Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

i know I wanted to write supersonic, but i made a mistake. Fixing it now in the text

Well with new fuel the Onyx is reportedly able to fly further and faster... why wouldn't older missiles improve performance the same?

I would imagine a 7 ton Granit is mostly fuel so improved energy fuel should significantly improve its performance... it uses a ramjet engine so the throttle could be used intelligently to maximise performance (speed and range)...

jhelb wrote:

Isos wrote:China has build the last 15 years a huge fleet and they just annouced they will switch production for bigger ships only, like WTF, they already build a shiton of big ships with plenty of VLS. In 15 years they will be 2x bigger than US navy.

Russia on the other hand is not focusing on building bigger ships. They are building smaller ships, because in their assessment, small ships are the future.

China does not have a formidable foe in Asia. Countries like Japan and India are pushovers.

Russia needs ships to protect its borders. Not control the world like US failed to with 700 billion $ budget. For that smaller ships with uksk able to launch hypersonic missiles is enough.

. For now, they are building very slowly small frigates of type 22350. Since 2006, they have launched two such frigates. It's a parody. Where to them to the great destroyers. Maybe in 2050 we will see the first Russian destroyer with a displacement of 12,000 tons. In addition, now the military budget will be cut, because a lot of money will go to social. There is no question of any Russian navy for the next decades  only small rocket ships and submarines. In a few years they will tire out another 2 units 22350. Every country that wants to count needs a powerful navy. That's why the US has a huge navy, that's why China is building over 25 destroyers at once, not two frigates for 15 years. Russia has no industry to build a fleet and is too poor for it.

For now, they are building very slowly small frigates of type 22350. Since 2006, they have launched two such frigates. It's a parody.

I don't see the US pumping out Ford class carriers or Zumwalt destroyers or LCA frigate substitutes... do you think it might be because they are brand new designs that are totally untested that are more complicated than one copy of Microsoft Windows that need to be tested and checked and assessed to be good enough for an enormous range of jobs in a range of environments?

Do you think the English might feel the same when finding their engine cooling system works in the north atlantic but not in the warmer waters of the med... and how many thousands of ships have they produced in the last 30 years?

Once they get the design and mix of weapons and sensors working properly they can increase production and then look at the export market too, but mass producing a type before the first one even hits the water is stupid unless you are very confident about the systems and equipment... China can be confident about their systems and equipment because most of it is based on Russian stuff.

Where to them to the great destroyers. Maybe in 2050 we will see the first Russian destroyer with a displacement of 12,000 tons.

They already have several destroyer and two cruiser sized vessels that will be fine for the next decade as front line vessels and then next two or three decades as reserve vessels.

In addition, now the military budget will be cut, because a lot of money will go to social.

Having large numbers of brand new destroyers and brand new cruisers and brand new CVNs would mean the budget could not be cut and would need to be massively expanded in fact... and the brand new nature of most of the technology would mean they would be terribly unreliable... they might end up with a whole lot of Ford juniors and Zumwalt juniors... but rather cheaper... though no less of an economic burden to Russia.

There is no question of any Russian navy for the next decades only small rocket ships and submarines.

One of their current Frigates could take on and probably defeat any Naval fleet the British chose to send to the Arctic... even more so when those 16 missiles are Zircons... so I guess if the Russian navy is crap, then the Royal Navy is worse...

In a few years they will tire out another 2 units 22350. Every country that wants to count needs a powerful navy.

The escape of the UK from the EU will change things rather dramatically over the next few years... alone and scared the UK is going to want to establish closer ties to all sorts of countries outside the west... they will want closer ties with the US but not too close because no one likes rapey rapey American that much... but they are also going to have to change their relationship with both Russia and China or they really are in the shit...

We will see how things go, but I would expect the new sailors in the Russian Navy will be getting all sorts of new technology and gear, while British sailors will be hearing about this budget and that budget being cut so they can't do this any more...

That's why the US has a huge navy, that's why China is building over 25 destroyers at once, not two frigates for 15 years. Russia has no industry to build a fleet and is too poor for it.

The Russians could have easily built 25 destroyers if they wanted to go for slightly upgraded old models... they made quite a few for India quickly enough.

Russia has no need for a Soviet sized fleet, and no long range foreign partnerships that requires a blue sea navy right now.

They are building up their skills and fleet and they are doing it sensibly without pissing away money like the US Navy clearly is... I mean 13 billion for one CVN, plus 15 billion for three Zumwalt ships and about 17 billion for the LCA fiasco... that is more than the entire Russian military budget for the year... and none of them will be useful in the next half decade. Of course nothing compared with the 1.5 trillion spent on the F-35...

BTW the Russians tried to speed up things with Chinese diesel engines based on German models they could no longer buy and they turned out to be totally unreliable and offer nothing like the performance and reliability of the German models... which is fine... there is a reason Germany sells diesel engines... they make good ones, so for those unable to buy them their options are limited... Russia went for Chiense diesels and it was a mistake.

Russia probably could have made their own diesels and they could have been just as unreliable... but they could have spent money working and developing them to make them reliable... there is no point in waiting for China to make their diesels reliable... which they no doubt will eventually... for their own use and export use, but for now their name in diesel engines is not good... but I am sure that will be corrected... but it is in Russian interests to sort out diesel engine production for themselves.

Their current methodology is related families of things... engines, ships, weapons, etc etc, so developing a new diesel engine means a scalable one that can be used for small things like small boats and aircraft etc, but using the same basic design in much larger platforms scaled up... it will take longer than just making one engine but in the long term it means a family range of engines developed much cheaper and enabling a wider variety of related parts and systems, unifying use and maintainence and support across the range of engine sizes.

It is the same with their Army vehicles... in the past they developed a BMP and a BTR and a T series tank and also had a range of other vehicle types like MTLB and various variants of the BMP and BTR and T series vehicles for mine clearing and engineer and even artillery and anti aircraft use (MSTA and ZSU-57-2 both used T series tank chassis). They have now unified their designs into four basic platforms... Armata heavy tracked, Kurganets medium tracked, Boomerang medium wheeled and Typhoon light wheeled vehicle families and eventually all their support vehicles will be based on these platforms... it will take quite a while but the benefits are clear.

It is the same with their ships... they can and are building ships, but they don't need thousands of ships so production of the level of China right now would be absurd because in 10 years when they have built destroyers and cruisers and CVNs... then what do they do? Those ships will last 30 years so all that production capacity would be sitting idle... so not only expensive but rapidly making itself redundant. Also while making all these ships they wont be able to make other ships that are needed like icebreakers and tankers and large gas carriers....

Doing it slowly is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of longer term planning and a very different situation and set of goals. China clearly wants to dominate its local waters and it needs lots of ships very quickly to do so... this will have European powers scared and the US upset because they liked to talk about large stretches of ocean as being in their total control and this will change that.... boo hoo... screw them...

The massive build up of Chinese ships is no threat to Russia... they are building destroyers and carriers... so what?

Chinese destroyers, frigates etc might not be able to withstand the warm waters of Asia and Africa. Because their engines are not suited for tropical climate. British destroyers broke down in the gulf several times.

This sort of thing happens when you rush production and proper testing... of course some times it can't be helped...

Understandable for the Lider but Gorshkov M was supposed to be only a taller Gorshkov. It's not a hard thing to do and cost should have been easily controlled because only engine would be different with more structure at mid ship and more but same weapons.

kvs wrote:If the Lider is being dropped, then the Gorshkov M series is going to be suspended too.   If the latter was designed based on
assuming the procurement of the former, then it is defunct.   A new design to replace both the Lider and the Gorshkov M is
needed.  

All these media sources are such crap.   They feed sensationalist clickbait fragments that are basically worthless.

They already proposed the project 21956 which is based on Udaloy design/size. A same upgrade as they did with Krivak/Grigorovitch. That would need a redesign to include new tech but would be a very good replacement for Slava/Udaloy/Sovs.

They are upgrading their udaloys so they have experience with this design. But the best would be a Gorshkov M since it is similar to the Gorshkov.