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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:47 pm

    Rmf wrote:Russia's Angara5v may not have enough launch capacity for robust lunar missions.
    If Russia really wants a more capable rocket for lunar missions, it needs a Zenit Heavy.
    Admittedly the RD-171 engine isn't the most reliable or highest build quality, but if you were to substitute in four higher-quality rd-191 engines per core, you could get engine-out reliability.  It'd also let NPO Energomash max out RD-191 production numbers.  A Zenit Heavy (kerosine or methane version) ought to lift more to TLI than an Angara 5v even before adding in a LH2 upper stage.  This would be a much easier option than building an all-new mega rocket.
    that energia -5kv with 105,3t to leo is interesting with 5 zenit in booster core ,and hydrogen 2nd stage.

    LH2 Angara upper stage is on ice for now, probably permanently. Makes sense because that version was supposed to act as replacement for super-heavy rocket when it was suspended but with Fenix project now in development there is no pressing need for it anymore.

    Angara5 & Federation capsule (PTK/NP, might as well start using official new name from now on) will service LEO.

    Federation capsule & Fenix super heavy (whichever option they go with) will be used for flights beyond Earth's orbit. And heavy cargo of course.
    Book.
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    Post  Book. Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:29 pm

    Russia’s new manned spacecraft to be 3.5 times cheaper than US Dragon
    Russian Aviaton » Sunday January 24, 2016 13:18 MSK

    http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2016/1/24/4767/


    Russia’s State Corporation Roscosmos intends to spend over 58 billion rubles ($734 million) on a new manned spacecraft or 3.5 times less than NASA has allocated to SpaceX on the Dragon space vehicle, according to a document published on Friday.

    The funds for the project to develop the new manned spacecraft called Federation are stipulated in a draft federal space program for 2016-2025 prepared for submission to the Russian government.

    Under the document, 58 billion rubles will be spent on R&D work to develop the ‘promising manned transport system’ through 2025, or 8 billion rubles ($101 million) less than was planned last year.

    As was reported earlier, SpaceX will receive $2.6 billion from NASA to develop the Dragon 2 manned spaceship. Meanwhile, the development of the new Russian space vehicle will cost just $734 million.

    Russia plans to launch the Federation space vehicle in 2021. Subsequent launches to the International Space Station in the manned and unmanned modes are scheduled for 2023.

    A space vehicle to fly around the Moon will be created in 2024-2025 and the flight is planned after 2025. The previous draft federal space program stipulated financing in the amount of 66.689 billion rubles ($844 million) before budget cuts.

    The manned flight to the International Space Station was planned in 2024 and the spacecraft was expected to fly around the Moon in 2025. The promising new-generation transport spaceship developed by Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation is designed to deliver humans and cargoes to the Moon and near-Earth orbital stations The spacecraft will have a crew of up to four persons.

    The new space vehicle will be able to operate autonomously for up to 30 days and its flight as part of an orbital station can last up to one year. The Angara-A5V heavy-class rocket is expected for use to deliver the new spacecraft into orbit.

    Low the cost russia
    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:45 pm

    Media reports said earlier that Russia’s Defense Ministry planned to give up the use of Rokot carrier rockets in favor of the Angara-1.2 and Soyuz-2.1v light carrier rockets

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/854018
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:20 am

    George1 wrote:Media reports said earlier that Russia’s Defense Ministry planned to give up the use of Rokot carrier rockets in favor of the Angara-1.2 and Soyuz-2.1v light carrier rockets

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/854018
    Good decision. Abandon ANY use of Ukropistani-origin hardware, and sever any and all sources of revenue from Soviet-era related legacy hardware.

    Its a bit of a pity as there is little more spectacular than watching a Dnepr launcher pop out of his (her?) silo and ignite the engines while hanging in the sky... a blast and a roar and away it goes with megatons of thermonuclear death all gift-wrapped for the US Elite parasites... errr, wait... make that a satellite payload.... /snark off
    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:09 pm

    Russia to develop new Fenix carrier rocket by 2025

    Fenix will be the first stage for a promising super-heavy carrier rocket

    MOSCOW, March 30. /TASS/. Russia’s Space Corporation Roscosmos plans to expedite the development of a new medium-class carrier rocket Fenix to make it ready by 2025, Roscosmos Head Igor Komarov said on Wednesday.

    "The timeframe is until 2025. During this year [2016], we’ll again analyze, on which basis the rocket will be made. We have the intentions to make it until 2025. We see that the market and life require expediting this project," Komarov said.

    The Roscosmos CEO said earlier on Wednesday that Fenix "will be the first stage for a promising super-heavy carrier rocket."
    Russia’s super-heavy rocket project not to pay back

    According to Komarov, Russia’s super-heavy carrier rocket project will not pay back, as the real consumers for it will appear in about a decade.

    "[The project] will definitely not pay back," he said.

    According to Komarov, "There will be no real consumers over the next 10 years" for this rocket. "There will be no commercial use (of the carrier rocket) much longer - for 15-20 [years], I think," said the Roscosmos chief.

    He also said that the country’s Federal Space Program for 2016-2025 envisages no payloads requiring a super-heavy class rocket.

    Komarov added that Russia has the technology to implement this project. The development of the medium-class rocket Fenix (Phoenix) is the beginning of "the thorny path towards the creation of a super-heavy class launch vehicle," the Roscosmos head said. He said earlier on Wednesday that Fenix will be used as the super-heavy rocket’s first stage.

    Roscosmos is expected to spend about 30 billion rubles ($440 million) on the Fenix development. According to preliminary data, the carrier rocket should be a single-block space vehicle capable of delivering at least 9 tons of payloads into the low near-Earth orbit. The Feniks carrier rocket will fire liquefied natural gas. It was reported earlier that the R&D work on the new carrier rocket could start in 2017 or 2018.


    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/866046
    George1
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    Post  George1 Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:48 pm

    All future Russian launch vehicle (beginning with Angara) will be named after Siberia & Far East rivers

    https://twitter.com/KURYERSAT/status/715229951822311425
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:07 pm

    phoenix seems like duplication to angara.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:54 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:I find it extremely hard to believe that Russia needs to rely on foreign suppliers of hydrazine, ...

    I agree with your point here; however, it is the UDMH that is used in large volumes in Russia. Russia's use of hydrazine as a rocket propellant is probably very limited and is probably only for some niche upper stage/payload applications. They have also been probably using many replacements for hydrazine, both in rocketry and in its other applications.
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    Vann7


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    Post  Vann7 Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:44 pm

    George1 wrote:

    According to Komarov, Russia’s super-heavy carrier rocket project will not pay back, as the real consumers for it will appear in about a decade.

    "[The project] will definitely not pay back," he said.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/866046


    What a fool.

    If Russia all it does is supplying cargo to the ISS ,then it will not find clients for any
    super heavy rockets . But if Russia goes ahead and move to the moon or mars and create and master traveling to the moon and mars and even create a small landing base ,then
    the demand for Super heavy rockets will show up.

    In Humanity , there is not a single country in the world or a single human that will not love
    once in a lifetime to have a chance to travel safely to space safely and even more to orbit around the moon in a rocket. How many billionaires exist that will love to give a billion dollars for a ticket to the moon orbit and return? With a super heavy rocket you could even lower the prices if get many people at same time. Create the first space agency in the world.
    But the Russian Government and Putin continue with their short vision about the possibilities
    of what can be done if they were much more aggressive in space .

    Russians soviet mentality for attractive business is terrible. You dont wait for clients to show up. You create the demand by making ,inventing or doing something new never done before and that everyone will like to try..

    By the logic of him the plane will have been never invented ,because there was no client for
    it ,when it first was created.  Rolling Eyes but now everyone travel normally by plane across continents in hours thanks to the ambitions of scientist.  Electricity when it was invented ,did not had any
    clients either but look today ,how people cannot live without it. and is normal for the entire world. It was the invention of the plane ,when there was no need for it ,what created the Huge Demand for plane traveling. and not the other way.


    This is the reason Russia space program is just stuck as a taxi driver to the ISS with Russians with so dated mentality .  Russia needs to push forward ,invest heavily
    on its space program and aim for travels to space to other planets or satellites. and the
    clients they dont see now will show up in the thousands.  When Russia master the traveling to beyond earth orbit. With the 50 Billions $$ Russia spend in Sochi olympics , they could have instead spend 10 billion$ and get the other 40billions for a very ambitious space program ,including a new Space Station made by Russia and that covers Russia territory and a small landing base in the moon for research.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:08 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:I find it extremely hard to believe that Russia needs to rely on foreign suppliers of hydrazine, ...

    I agree with your point here; however, it is the UDMH that is used in large volumes in Russia. Russia's use of hydrazine as a rocket propellant is probably very limited and is probably only for some niche upper stage/payload applications. They have also been probably using many replacements for hydrazine, both in rocketry and in its other applications.

    Ah, yes of course Very Happy I should have realised the article was regarding "ordinary" hydrazine and not UDMH. Thanks for the clarification!
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:59 pm

    they want another type of engine, with different fuel, and duplication of launchers since payload weights will be simmilar ,and more workforce needed to be payed ,so the industial complex and energia can milk more money from tiny space funds?
    this waste has to stop.
    its hard to manrate angara since its working on technical edge ,thats why rus-m was planned but this? hopefully it will be cancelled like rus-m project...
    And all that after they plan to manrate angara -somehow- anyway. which is another squandering or resourses but hey....lobbies corruption ....
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:44 am

    Rmf wrote:they want another type of engine, with different fuel, and duplication of launchers since payload weights will be simmilar ,and more workforce needed to be payed ,so the industial complex and energia can milk more money from tiny space funds?
    this waste has to stop.
    its hard to manrate angara since its working on technical edge ,thats why rus-m was planned but this? hopefully it will be cancelled like rus-m project...
    And all that after they plan to manrate angara -somehow- anyway. which is another squandering or resourses but hey....lobbies corruption ....

    What exactly is your issue with a man-rated Angara-5P?  In your opinion, why would man-rating an Angara stack be difficult?  Man-rating is a question of reliability, emergency recovery modes and vibration environment, and I see no reason why Angara architecture should be especially hard to man-rate?

    I also do not see this proposed "Fenix" launcher as being a duplication of Angara, especially since we have no firm details on its configuration. It sounds like Fenix will be the core component of a future SHLV, so would be a Heavy-class launcher in its most basic (and initial operating) condition. It would not be a duplication of Angara as unlike Angara it would be scalable to 100+ ton to LEO.

    If I had to predict, I'd expect Fenix might be a ~5.0m dia core with methalox engines, and up-rated by strap-on URM-1 blocks (or a methalox version) and large-diameter upper stages? I'd expect manufacture in new facilities located in the Far East to mitigate transport issues (eg to avoid limitations on core size due to rail tunnel constraints) or possible air transport from European Russia.

    In any case, as with all things pertaining to the Russian space program, only time will tell dunno
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:03 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Rmf wrote:they want another type of engine, with different fuel, and duplication of launchers since payload weights will be simmilar ,and more workforce needed to be payed ,so the industial complex and energia can milk more money from tiny space funds?
    this waste has to stop.
    its hard to manrate angara since its working on technical edge ,thats why rus-m was planned but this? hopefully it will be cancelled like rus-m project...
    And all that after they plan to manrate angara -somehow- anyway. which is another squandering or resourses but hey....lobbies corruption ....

    What exactly is your issue with a man-rated Angara-5P?  In your opinion, why would man-rating an Angara stack be difficult?  Man-rating is a question of reliability, emergency recovery modes and vibration environment, and I see no reason why Angara architecture should be especially hard to man-rate?

    I also do not see this proposed "Fenix" launcher as being a duplication of Angara, especially since we have no firm details on its configuration.  It sounds like Fenix will be the core component of a future SHLV, so would be a Heavy-class launcher in its most basic (and initial operating) condition.  It would not be a duplication of Angara as unlike Angara it would be scalable to 100+ ton to LEO.

    If I had to predict, I'd expect Fenix might be a ~5.0m dia core with methalox engines, and up-rated by strap-on URM-1 blocks (or a methalox version) and large-diameter upper stages? I'd expect manufacture in new facilities located in the Far East to mitigate transport issues (eg to avoid limitations on core size due to rail tunnel constraints) or possible air transport from European Russia.

    In any case, as with all things pertaining to the Russian space program, only time will tell  dunno

    You are trying to engage in a rational discussion with a clown who claimed the last Angara test launch involved the rocket "swaying unstably" during initial liftoff.
    This retard could not process the fish-eye distortion of the camera filming the launch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAH-O-cTUrg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIGKMO_twoc

    Case closed.


    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:10 am

    there are, phoenix mentioned here on 2nd page and other pages look up dont be lazy   Rolling Eyes
    its pure duplication to create artificial jobs after soyuz retirement...
    manrating angara will be hard.... now its not manrated. why wouldnt it be from start if it was that easy? rus-m was to be man rated not angara. so manrating angara as an afterthought will cost and take time.
    the deviations at angara launch were within boundaries. so? digital camera have distorsion?? or maybe some retarded camera from the 80s yes you are correct.... too bad butthurt is too strong in you to be objective.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:33 am

    Rmf wrote:there are, phoenix mentioned here on 2nd page and other pages look up dont be lazy   Rolling Eyes
    its pure duplication to create artificial jobs after soyuz retirement...
    manrating angara will be hard.... now its not manrated. why wouldnt it be from start if it was that easy? rus-m was to be man rated not angara. so manrating angara as an afterthought will cost and take time.
    the deviations at angara launch were within boundaries. so? digital camera have distorsion?? or maybe some retarded camera from the 80s yes you are correct.... too bad butthurt is too strong in you to be objective.

    There is a lot of conjecture about Fenix/Pheonix, and right now its too soon to say what the config will be. There was talk about Fenix being a development of Progress' Soyuz-5 methalox proposal, but now also talk of re-engineered Zenit with new methalox engines. Talk about Fenix being a basis for a future SHLV simply confuses the mess...

    I'll revise my previous guess-timate and suggest that Fenix base config may likely appear as a single stack (eg delivering 9 Ton to 200km LEO like the Soyuz 5.1 concept), but able to be clustered in a modular SHLV 1st stage as per the Energia-5K or Khrunichev Kaskad concepts. Kind of like an Angara on steroids with larger building blocks than the URM-1, and while I'd like to see russia develop and field a 5.0m dia vehicle, I think the modular approach is superior and certainly more flexible.

    Again, time will tell.... russia
    Rmf
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    Post  Rmf Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:10 pm

    well i arrived at simmilar conclusions over time instead old mix of everything they are building new mix of everything ,
    they should go for universal rocket engine concept!!!!
    and then develop like in mig / sukhoi fighter competition - light URM with single engine and heavy URM with 4 engines, for boosters ... and everything is launched with this 2 types of rockets.
    then you have true mass production ,good control ,and educating new staff is easier.
    sounds radical in industial organisation , but its very conservative technicaly.
    also everything should run on single fuel type too kerosine + oxygen on all stages.
    best expertise there , ditch everything else.... and hydrogen but only for upper stages and in some cases -heaviest versions some intermediate versions.
    urm-2 too would use 1 or 2 same engines depending if its  light or heavy variant.
    currently block -d 3rd stage is already built in krasnoyarsk in central siberia and in omsk in western siberia is building angara modules.

    so how large should hevay urm be? urm-1 diamether is 2,9m ,so if you want to double volume with same height just multiply with sqrt of 2.
    2,9*1,41= 4,089m and if you look at it energia proposal had large boosters with 4,1m (diamether like proton) and then doubleing the height giving 4 times volume thus you have fuel and could put 4 engines there.

    each engine would have its own pump be some upgraded version of nk-33-1 or rd-193 , there could be direct competition there with reliability ,cost and technical characteristics being main criteria... the winner would build 140-200 engines per year and that is true mass production.
    after you have engine thrust set and picked, and urms scaled properly ! you can have large scope to send from 3+ tonns to leo to 100 tonns to leo.
    streaching limits of angara is hard beyond certain point and it cant do it it has to be divided into slightly lighter and heavy versions.
    why lighter well rd-193 has 192t of thrust which is high ,engine should be in 170-180t  range.  so it can be scaled properly.  also with lower chamber pressure it would be easier to manrate all versions....and urm -1 should be smaller to compensate, from 171t from angaras urm to 145t tonns (payload at same fraction like angara a-1 would be 3,3 t to leo) .

    zenit has 4 chamber 720t engine and that is 4* 180t. so it would fit right in. zenit has other problem- currently zenit has too much thrust at take off because it was meant to lift energia and its hydrogen core engines give low thrust but burn for a long time. so they immitate partialy shuttle solids.
    heavy urm should be larger then zenits 450t , about 550t. then you have thrust to weight in 1,3 which is ok because it then you can put large hydrogen upper stage with no problem. thus you have 5 heavy URM version pushing from 75t with kerosine upper stage, to 100t with hydrogen.

    problem in angara i point is in their booster modules have thrust to weight 192/171=1,12. so that means you cant put anything very heavy on top of it. thats why angara a5v wont work its a design limit and fundamental flaw of the concept. emptying whole stack with core stage wont work you want core stage to work as long as it can or your altituide you start hydrogen stage burn is lower and you have problems.
    i have on another forum work out things in most aspects....its exciting time because this is the moment you send everything old to museum and starting new but lobbies and corrruption and positioning and egos are destroying the chanse to fundamentaly modernise and start with realy good concepts.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:37 am

    According to Atlantic-Integrationist clown Anatoly Zak, Russia is looking at a Zenit replacement in the 17T to LEO category to serve as the basis for Baiterek, and whose 1st stage could be used as a module in a future Russian SHLV (much the same as a URM-01 is the basis for the Angara family). Sounds like this could be related to the Fenix project, or an evolution of the Fenix concept to maintain the usefulness of the Baikonur infrastructure into the future.

    Russia charts new path to super rocket

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 8 Sunkar_1

    Project history

    The loss of Zenit left a gap in the payload range of the Russian rocket fleet, in particular its ability to deliver mid-size communications satellites with a mass of under five tons into the geostationary transfer orbit, GTO. The death of Zenit also further stalled a decade-long Russian-Kazakh venture known as Baiterek, aiming to bring a new-generation commercial launcher to the Baikonur Cosmodrome.

    On January 26-27, 2016, representatives of Roskosmos met with their Kazakh counterparts to discuss the fate of the Baiterek project and directed the industry to consider various alternatives to Zenit. By the middle of the year, the industry came up with a concept dubbed Sunkar, or "falcon" in Kazakh.

    At the heart of the new design was the idea to enlarge the diameter of the Zenit rocket from 3.8 to 4.1 meters, so it could match the "caliber" of the Proton rocket. As a result, the Proton's production machinery could be re-used with relatively few upgrades to manufacture the new-generation launcher, after its predecessor's planned retirement in mid-2020s.

    Unlike Proton, all stages on Sunkar would burn non-toxic kerosene and liquid oxygen, as it had long been insisted upon by the Kazakh government.

    The Sunkar could utilize the existing launch and processing infrastructure for the Zenit rocket in Baikonur, which could be funded by Kazakhstan.

    In the commercial launch market, the Sunkar should replace the yet-to-be-built Proton-Light variant, delivering mid-size satellites, while Angara-5 would take over duties of the Proton-M version carrying the heaviest payloads.

    Ironically, the proposal to develop yet another type of space launcher essentially reverses the previous strategy at GKNPTs Khrunichev of relying on a modular architecture of the Angara family to cover the entire spectrum of space payloads. However, unlike Angara's standard booster, URM-1, the first stage of the Sunkar rocket will be large enough to serve as a building block for a future super-heavy rocket, reaching payloads of at least 80 tons, so it could serve as the main vehicle for the deep-space exploration program. Therefore, the Sunkar proposal can be considered as the first step in building a more powerful family of space rockets in Russia.

    Fatter Zenit

    Both stages of the Sunkar rocket will feature a diameter of 4.1 meters, allowing their shipment to Baikonur by rail. However that economic method of delivery would not be an option for the new Russian launch site in Vostochny due to various bottlenecks at tunnels and bridges.

    The first stage of the Sunkar booster would be propelled by a modified four-chamber RD-171 engine, inherited from Zenit. Alternatively, a pair of two-chamber RD-180 engines could be employed to generate an equal amount of thrust.

    The first stage will be equipped with an aft section with a diameter of 3.68 meters, matching the dimensions of the Zenit rocket and housing the similar propulsion system, in order to make the Sunkar compatible with the most of Zenit's ground infrastructure.

    Second stage

    The second stage of the Sunkar launch vehicle will be propelled by a pair of four-chamber RD-0124A engines, largely borrowed from the URM-2 booster in the Angara family. Although this newly improvised propulsion system wielding eight combustion chambers is not an example of simplicity, it allows to keep the length of the second stage to an absolute minimum, while still providing an unmatched efficiency. Not to mention, the RD-0124 engine is already available and was thoroughly flight tested on the Soyuz-2-1b and Angara rockets.

    Unfortunately, the new rocket could not take advantage of Angara's URM-2 stage itself, because it would be too small for a vehicle of that size.

    Third stage

    The existing variant of the Block-D space tug, such as Block DM-03, which employs the same propellant as the lower booster stages, is expected to serve as the third stage on the Sunkar booster. It will have the task of completing the orbital insertion into the initial parking orbit and then pushing its cargo to the geostationary transfer orbit or to the proper geostationary orbit.

    Chances for implementation

    The development of the Sunkar rocket could be folded into the Feniks project, which was to be funded within the Russian Federal Space Program extending from 2016 to 2025 and aimed at developing a new-generation rocket to replace the Soyuz family. Another contender for federal funds within the Feniks program was the Soyuz-5 proposal from RKTs Progress, which builds all Soyuz rockets. However after the conflict with Ukraine had began in 2014, the Feniks was apparently steered toward building an equivalent of the Zenit rocket inside Russia.

    The authors of the Sunkar proposal believed that if approved in the near future, the new rocket could be ready for launch from an upgraded launch facility at Site 45 at the beginning of 2024 and start commercial missions from Baikonur a year and a half later, right around the time of the Proton's retirement.

    The manufacturing of the rocket could be distributed between various industrial centers in Russia, with RKTs Progress in Samara likely taking the leading role, possibly relying on available manufacturing base inherited from the Energia program.

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/sunkar.html
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:42 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:According to Atlantic-Integrationist clown Anatoly Zak, Russia is looking at a Zenit replacement in the 17T to LEO category to serve as the basis for Baiterek, and whose 1st stage could be used as a module in a future Russian SHLV (much the same as a URM-01 is the basis for the Angara family). Sounds like this could be related to the Fenix project, or an evolution of the Fenix concept to maintain the usefulness of the Baikonur infrastructure into the future.

    Russia charts new path to super rocket

    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News - Page 8 Sunkar_1


    It is nice to see this project.   Russia does not need some additional Soyuz replacement.   Angara can do the job just fine.   Modules based on
    the RD-170 or update should be a priority to have the flexibility to build a 100 ton payload class launcher.   I would call this the right-sized
    Angara variant.

    Note how Zak always harps about the diameter of the rockets and that they can't make it to Vostochny via train.   Who the fuck cares!
    If they are so desperate to launch from there they should ship them by boat through the Arctic Ocean following the Russian coastline.  
    He also keeps harping about Russian rocket manufacturers trying to save costs by recycling old tech.   This clown should look at the
    US SLS:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Launch_System  

    It's a freaking Shuttle component rehash.   They moved the engines from the retired Shuttle into the main tank and use the same solid
    rocket boosters.   Zak must have stars in his eyes from all this dramatic innovation.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:53 am


    Zak is a fucking retard. I am glad someone else also noticed his train fetish. Why the fuck would trains be an issue in this day and age when you have cargo aircraft? Moron thinks it's still 1950's or something.

    Russia will be making those rockets as wide as they need them to be.

    That obsession of his with diameter of large cylindrical objects must imply some suppressed subconscious urge.

    And he never misses opportunity to harp about Ukraine. He just can't swallow the fact that Ukraine got left behind to suck it's own dick. They will not be making anything more complex than fertilizer ever again.
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    Post  Rmf Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:38 am

    just as i was predicting its a great rocket proposal. simmilar to zenit but with some differences , they increased size of 1st stage which is good , but choice of engines is not good , it should use same engines from angara rd-192, but 4. that way you have universal single engine for evey launcher. also only kerosine and oxygen is used in all stages which is good.
    i guess railroad is good for transport up to novosibisk in central siberia , from there its not very far , 3000km , they could transport it by plane an-225  ,2 rockets - 1 inside and 1 on its back to vostochny.
    but other thing strikes me , 2024? Holy damn , what has become of the Russian space program? its ruined??

    Engines are ready; fuel tank factory is ready; launch facilities are basically ready; command and control is ready; why the hell would take 7+ years?
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    Post  Rmf Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:25 am

    by the way, in kazahstan language sunkar = falcon Wink
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:21 am

    Rmf wrote:just as i was predicting its a great rocket proposal. simmilar to zenit but with some differences , they increased size of 1st stage which is good , but choice of engines is not good , it should use same engines from angara rd-192, but 4. that way you have universal single engine for evey launcher. also only kerosine and oxygen is used in all stages which is good.
    i guess railroad is good for transport up to novosibisk in central siberia , from there its not very far , 3000km , they could transport it by plane an-225  ,2 rockets - 1 inside and 1 on its back to vostochny.
    but other thing strikes me , 2024? Holy damn , what has become of the Russian space program? its ruined??

    Engines are ready; fuel tank factory is ready; launch facilities are basically ready; command and control is ready; why the hell would take 7+ years?
    Good points, but I don't belive that you can fit 4x RD-191 in a 4.1m diameter core (RD-192 is the proposed methalox version).

    Not sure why you think 7 years is unreasonable. Russia doesn't have existing production facilities for a Zenit class vehicle as Zenit was built in Ukraine by Yuzhmash. I'd expect this vehicle should be built by Krunichev as an up-scaled version of Angara using same design methodology, manufacturing techniques and sub-components wherever possible. Build a new plant at Omsk alongside the new Angara plant, that way you leverage the Angara infrastructure to it maximum extent.

    Regarding launch facilities, a new pad will be required. It unlikely Russia will want to modify the sole Zenit pad at Baikonur, and this pad couldn't be adapted to the stacked heavy versions in any case. One option could be design an upsized Angara-style pad capable of handing both Angara and Feniks/Sunkar/Whatever and building this at Vostochny inplace of the planned 2nd Angara pad?
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    Post  kvs Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:46 pm

    The whole point of this project is to leverage the RD-170 class engine technology that Russia possesses. Obviously the RD-170 will
    be upgraded as well.

    It takes several years just to build new launch facilities and this rocket will require a new launch pad design. The main thing is for
    them to get started instead of delaying the project based on various pretexts.
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    Post  Rmf Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:18 pm

    ukraine was producing tanks and integration but engines were made in russia. never the less its moot point , when russia has rd-191 , my mistake not rd-192. its 1,92 MegaNewtn thrust which is compact and derivative of rd-171 itself. it can fit . it has less weight 4 combined then rd-171. and more slightly thrust which they want. that way you have mass production what they wanted all along....

    see how stupid soyuz launch pad is in vostochny now>? billions blown for nothing.... instead angara and sunkar launch pads should have been built.you cant built launch pad for angara + sunkar all in 1. sunkar is 4 times larger.
    sunkar should be built in 4 years max , and launch pad too. they have zenit plans,engines, manufacture big tanks , everything... 7 years and with more delays it will probably be 10 years= massive coruption and siphoning of scarse resourses.

    also look how they improved sunkar and rectify flaws from zenit , increase in fuel (and weight) of 9% but payload increase in 25%.
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    Post  Rmf Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:53 pm

    Ofcourse no point in talking without some graphycs so people know what is about and have a perspective.
    in the picture is angara-a5 with kvtk hydrogen upper stage ,stacked large sunkar launcher proposal and single sunkar rocket .... see how kvtk fits sunkar launcher much better.
    now some rough calculations....
    sunkar using only oxygen+kerosine in all stages  -80+ tons to LEO.
    sunkar launcher but with `10% increase in engine power to rd-171 and larger kerosine third stage - 105tonns .
    sunkar using  hydrogen 3rd  stage  (3rd stage would be larger then in picture , larger then angaras)--110t.
    sunkar with 10% increase in engine power of rd-171 , and even larger hydrogen 3rd stage - 150t.

    so very good flexibility,.... this thing sets you to moon in 1 shot.... angara can never match this.

    i think building a sunkar launch pad in kazahstan although its using their money for launch pad is bad idea... it should be built in russia - vostochny.
    zenith was built in mind to replace soyuz by the end of 90s if ussr still existed , they still fly it and blow money on that pit in vostochny with no real reason, nore mission.
    thats got to stop. if presidential decree is needed to brake lobbies and send soyuz and proton to history finally and focus on these 2 launchers and single engine type- exclusively.  (and hydrogen for smaller third stages) so be it , putin has to be decicive and firm.

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