air Force would buy 214 FGFAs, including 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat models. The twin-seat fighters will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Chang Hu, the editor of a military magazine, and his colleague were invited to the studio of the Chinese television CCTV. They answered a number of questions.



What is the FGFA fighter?

It should be a fighter developed in line with the highest world standards. India’s technological base is very weak, therefore Russia would do the bulk of this work. Russia has already developed a prototype aircraft (the T-50 project), which is undergoing flight tests.

Then why can’t Russia sell these fighters to India? Why do they need this joint development?

In fact, the T-50 is still under development. Russia showed the fighter at the MAKS 2011 air show. It was clear that the aircraft’s design is "rough" with a lot of seams and joints. India’s participation can cover a significant share of funding for this project. Currently, India has to make the choice between the two European fighters - Typhoon or Rafale – to buy 126 fighters for the Air Force. Given the difficult economic situation in Europe, India can succeed in "extorting" technologies. For example, these aircrafts have very good avionics and India can become a "consolidator" of European and Russian technologies in the FGFA project.

According to the Indian Air Force, the country hopes to get this fighter as early as 2017, that is, it would take only six years to develop it.

In fact, the entire technological platform of this aircraft will be developed in Russia. However, the T-50 is rather a technology demonstrator and it will take a lot of time to get the real fighter. The Russian Air Force reported this fighter would be adopted in 2015, which is hard to believe. Moreover, if the Indian Air Force gets this fighter in 2017 then India can adopt it even faster that the Russian Air Force. Probably, India will be the second test site for the T-50.

It is known that the USA does not export the F-22, then why does Russia allow another country access to the latest technologies?

I think the first reason is that India poses no threat to Russia. Second, this aircraft’s design is still far from the desired level. The T-50 has on-board equipment but a lot has still to be created, for example, a digital data bus similar to the American 1553B. Russia lags behind in this area but France can share a similar technology with India if the Rafale fighter wins the tender.

So, India can consolidate the French and Russian military technologies in the new fighter. India has a special way of military thinking – it wants to get ready-made products not bothering to develop new ones.
But India will again be dependent on foreign technology ...

I think the participation in the development of modern aircraft would be useful for India since the country needs designing experience. The FGFA project is a rare opportunity to gain experience in this field.

So, can India become the owner of the latest technology?

Yes. It will be a big step forward. India will be one of the few countries in the world with its own fifth-generation fighter.

If all goes as planned, can India surpass the US in the number of heavy fifth-generation fighters?

That’s true.

How will this factor affect the situation in the Asia-Pacific?

India has approved the 11th five-year plan, during which 214 fifth-generation fighters must be adopted. In fact, everything depends on the Indian Air Force funding.

But this period is too short to produce so many fighters.

That’s right.

Another question. Today, India can purchase military systems from Western countries including the United States. But Russian weapons still account for 70% of India’s military arsenal. Why does India continue to prefer Russian weapons?

First, it is because of the relative cheapness of Russian military hardware and equipment. Second, Russia is willing to transfer much more technology than Western countries. India uses this situation to diversify arms purchases thus achieving greater independence in the sources of weapons. For example, India buys the C-130 and C-17 transport aircraft in the United States.

...Maybe if Moscow makes a call to Beijing, about finishing the project...maybe that might light a fire in the Indian's govt's collective guts...

BANGALORE (India), February 6 (RIA Novosti) - India is to equip its Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF) variant of the Russian T-50 fifth-generation combat aircraft with avionics similar to Russia’s version of the plane, United Aircraft Corporation President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Wednesday.

“The future plane (PMF) will have not only the same airframe, but also an integrated system of onboard equipment,” Pogosyan said, stressing this was a requirement of the Indian Air Force.

Details of the PMF design will be specified after the relevant contracts with India are signed, he said.

The PMF will have such advanced features as stealth, supersonic cruise speed, high maneuverability, an integrated set of avionics, and an advanced threat-warning system, according to Sukhoi.

The fighter is being developed on the basis of the Russian perspective aviation complex (PAK FA), of which T-50 is a prototype, to India's stringent technical requirements. Further development of the program envisages design and development of a two-seat variant and integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust. The two sides are supposed to cooperate in joint marketing of the aircraft in other countries.

Indian Flanker wrote:

...Maybe if Moscow makes a call to Beijing, about finishing the project...maybe that might light a fire in the Indian's govt's collective guts...

No they won't. If China gets involved with FGFA project, then their own 5th gen programmes aka J-20/J-31 would become redundant.

China's aim now is to rely on their domestic industry, as it is very important if you want to be called a world-super power.

India bailing out of this project would be travesty of prudence on their behalf, that's the bottomline of this matter.

Indian Flanker wrote:http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130206/179261409/India-to-Use-Russian-Avionics-For-Future-Fighter---UAC-Boss.html


Not something new, but found out something interesting about FGFA/PMF direct from the horse's mouth:

BANGALORE (India), February 6 (RIA Novosti) - India is to equip its Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF) variant of the Russian T-50 fifth-generation combat aircraft with avionics similar to Russia’s version of the plane, United Aircraft Corporation President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Wednesday.

“The future plane (PMF) will have not only the same airframe, but also an integrated system of onboard equipment,” Pogosyan said, stressing this was a requirement of the Indian Air Force.

Details of the PMF design will be specified after the relevant contracts with India are signed, he said.

The PMF will have such advanced features as stealth, supersonic cruise speed, high maneuverability, an integrated set of avionics, and an advanced threat-warning system, according to Sukhoi.

The fighter is being developed on the basis of the Russian perspective aviation complex (PAK FA), of which T-50 is a prototype, to India's stringent technical requirements. Further development of the program envisages design and development of a two-seat variant and integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust. The two sides are supposed to cooperate in joint marketing of the aircraft in other countries.

So not only the airframe, but even the avionics of the T-50 and FGFA are going to be the same. So, Garry was quite right about this one

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

...Maybe if Moscow makes a call to Beijing, about finishing the project...maybe that might light a fire in the Indian's govt's collective guts...

No they won't. If China gets involved with FGFA project, then their own 5th gen programmes aka J-20/J-31 would become redundant.

China's aim now is to rely on their domestic industry, as it is very important if you want to be called a world-super power.

India bailing out of this project would be travesty of prudence on their behalf, that's the bottomline of this matter.

I was well aware of the fact that they turned down the original offer, if you noticed I posted a picture of a guy breathing fire with a vague reference to a Indian Street Fighter character named "Dhalsim", it was a attempt at tongue-and-cheek humor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhalsim


...Redundant to have multiple 5th generation fighter platforms? Russia has literally countless different kinds of of anti-ship missiles, yet they find usefulness out of all the different versions of missiles to fill their own niche', and they keep funding R&D projects to create newer and different versions of missiles for that same role. While they originally turned it down, having different 5th gen fighters for different niche's to fill makes rather more sense to a wealthy country who is willing to spend on their military budget. The Russian jets would be of a higher quality but bought at lower quantities because of their higher prices, while the Chinese fighters would be of lower quality (still useful) but they would be significantly cheaper and would be bought in significantly higher quantities. The T-50 would be best suited for WVR air-superiority while the J-20 with it's bigger mid-section would be better suited for ground attack, and the J-31 would be bought in numbers and small enough to fit many on future aircraft carriers. If they can afford it than I don't see why they wouldn't buy, and lets not forget they originally "turned down" buying Su-35's, only to order them anyway.

TR1 wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20130206/179261409/India-to-Use-Russian-Avionics-For-Future-Fighter---UAC-Boss.html


Not something new, but found out something interesting about FGFA/PMF direct from the horse's mouth:

BANGALORE (India), February 6 (RIA Novosti) - India is to equip its Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF) variant of the Russian T-50 fifth-generation combat aircraft with avionics similar to Russia’s version of the plane, United Aircraft Corporation President Mikhail Pogosyan said on Wednesday.

“The future plane (PMF) will have not only the same airframe, but also an integrated system of onboard equipment,” Pogosyan said, stressing this was a requirement of the Indian Air Force.

Details of the PMF design will be specified after the relevant contracts with India are signed, he said.

The PMF will have such advanced features as stealth, supersonic cruise speed, high maneuverability, an integrated set of avionics, and an advanced threat-warning system, according to Sukhoi.

The fighter is being developed on the basis of the Russian perspective aviation complex (PAK FA), of which T-50 is a prototype, to India's stringent technical requirements. Further development of the program envisages design and development of a two-seat variant and integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust. The two sides are supposed to cooperate in joint marketing of the aircraft in other countries.

So not only the airframe, but even the avionics of the T-50 and FGFA are going to be the same. So, Garry was quite right about this one

Yeah I thought so from the start as well.

Making unnecessary differences is just stupid from an economic perspective.

collegeboy16 wrote:good to see they are going all russkie for the avionics too, would make the product better and cost effective too. now all thats left is to cancel Rafale, hehehe and go for Mig-35/ or more orders of FGFA.

Indian Flanker wrote:

collegeboy16 wrote:good to see they are going all russkie for the avionics too, would make the product better and cost effective too. now all thats left is to cancel Rafale, hehehe and go for Mig-35/ or more orders of FGFA.

We have done this before. But IAF is in love with Rafale(love is blind). Infact the Russians were so pissed off in 2011 after IAF chose Rafale that the evergreen Indo-Russian relationship went to its lowest point ever in history.

India ordering Mig-35 would have meant that:

1) MiG brand remains healthy financially  and popular, with India going for it over all birds of the world.

2) MiG would have found enough R&D money to sustain the LMF 5th gen fighter, which was postponed because of Russian government/UAC focussing more on the heavy T-50.

3) More weapon sales= more money to Russia.

4) To take the Indo-Russian or Indo-MiG relationship to the next level( as MiG offered for the first time IP rights of MiG-35 to India).

Conclusion:  Russians thought that their offer was the best for India's requirements, and fullfilled all criteria(s) put up by  the IAF, but was knocked out because of IAF's bias towards Rafale, hence the anger.


PS: Interesting thing is, in the late 1990s, India was more interested in a light 5th gen fighter from MiG, but later UAC convinced them to join a heavy-fighter project aka the T-50.

LOL, some people in India thought that the Indian version was going to be superior to the Russian version

Conclusion: Russians thought that their offer was the best for India's requirements, and fullfilled all criteria(s) put up by the IAF, but was knocked out because of IAF's bias towards Rafale, hence the anger.

PS: Interesting thing is, in the late 1990s, India was more interested in a light 5th gen fighter from MiG, but later UAC convinced them to join a heavy-fighter project aka the T-50.