medo wrote:
Cobra vehicles are from Turkey.
You forget UH-1 helicopters from US, Grom MANPADs from Poland, SPYDER SAMs from Israel. Harris communication and C3I complex from US, US made ELINT complex in Gori, Radar picture from Turkey and picture from NATO satellites. Also Georgian T-72SIM tanks were modernized by Israel with thermal imager and new FCS, new communications and C3I. Georgian Su-25 were also modernized with Israelis to be compatible with NATO standard.
Although big part of armament were Soviet made, Georgia use NATO communications, C3I, ELINT, command and unit formation structure and NATO strategy and doctrine of warfare.
None of what you mentioned above had any significance in fighting against Russian forces, except of GROM missiles which damaged some Su-25s. UH-1 is only transport and we got what 5-7 maybe ? I don't think they were even used. Spyder was rarely or not used at all, most likely because of lack of experienced crew. Those radar and satellites were used by NATO in first place, not Georgia. Georgians were mostly relying on UAVs and maps. Georgian T-72Sim presense in SO was rendered totaly useless because of lacking tactics and missing collaboration between tanks, infantry and surveilance. Desorientation and fear of Russian aircraft or rumors of it, made most of them crews abandon their vehicles during retreat. Georgian Su-25 made maybe a handfull air sorties before Russians bombardet the runways to prevent further takeoffs, also rendering them completly useless. Communications ? Russians managed to break down communications very early and most of the commands from Georgian side were made via open traffic cell phones, which the Russian side was able to intercept without much effort.
Those radar pictures and NATO satelite pictures didn't do anything but provide NATO with information. That is self explanatory given the fact that Georgians didn't manouvre accordingly to Russian movement. They only took positions that were pre-planned on a map and tried to hold them ....
Georgia have qualitative and quantitative superiority against Russian units[/b]
Quality was absolutly not on our side. That is utter BS. Our troops were neither trained adequately for urban warfare, nor for combined military operations to begin with. Not to talk about total lack of combat experience. There was also no basic combat awareness at all. You just have to watch those plenty of clips out there. Entire battalions hang around carelessly like sitting ducks on open field and streets. They calmly walked around in open streets without expecting any ambush from remaining Ossetian forces and when they got ambushed or there were explosions around, they didn't even react adequately. There was a case where a Georgian squad walked streight into a small Russian BMP column thinking those were Georgians and they got all killed.
flamming_python wrote:
numerical advantige
Russians didn't need numerical advantige. Quality and experience was solely on their side.
They were trained by the US, by the Israelis, had some experienced officers and professionals
who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan
, and by many reports it still had some such Israeli specialists leading and guiding it during the attack.
I take that claim of Israelis guiding attacks as just another tale to discredit them and try to show everyone how they failed and how weak they are etc. I haven't heard of any such thing from Georgians themselves. There were a lot of Israeli specialist, advisors etc deployed there, but they disappeared when the war started as quickly as they came for the outragous summs we payed them ....
The TAE program of US provided anything but limited basic infantry combat training for peacekeeping missions. Georgians did mostly patrols in Iraq, Afghanistan. Only force that was involved in combat situations was SOF, part of rapid response forces in Afghanistan.
Yes Israelis provided training, but those were either limited or unfinished. I've once read a report from one of those israeli specialists you mentioned and he said he knew GAF was aboout to be send into war just hours before it started and they were anything but ready to fight. Also US instructors said the exact same thing. It's just a fact. They were not prepared and trained for a full scale combined military operation, because that's not what they were training them in. Most of the manouvres I saw left me always wondering how they think they gonna beat anyone with such utopia like scenarios. A blind man without having ever heard of war would have seen that. They had no chance.
Russia was only able to send forces through just one tunnel, that the Georgians had every opportunity to interdict but failed to do so.
Only action Georgians did there was a failed attempt to saboutage the tunnel. I have no idea till today why exactly they failed, but the team that was responsible was charged later and I don't know what happened to them next. I once read that there were already charges set up in some parts of the tunnel. But what I guess is that Russians had the tunnel already secured and the Georgian team was forced to withdraw simply.
A bombing run also failed.
Georgian Israeli-upgraded T-72 variants.
as I've already mentioned above, that neither made a big difference, nor did the Georgian tank presence play any decicive role in that conflict. It's only role was sadly reduced to taking the most unnecesarry and humiliating losses.
although Georgia had a good amount of transport and combat helicopters itself.
which also didn't realy play a role in that conflict. But the Mi-24s were used to attack Ossetian positions.
Artillery? Once again Russia didn't have much on hand in Ossetia; Georgia on the other hand had all the heights it commanded before the war, and the heights it seized after the war; it could have placed however many D-30s it wished on them, and in fact it placed a fair few but didn't use them effectively against the Russian forces.
What again proves how badly organized the operation was and I also doubt artillery had sufficient intelligence on anything. Most engagements were up close when some field guns were shooting at the column and those were quickly taken out by shells, arty or airs strike. Even the Pion batteries were deployed and they shot more than 200 rounds in total, but none of them actualy hit anything. At least there is no confirmation from Russian side.
a naval battle occured where Georgia was extremely outclassed/gunned
I have no friggin clue why they even considered to send out those vessels. It was suicide from start. But I've also read suggestions that those had Iglas/Groms on board to attack any Russian aircraft in sight. But even if that was true, it was still a totaly retarded idea that left an entire crew dead.
And the later, air-power, was significant admitedly; Russia had a superiority in fighters, recon aircraft, tactical bombers and all those kept the Georgian UAVs and helicopter fleet grounded, and gave problems to the Georgian Su-25s too.
But then again, this fighting was going on over the Georgia side of the Caucasus mountains; thus it was Georgian air-defenses which posed a threat, and these were perfectly modern - Buk-M1s crewed by Ukrainian crews among them.
Russians really like to downplay the role of their airforce. The Russian airforce took out most of Georgia's communication and satelite stations resulting into the GAF partialy communicating via cell phones which were easily intercepted. Some of the air defence was also taken out by airforce afaik and the Georgian retreat was a slaughterhouse. They basicaly caused half or more of the casualties. A number of APCs, tanks and trucks were destroyed on the way. Their psychological impact was pretty much the main reason why so much equipment was abandoned and left behind. You say Georgian tanks were superior, but Georgia had a good portion of it's tanks left in the bases because they still needed repairs. Ukraine shipped mostly tanks that had either a broken engine or other malfunctions. That was the deal. Georgia payed much less but had to fix them itself.
Having said that all, you still can't imagine in what bad shape they were. The few dozen experts and special forces couldn't make up for the entire army, that didn't work.
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