Νew Technologies and Innovation Development in Russia

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Yandex growth is far more in shorter years than Google's start did.

Yandex founded in 2000, Google 1998. Right

miketheterrible wrote: Same with use of AI as I mentioned. Drones and the rest is nothing, no need for you to even compare since that is amateur talk.  
Hardware isn't even made by any of the companies you posted. Hardware is purchased elsewhere and then made into something else.

Yes those companies are called subsidiaries of  Alphabet in Google's case.  Like Boston Robotics,Deep Mind or Motorola Mobility. Please stay focused. We might differ in opinions but do not get personal.

miketheterrible wrote: You can lie to yourself all you want on this importance, but all you are comparing to are simple commercial projects what you think is AI, isn't. The only companies actually involved in it are companies like Gooogle, Yandex, Facebook and alike. Even then, for commercial use and isn't true AI anyway.  I wish I could tell you who I work for, but then it becomes simple to round down to who I am for others in same company and that's a no no. But essentially, our AI development isn't real AI. But on market and paper, it is. Sorters are example of said AI.

hmmm tell me what is real AI for you pls? This real deal not some fake news stuff vision systems using Tensor Flow or Carnegie Caffe's frameworks or Amazon's autonomous vehicle program.

ill just say this: AI is a library used. It isn't new tech. What you are witnessing is similar tech used since 1970's but more refined today. I would like to know your qualifications on this,seeing as how I do analysts for this kind of field.

Singular_Transform wrote:
The US financing/banking system broken, the top level ( like IT startups) financing easy, but justifying by the falling number of enterprises the SME sector and the business creating process dead .
So, the financial system of the US is dysfunctional.

And sadly the Apple has higher revenue than the GM, but the GM has more employee than the prior.

The backbone of the problem is the broken US job market.

There is no fight any more for workers.

we discuss here Russian system not American. There is no need to praise or critique US way besides simply accepting truth:it works and generates innovations.
US was mentioned just as a reference. My question how to improve way Russian startups can grow into large companies is still valid can you try to speculate how to do this?  My very subjective opinion is that in Russian economic bloc is somehow belief that mythical investors come and  share wealth to make Russian hi-tech grow.  I hope I am miserably wrong here

miketheterrible wrote:

gunshipdemocracy wrote:

hmmm tell me what is real AI for you pls? This real deal not some fake news stuff vision systems using Tensor Flow or Carnegie Caffe's frameworks or Amazon's autonomous vehicle program.

ill just say this: AI is a library used. It isn't new tech. What you are witnessing is similar tech used since 1970's but more refined today.   I would like to know your qualifications on this,seeing as how I do analysts for this kind of field.

AI is library used?  wow never heard such statement do not worry about my qualifications jut tell me on your level.

I already did. You can tell me yours, because it will provide me insight as to why you think like you do.

Since you state Canada in location, then you may know how well automation has worked, especially during lets say winter.  It isn't about intelligence or learning, its about its sensor suite and how well it can determin based upon its library. Algorithms. Output is based upon its input and that is gathered by a library. It will determine what, were and possibly how based upon certain inputs. So a robot jumps into a lake, it determines its in a lake based upon various parameters.  AI will be same everywhere - you can think of movies like terminator and signed, but that isn't real, and don't be for a long time or of at all.  They are machines. A robot won't go to Regina because it wanted to. It will go because in the end, it was programmed to. There are some exceptions of course, like a self driving car learning from other drivers (suposedly) but it is still creating a model (within its library) based upon algorithms from what its sensor picked up, from other drivers.

Buran was no different. Programming.

For Russia, its entire structure is based upon scientific institutions that are ran by the universities. Universities are contracted out to companies for innovation. No different in US and Canada.

Most of the US tech development derives from military projects that are sold to open bidders when commercialized for civil use.  Been that way for forever. Only becoming a recent thing in Russia.  The defense companies contract certain institutions and or universities for R&D

miketheterrible wrote:I already did. You can tell me yours, because it will provide me insight as to why you think like you do.

Since you state Canada in location, then you may know how well automation has worked, especially during lets say winter.  It isn't about intelligence or learning, its about its sensor suite and how well it can determin based upon its library. Algorithms. Output is based upon its input and that is gathered by a library. It will determine what, were and possibly how based upon certain inputs. So a robot jumps into a lake, it determines its in a lake based upon various parameters.  AI will be same everywhere - you can think of movies like terminator and signed, but that isn't real, and don't be for a long time or of at all.  They are machines. A robot won't go to Regina because it wanted to. It will go because in the end, it was programmed to.  There are some exceptions of course, like a self driving car learning from other drivers (suposedly) but it is still creating a model (within its library) based upon algorithms from what its sensor picked up, from other drivers.

Buran was no different. Programming.

For Russia, its entire structure is based upon scientific institutions that are ran by the universities. Universities are contracted out to companies for innovation. No different in US and Canada.

Most of the US tech development derives from military projects that are sold to open bidders when commercialized for civil use.  Been that way for forever. Only becoming a recent thing in Russia.  The defense companies contract certain institutions and or universities for R&D

OK thanks now I've heard how you define AI. There are different approaches on this but definition you provided is very narrow to me and is valid to very narrow applications.


Machine Learning in shortest is a "data compression". When an algorithm can improveimprove itself based on what it can find in data. Library is only implementation of specific approach. First math, theorem. Then proving then implementation. Library is only the last part for easier reuse. There are many approaches in Data Science with regard to ML. This is not forum to discuss for example beauty of convolutional NN (like here http://ufldl.stanford.edu/tutorial/supervised/ConvolutionalNeuralNetwork/ ) or when is better to apply genetic algorithms' instead if Bayesian networks approach. But just to let you know my view on things.


There is no "generic AI" or Strong AI yet. And won't be in foreseeable future. And this is very good. However applications like autonomous vehicles, investment strategies, chatbots, IT security or medicine AI is doing just fine. Since military applications is also important field (especially in connection with edge computing for missiles, drones) I am sure Russians will invest their resources here too. The question here is how good this will be returned on civilian market?

To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.




BTW you likely have never heard an oldjoke about Stalin's conversation with Kurchatov about strait between Canada and Mexico

No, sorry, can't say I have heard the joke, but ill look it up.  Reason for my narrow viewpoint of it is that is what I have experienced and seen up front. I'm no programmer, but our programmers whom working on "our AI" (I don't and refuse to take credit cause these guys are far smarter than me and work harder, I just do tech analysts) give this broad viewpoint as a common method of teaching others. In the end, when failure happens, its based upon the code.  I know about their methods in ML and making the algorithms more compressed and efficient, but there a hint be any HAL (2001 space oddysee) either anytime soon or ever.  While we pride ourselves as humans to knowing all in the name of science, we are also extremely limited because of our inherent limitations. Hence why I said the computer will never have the same feelings as another may do to go to a certain destination.  When people at my workplace talk about this stuff, our engineers laugh and tells us to stop watching Dr.Who.  Our company is larger than Amazon, so I tend to believe these guys.

And I understand what essence you are going with in this chat, about the use in commercialization.  Well, Russia cannot afford the same method US uses simply because, its costly.  Example is Tesla/space x.  Elon Musk got the technology from existing institutions and obtained subsidies upwards to $6B. That is a lot.of taxpayer money.  The only real method for Russia is to either get the defense industries more involved in civil development, along with Roscosmos and Rosatom, or give the tech away as susbsidies.  Currently. The structure I mentioned earlier is only one exists - public/private companies hires institutions to design the new technology and do the programming. Rarely do they do it themselves, costs too much.  Military industrial complex in Russia is the one advancing really fast in AI research and technology development.  But that is because the military does have the money and brains.  Yandex, mail.ru, etc also have their own AI development and tech programs but not as wealth generating as MiC can do. Rostec and rosatom are the only two entities I know of in Russia that not only is developing high technologies like that found in US, but are only ones outside the MiC who can afford it too. Simply because Rosatom is stupidly wealthy and Rostec has all the major institutions, fabrication plants and wealth as well under its belt.  Russia is going the same way South Korea did with its Samsung (Rostec).  I have my money bets on Rostec and Rosatom. Would love to see what the two can do if they combine their efforts and resources.

As I mentioned before, Russia lacks big time in marketing. So even if they have a solid object or whatever to sell, it will never outdo the competition. Yotaphone was example. The Russia video game industry is another. Movies, etc etc etc. They just don't have the same reach as US does, and that had far more to do with banking than it does with innovation.  Yeah, China outpaces US in scientific research now. But they won't get same marketing reach for their inventions as a US company would.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

we discuss here Russian system not American. There is no need to praise or critique US way besides simply accepting truth:it works and generates innovations.
US was mentioned just as a reference. My question how to improve way Russian startups can grow into large companies is still valid can you try to speculate how to do this?  My very subjective opinion is that in Russian economic bloc is somehow belief that mythical investors come and  share wealth to make Russian hi-tech grow.  I hope I am miserably wrong here

You can't see your logical fallacy.

You use the US financial system as a baseline, like something that axiomatically superior .

My point is the US financial system doesn't work and dysfunctional, so using up the US start up financing as an example is like praising parts of the soviet economical planning.

Copy the model of the US start up financing can be a recipe for disaster.

The success of a few tech company contributed completely different reasons, that no one wants to implement.
Like open, unrestricted trade flow, that destroyed the US economy : )

GunshipDemocracy wrote:


To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.

To market t whom?

The US running extreme level of trade deficit, so we can say based on the experience that the AI is not in high demand on the world market, at least not high enough to balance the trade.

Additional, it is not capable to improve the productivity of the US : D


Seriously, how much value can you attach to the this AI rubbish?
IS the google results become more useful because they upgraded the algorithm to same "AI"?

Don't think so, I still have to use the ebay/amazon to found goods to buy.

The whole AI thing is a marketing trick.

And finally: just because you works on a given field doesn't means that the given field is important. It means only you are important for yourself.

Singular_Transform wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:


To remind you: We discuss here Russian abilities to market AI.

The US running extreme level of trade deficit, so we can say based on the experience that the AI is not in high demand on the world market, at least not high enough to balance the trade.

Additional, it is not capable to improve the productivity of the US : D

it doesn't matter as long as Russia or China is paying for US debts buying securities. This even can grow more on behalf of lowering Russian pensions if you want.

Singular_Transform wrote:
To market t whom?

To civilian markets? so far Russia was mildly speaking moderately successful in selling civilian products. Show me 5 Russian civilian brands recognizable on Hi Tech markets?

Singular_Transform wrote: Don't think so, I still have to use the ebay/amazon to found goods to buy.

Amazon spends in 2017 15bln$ on R&D and is US company. And you have just admitted buying there because is best. Thank you for confirming my thesis

Singular_Transform wrote:
Seriously, how much value can you attach to the this AI rubbish?
IS the google results become more useful because they upgraded the algorithm to  same "AI"?
+
The whole AI thing is a marketing trick.  And finally: just because you works on a given field doesn't means that the given field is important. It means only you are important for yourself.

It is soo good that you know better how it goes then Putin. Try in 2018 your chances? let's see your knowledge and importance. You're 18+ right?
and keep buying US stuff talking that Russia does not need hi tech.

Singular_Transform wrote:

You can't see your logical fallacy.

You use the US financial system as a baseline, like something that axiomatically superior .

My point is the US financial system doesn't work and dysfunctional, so using up the US start up financing as an example is like praising parts of the soviet economical planning.

Copy the model of the US start up financing can be a recipe for disaster.

The success of a few tech company contributed completely different reasons, that no one wants to implement.
Like open, unrestricted trade flow, that destroyed the US economy : )

My apologies I was writing to adult audience so far. This might be too hard for you. I never said US system is perfect or sustainable without external influx of wealth. It was built this way and nobody neither China or especially Russia cannot copy it. But US system works and will work as long as there is no alternative and US military / covert coups will keep world by the balls.

kvs wrote:AI will not be developed by the private sector.   Anyone who thinks that private companies lead scientific innovation simply has no
clue about reality.  [] money loss by corporate accountants.

[]

AI is nowhere near any level that is presented by sci-fi stories and movies.   Fancy neural networks and pattern recognition are
very far from self-awareness and consciousness.     At this stage it looks like the latter are emergent effects of massive biological
neural networks.    We don't have any artificial neural networks that have billions of neurons.    And any emergent higher level
functionality from a hypothetical human device is not automatically guaranteed to be the real deal.   Evolution over millions of years
can't be replaced with some dart throwing human hacks.    Reality has tuned emergent functionality.   How will humans tune it
when they don't even begin to understand it?

Interesting point of view. Personally I do not see problem in mixing private and university research programmes. Simply many of scientists also want to earn money and have their results tested in real market conditions. University research is correctly fostered by state. But in applied science must be a market factor included. Otherwise you just waste your research funds. At the end of the day corporations still pay taxes right?

However regardless if you like it or not there is money to make, GDP to grow and people waiting for opportunities to grow business or get better job. In Russia is not the different then in other countries. The main question here is not even about AI. In general how to find resources for Russian startups to scale up and find markets? It is good that China is going towards more consumer based model thus giving potential space also to Russian companies. However if two compaies start with similar product in Russia and China. The Chinese one is likely got more money form stock exchange or corpo investor to company scaling up is faster. Faster growth faster to occupy niche...

My biggest hope is that Stolypin's Club will have more to say after 2018 elections in terms on economy growth.

PapaDragon wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Vann will shit his bed  

Russia Rolls Out Its Own VR Helmets

https://sputniknews.com/science/201709111057289957-russia-virtual-reality-helmets/


Company site:
http://deusvr.ru/

not sure about Vann and why but to illustrate my point. How do you think this startup will develop?  

Don't know, could go either way but they have product, they have distribution and are trying to get into military market (shocker right?...  )

Personally I am not that into VR (been there in early 90s, gimmick, nothing to write home about)

Best thing to come of it is movie Lawnmower Man 

heh Lawnmower Man was soo long ago it does nto count The fan is that military market is enough small to keep price up and only civilian one gives opportunity to grow comany into decent level.

miketheterrible wrote:No, sorry, can't say I have heard the joke, but ill look it up.  

On comicstrip: Stalin with pipe looking on map where is water between Canada and Mexico. And answering to other dude with a scientist looks: so you say to name it Stalin's strait comrade Kurchatov?

miketheterrible wrote:
And I understand what essence you are going with in this chat, about the use in commercialization.  Well, Russia cannot afford the same method US uses simply because, its costly.  Example is Tesla/space x.  Elon Musk got the technology from existing institutions and obtained subsidies upwards to $6B. That is a lot.of taxpayer money.  The only real method for Russia is to either get the defense industries more involved in civil development, along with Roscosmos and Rosatom, or give the tech away as susbsidies.  Currently. The structure I mentioned earlier is only one exists - public/private companies hires institutions to design the new technology and do the programming. Rarely do they do it themselves, costs too much.  Military industrial complex in Russia is the one advancing really fast in AI research and technology development.  But that is because the military does have the money and brains.  Yandex, mail.ru, etc also have their own AI development and tech programs but not as wealth generating as MiC can do. Rostec and rosatom are the only two entities I know of in Russia that not only is developing high technologies like that found in US, but are only ones outside the MiC who can afford it too. Simply because Rosatom is stupidly wealthy and Rostec has all the major institutions, fabrication plants and wealth as well under its belt.  Russia is going the same way South Korea did with its Samsung (Rostec).  I have my money bets on Rostec and Rosatom. Would love to see what the two can do if they combine their efforts and resources.

As I mentioned before, Russia lacks big time in marketing. So even if they have a solid object or whatever to sell, it will never outdo the competition. Yotaphone was example. The Russia video game industry is another. Movies, etc etc etc. They just don't have the same reach as US does, and that had far more to do with banking than it does with innovation.  Yeah, China outpaces US in scientific research now. But they won't get same marketing reach for their inventions as a US company would.

US if we like it or not spent decades to fix its status. No other country can simply repeat its model. With most of I you've written I can only subscribe. My concern is either my low level of understanding what is happening in Russian elites or simply they are going wrong path.

I can see that CBR is going on strict low money output, politicians like mantra of shaman's are calling shots that sanctions will be decreasing, investors will come and everything is gonna be OK. No it is not. Sanctions are not because of anything. Ukraine was only pretext. Sanctions will likely increase so Russia has to learn to live and thrive economically despite this.

With current model I do not see it somehow. This requires internal source of investment. Cutting spending while reserves grow? especially when you talk about education and science? I hope I am wrong though.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
...

Again, chain of logic: if you build your reasoning around that the US has a superior economical policy/financial sector, and it is the expected target for any country, then first you have to prove it.
If the above statement is false, then all of your logic collapse.


Simple quiz: if the IT/AI and so on so nice, why the US productivity ( output per worker ) stagnating?
https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

So, the whole start-up financing/AI/Amazon/Google can't increase the productivity of the US.

The above diagram similar to the one that caused the fail of the CCCP.

Actually, Russia shown three times higher productivity improvement compared to the US.

About the amazon : C'mon, do you know the business model of the Amazon, or the price structure?
If something then it is a prime example what is the issue with the US financial system.

The amazon doing the ancient trick : if you willing to work with 0 profit then you can outsell any profit oriented competitor.
The only part of that business that makes money is the AWS. : D And hint : NOT due to AI : ) but due to simple and ancient structured programming with "I will fire you if you don't use strict API" method . : )

Singular_Transform wrote:

/ciach/

You're so sweet. First did you say Russia productivity is better then in US, Germany,Switzerland or Japan? right? or just growth is better but the base actually couple of times smaller?

Did I say Russia should copy US model? is shouldn't and cannot. US is setting rules of game now for almost all world. As long as Chine builds parallel world in terms of financing markets and economy not much can change. Sudden implosion of US economy is also dangerous for Russia.


Second where did I write Amazon/Google or other tech giants are making most of money form AI? They invest in new tech insane amounts of money. In large part in AI. Show me please 5 companies in Russia investing in R&D say 1 bln USD equivalent per year or more?

Third. If Russia wants to compete it has to find own model for financing research and development activities, scaling startups and markets. This is huge challenge. Until now progress is not impressive but I hope this will change for better.

Russia should be doing what Russia is doing and continue to do so.

Russia cannot and will not be able to be able to compete in the international market because the Russians are more or less blocked. They suck at marketing. They don't have the reach and will not due to influence, etc etc etc.

US made goods are normally junk. Hence why Japan goods were considered the best for so long (while before hand, Japan goods were garbage while US was great). Difference is, all these nations that are either replacing US or have such a strong marketing structure and great business models are all US allied nations. China has only broken the record by simply making mega companies.

Russia is doing the same with Rostec. But their products wont reach international civilian market like most of you may think. Kalashnikov makes civilian goods like clothing. You will not see Kalashnikov products such as clothing in the US or Canada, even if it is better quality than most of our Tshirts that are made by Bangladeshi children.

Simple facts here. Nothing more.

Uber yields Russian taxi business to Yandex in $3.7bn merger
https://www.rt.com/business/396213-yandex-uber-taxi-merger/

Uber will invest $225 million, while Yandex will invest $100 million in the joint venture, the companies said. The merged company will operate in Russia, as well as in Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, and Kazakhstan.

The Uber business in Ukraine is not part of the deal, a representative of Uber stressed.

Both mobile applications will still be available. 59.3 percent of the company will belong to Yandex, 36.6 percent to Uber, and 4.1 percent to the employees of the new business.

Tigran Khudaverdyan, head of Yandex.Taxi in Russia will become CEO of the joint enterprise. Together, the two firms handle 35 million rides a month.

The new company, which has not yet been officially named, “will have the right to use Yandex.Taxi and Uber brands in the region,” the companies said.

Well autonomous vehicles form Yandex say hello here

Putin in Yandex: talking to Alisa and watching autonomous vehicle
https://ria.ru/photolents/20170921/1505265399.html

President of Russia Vladimir Putin on Thursday visited the Moscow office of the company "Yandex". Communication of the head of state with the employees of the search engine and with the voice assistant "Alisa" - in photographic tape Ria.ru.

РИА Новости https://ria.ru/photolents/20170921/1505265399.html

kvs wrote:https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/98184/

New over 22% efficient solar panels manufactured by Rosnano owned Renova Group have been deployed in Altai.
The combined power rating of the "farm" is 20 Megawatts:



According to NATO politicians and their fake stream media flunkies Russia doesn't make anything and is decades if not centuries behind the
precious west.    

even if this is form Vekselberg is still the good news

I was kinda hoping that they would work with the Iranian alternative to Uber. Or work in conjunction with other parties in it (because many showed interest).

Autonomous driving cars work great in summer time and if the roads divider lines are actually painted properly. As we know, Canada and Russia both suffer from poor roads, bad paint jobs of the dividers, and terrible snow storms (which in this case, makes autonomous cars completely useless as tested various times even in my city).

BAH! I will not trust my life in the hands of such a machine as these cars. Especially since all the basic computers inside average car are garbage as is and usually prone to failures. God forbid these more complex sensors and computers....

I wonder, does Uber also share the same issues with sexual molestation cases in Russia as they do everywhere else?

Russians are just late to the memo as usual. iPhone X is really a POS as far as phones go, yet the demand is so high in Russia. Either they want to feel European still and have status symbols, or average person in Russia is clueless regarding the phone.

Anyway, KVS, you are semi right. Russian marketing isn't that great though because we do not see them attempt to sell their stuff internationally. Recall Yotaphone? It barely got the attraction even though that phone was far more innovative than the iPhone. Does anyone here in the west recall seeing a Yotaphone advertisement? No.

But you are definitely correct about NATO's mafia tactics. They are limiting Russia's ability to sell their products in the western markets simply because of this garbage mentality they spread. So that is why Russian products are being promoted more in countries like China, Syria, African countries, etc etc etc. Because those markets are not limited thanks to NATO.

kvs wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Russians are just late to the memo as usual.  iPhone X is really a POS as far as phones go, yet the demand is so high in Russia.  Either they want to feel European still and have status symbols, or average person in Russia is clueless regarding the phone.

Anyway, KVS, you are semi right.  Russian marketing isn't that great though because we do not see them attempt to sell their stuff internationally. Recall Yotaphone?  It barely got the attraction even though that phone was far more innovative than the iPhone.  Does anyone here in the west recall seeing a Yotaphone advertisement?  No.

But you are definitely correct about NATO's mafia tactics.  They are limiting Russia's ability to sell their products in the western markets simply because of this garbage mentality they spread.  So that is why Russian products are being promoted more in countries like China, Syria, African countries, etc etc etc.  Because those markets are not limited thanks to NATO.

I will have to disagree about Yota phone.  The western market is a racket and there was no point trying to break into it.   Most of
the cell phone sales in Canada are linked to the overpriced contracts with the cell phone service providers (Rogers, Telus, Bell, etc.).
These companies, I am quite sure, would never offer the Yotaphone to their customers.    Again, it is mafia-style market control.
Only saps believe in some mystical free market where only the bestest ever products are sold (recall Beta vs VHS).  

The best approach for Russia is to sell to the un-west where most humans live and over time it will gain the reputation and the volume
to crush the western market.   Wasting time on the western racket "market" is not justified.    The un-west acounts for most of the
global GDP and is growing.   Eventually the west will be relegated to the sub 15% of global GDP where it belongs.    

Well, yeah, I agree to the extent. I guess if they bribed the grouping of the media companies like Bell and Rogers, they could possibly get the phone into that market. I think selling Yotaphone majority shares to China wasn't such a bad idea in the end, as Rostec and the maker of the phone gets their money back and China does all the marketing for the phone in the nation.

Personally, I think that is how it will go in the future. More and more joint venture companies and co-ownerships of companies between Russia and various other countries, in order to sell their products in the other nations respective markets. You will possibly see Russian companies buying large shares into Chinese companies, vice versa, etc etc etc. They do it so that some of that money can be brought back as well, it becomes more lucrative for them to market it in their respective countries. The mafia structure of the west will end up collapsing when many nations will not want to deal with their companies because they end up with little to no benefit behind the sale of iphones or some kind of Android phone in their respective markets. iPhone sales in Russia brings little to Russian economy and mostly to just apple itself.