2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses

rtech wrote:Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.

Giatsint is was an army level gun and now is a gun of the operational command; it's range wouldn't be in the same class as that of a divisional piece or a brigade level piece.

This is a very fundamental concept in military.

To say Giatsint has the same range as Msta (formerly divisional now brigade level), or anywhere in the same ball park, is like saying that Msta has the same range as the 120 mm mortar (battalion level).

Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.

Giatsint is not a howitzer. It is a gun.

The performance levels that you have posted is lower than that for M-46, its predecessor.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

rtech wrote:Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.

Giatsint is was an army level gun and now is a gun of the operational command; it's range wouldn't be in the same class as that of a divisional piece or a brigade level piece.

This is a very fundamental concept in military.

To say Giatsint has the same range as Msta (formerly divisional now brigade level), or anywhere in the same ball park, is like saying that Msta has the same range as the 120 mm mortar (battalion level).

Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.

Giatsint is not a howitzer. It is a gun.

The performance levels that you have posted is lower than that for M-46, its predecessor.

Yeah its a gun

You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument

According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator

rtech wrote:
You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument

What do you mean by "source"? Somebody's word?

I know what Giatsint's range is not, a lot more than knowing what its range is.

But I'll do some calculations/estimations of its minimum maximum range and post it here.

According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator

Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?

What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
As can be seen the biggest charge is shorter than the projectile.

The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?

Does anyone also see some slight bottle-necking of the case?

Well my source dated 2001 is quoting 28.4KM with 3OF29, 30.5KM with 3OF59 and 37KM with 3OF60 (which seems to be RAP)

The reason for this improvement in range is said to be improved aerodynamics.

My information is from "Russias Arms 2001-2002" which basically comes from the makers of the weapons and equipment. It has separate entries for the different 152mm guns and ammo and describes the 30F59 HeFRAG round in the 2S5 and towed 2A36 guns as having a range of 30.5km.

The only round with a range of 37km in the book is the 30F43 round from the 203mm 2S7 gun and the range is given and 37.4km.

Was your source Russian/Soviet, or was it a western estimate... in my experience western estimates change depending upon the agenda... ie all Soviet artillery has enormous range... we need new guns/ammo, or we just got new guns and their stuff is terribly short ranged in comparison...

The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?

That image is interesting because most of the pictures I have of 152mm propellent charges look like the ones at the top of this page, not the brass cased shell on the previous page.

Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".

That is occasionally true, but far from always.

It is a Russian law that where possible exported items don't have the same performance as domestic products... exceptions were certainly made in the last decade and a half where the Su-30MKI was clearly superior to the Su-27s and Su-27SMs in Russian AF service, but as a general rule it holds true.

What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?

RA is based on makers figures and I find more useful than even the best estimate/guess from Janes.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

rtech wrote:
You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument

What do you mean by "source"? Somebody's word?

I know what Giatsint's range is not, a lot more than knowing what its range is.

But I'll do some calculations/estimations of its minimum maximum range and post it here.

According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator

Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?

What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?

For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.

In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:

Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book

The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?

That image is interesting because most of the pictures I have of 152mm propellent charges look like the ones at the top of this page, not the brass cased shell on the previous page.

The brass case is the large case for 2S5; second image I posted shows the 3OF45 projectile with charges for 2S19 and 2A65.

rtech wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?

For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.

In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:

Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book

Russia's Arm Catalog changed its title in its later editions to those that you referred to.

According to Russia's Arm Catalog, the ranges that you listed correspond to the 3OF45 and 3OF61.

But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.

On another note, the 1992 export prices were US$1,500,000 for 2S5 and US$1,600,000 for 2S19. Bear in mind that 2S5 is one generation older than 2S19, but in terms of range, 2S5 is one class higher than 2S19.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

rtech wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?

For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.

In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:

Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book

Russia's Arm Catalog changed title to those that you named in its later editions.

According to Russia's Arm Catalog, the ranges that you listed correspond to the projectiles I listed above.

But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.

On another note, the 1992 export prices were US$1,500,000 for 2S5 and US$1,600,000 for 2S19. Bear in mind that 2S5 is one generation older than 2S19 but one range class higher than 2S19.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. I dont like your AIG like insinuations that Russians are lying in their sales brochures.

BTW. Vlad79 is/or was MOTOVILIKHA sales guy so you can ask him about range figures

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. I dont like your AIG like insinuations that Russians are lying in their sales brochures.

the difference is that Morpheus thinks they are under reporting performance and that domestic models out perform exported models.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.

There you go its almost like from AIG. Russians lying lying and lying

TR1 wrote:There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.

TR1, can you please direct me to any of these source/s that you are referring to? Thank You.

jhelb wrote:

TR1 wrote:There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.

TR1, can you please direct me to any of these source/s that you are referring to? Thank You.

Just from the top of my head:
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/sovr_sau_01.pdf

If you can read Russian the Russian wiki actually is sourced well.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A15

Most of this stuff isn't secret and by now a large library of good info is available, from articles in serious magazines for example (like Technika and Voroyzhenie")

There you go its almost like from AIG. Russians lying lying and lying

Military information is secret... unless you are a potential customer you don't need to know the truth, so why would they publish the precise figures?

TR1 wrote:

Just from the top of my head:
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/sovr_sau_01.pdf

If you can read Russian the Russian wiki actually is sourced well.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A15

Most of this stuff isn't secret and by now a large library of good info is available, from articles in serious magazines for example (like Technika and Voroyzhenie")

Thanks TR1. Appreciate your quick & detailed response

Just found this page, with lots of interesting information on the 2S5 Hyacinth.

2S5 Hyacinth

It is a 152mm artillery gun that is actually rather more interesting that I actually realised.

A few interesting points is that first its 152mm round is not the same as the 152mm round used in other Soviet guns of the same calibre.

Also it has a good rate of fire for its calibre... 5-6 round per minute.

In Afghanistan its military nickname was "Genocide"... that ranks right up there with the nickname for Su-100 Tank Destroyer from WWII which was nicknamed "F%$#ing end to everything".

Note the article is written in Russian but the link includes a translator so as you scroll down it should translate into English.

I rather suspect they would prefer to give the Syrians more of what they already have so they don't complicate their logistics too much.

Having lots of different 152mm guns can be confusing, and dangerous if different charges and payloads are used for each.


Adding new guns with new ammo with new ballistic performance just complicates things without really adding performance in my view.

I would think it would make more sense for them to keep their own ammo stocks and produce more ammo for themselves rather than export it to allies in conflict.

Having said that their new generation 152mm guns with ranges of 70km with standard rounds and potential to 180kms for perhaps reduced charge rounds with precision guidance kits, the older artillery will become rather less useful, though interestingly the precision guidance kits are smart electronic fuses with control surfaces that use GLONAS signals to guide the round, so these new smart fuses and guidance kits could be used even on old ammo to improve its performance by a significant margin.

It makes all the old ammo precision guided shells, though lacking in range compared with newer rounds, accuracy is vastly more useful than range in many situations... especially with mobile vehicle based artillery that can fire a guided shell and then move off immediately to avoid any return fire.

My understanding is that the 2S5 and the towed gun 2A36 use different ammo from the other 152mm calibre guns and come with full and reduced propelling charges... the former "round" called 3VOF86, and the latter called 3VOF87, which uses the same 30F59 HE Frag projectile to 30.5km...

With the new Coalition with a much longer barrel than the MSTA and also better range (70km for standard shells from about 24km for MSTA standard shells), then perhaps a 2S5 version of the Coalition might be interesting... perhaps with an 80-90km range with standard rounds simply due to a further elongated barrel.

I think the real selling point of new ammo will be the smart fuses that can be attached to old 152mm shells to steer the round to a coordinate within 10m of point of aim any time day or night and in any weather.

I think this will be more valuable that just raw range.

Imagine a battery of 122mm gun armed 2S1 vehicles.... with guided shells they could fire 2-3 rounds at one target and then move off before the first rounds had landed... but these guided shells are not expensive guided shells... they are standard HE rounds using smart fuses with guidance fins to steer the round in flight... less than $1,000 US dollars per fuse to essentially make them precision guided rounds... including old stock rounds already made... because the fuse pockets are normally pretty standard.