Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

Angara is poised for more launches. I'm not sure on the delays but we do know from 2019 to 2020 they were working on the mass production of components.

As for Federation and Soyuz, not sure either. I doubt they are scrapped but unless said otherwise, also don't know.

Didn't say everything was all 100% peachy. But at same time too, Russia isn't some kind of super being. Instead they too have their issues and faults.

Roscosmos is still under major change as I mentioned before - building new facilities and HQ. That requires a lot of money and time. The new park isn't completed yet from my understanding.

And the screw ups with Vostochney does put a lot of other stuff on back burner too. Hence why criminal cases were filed.

I bet you couldn't do a better job so try not to talk as if you know.

miketheterrible wrote:Angara is poised for more launches. I'm not sure on the delays but we do know from 2019 to 2020 they were working on the mass production of components.

As for Federation and Soyuz, not sure either.  I doubt they are scrapped but unless said otherwise, also don't know.

Didn't say everything was all 100% peachy. But at same time too, Russia isn't some kind of super being.  Instead they too have their issues and faults.

Roscosmos is still under major change as I mentioned before - building new facilities and HQ.  That requires a lot of money and time. The new park isn't completed yet from my understanding.

And the screw ups with Vostochney does put a lot of other stuff on back burner too.  Hence why criminal cases were filed.

I bet you couldn't do a better job so try not to talk as if you know.

They could always do a shit ton of URM module test launches in plesetsk, and testing the reusability of the baikal or amur stages if theyre ever built.

Oh speaking of the amur, it s a retarded monkeylike decision to even pursue it instead of building the baikal modules.

Id think Id least do a good job in making the decision of not changing up federation carrier plans and putting soyuz 5 on hold, and actually focusing on producing the baikal.

limb wrote:If everything's going just peachy, just tell me why has the angora been delayed for 3 more years and why are there so few test launches of it?

Oh, FFS, this is really becoming monotonous...

Angara is delayed because they made the long term decision to create an entirely new serial production production facility in Omsk, and that takes time. Not just to pour concrete and erect buildings, but to design and construct the equipment for the assembly process, recruit and train a workforce, develop manufacturing documentation. The 2014 launches were hand-built prototypes created to prove the concept. They were never going to build serial URMs in Moscow, and they had the luxury of having time up their sleeves given the existing infrastructure around Proton and Soyuz. No need to waste money by throwing it at the job in an effort to accelerate progress when they already have a workable launch system for all their current needs.

Clearly you've never been involved in manufacturing or engineering. If you had you might actually appreciate the huge amount of work that is required to found an all-new rocket manufacturing facility.

Now that Omsk is up and assembling URMs to conformance with specification, we'll see a series of tests and a start of serial production. May I suggest that the whining ignorant clowns kindly STFU for a little longer and we will be able to properly judge this major decadal effort.

Big_Gazza wrote:

limb wrote:If everything's going just peachy, just tell me why has the angora been delayed for 3 more years and why are there so few test launches of it?

Oh, FFS, this is really becoming monotonous...

Angara is delayed because they made the long term decision to create an entirely new serial production production facility in Omsk, and that takes time.  Not just to pour concrete and erect buildings, but to design and construct the equipment for the assembly process, recruit and train a workforce, develop manufacturing documentation. The 2014 launches were hand-built prototypes created to prove the concept.  They were never going to build serial URMs in Moscow, and they had the luxury of having time up their sleeves given the existing infrastructure around Proton and Soyuz. No need to waste money by throwing it at the job in an effort to accelerate progress when they already have a workable launch system for all their current needs.

Clearly you've never been involved in manufacturing or engineering.  If you had you might actually appreciate the huge amount of work that is required to found an all-new rocket manufacturing facility.

Now that Omsk is up and assembling URMs to conformance with specification, we'll see a series of tests and a start of serial production. May I suggest that the whining ignorant clowns kindly STFU for a little longer and we will be able to properly judge this major decadal effort.

Are saying that the tooling needed to manufacture URMs is completely different to soyuz and proton, and requires all new training from the ground up use?

Like tooling for a fighter jet or for a tank is also different than other models. So the answer is yes. Also take into account they are introducing and testing newer technologies to go with this - 3D printing (this is more on Rosatoms side), new automated CNC machinery, new electronics, import substitution of electronics they once imported, etc.

Sanctions can also be added to the delays as the Russian government was scrambling to build up import substitution which is still ongoing now.

limb wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

limb wrote:If everything's going just peachy, just tell me why has the angora been delayed for 3 more years and why are there so few test launches of it?

Oh, FFS, this is really becoming monotonous...

Angara is delayed because they made the long term decision to create an entirely new serial production production facility in Omsk, and that takes time.  Not just to pour concrete and erect buildings, but to design and construct the equipment for the assembly process, recruit and train a workforce, develop manufacturing documentation. The 2014 launches were hand-built prototypes created to prove the concept.  They were never going to build serial URMs in Moscow, and they had the luxury of having time up their sleeves given the existing infrastructure around Proton and Soyuz. No need to waste money by throwing it at the job in an effort to accelerate progress when they already have a workable launch system for all their current needs.

Clearly you've never been involved in manufacturing or engineering.  If you had you might actually appreciate the huge amount of work that is required to found an all-new rocket manufacturing facility.

Now that Omsk is up and assembling URMs to conformance with specification, we'll see a series of tests and a start of serial production. May I suggest that the whining ignorant clowns kindly STFU for a little longer and we will be able to properly judge this major decadal effort.

Are saying that the tooling needed to manufacture URMs is completely different to soyuz and proton, and requires all new training from the ground up use?  

Don't even try to change the subject, troll. You are the one bitching about Angara while clearly clueless about the reason for what
you label as delays. You do not get to set schedules for the Russian space program.

miketheterrible wrote:Like tooling for a fighter jet or for a tank is also different than other models.  So the answer is yes.  Also take into account they are introducing and testing newer technologies to go with this - 3D printing (this is more on Rosatoms side), new automated CNC machinery, new electronics, import substitution of electronics they once imported, etc.

Sanctions can also be added to the delays as the Russian government was scrambling to build up import substitution which is still ongoing now.

None of the trolls on this forum has demonstrated even a fragment of what they claim. So I would not take their talking points as established facts.

Note how they totally avoid dealing with obvious and real delays in the US space program. But Russia = fail and the USA = win. The ESA is not
even worth discussing.

Big_Gazza wrote:

limb wrote:If everything's going just peachy, just tell me why has the angora been delayed for 3 more years and why are there so few test launches of it?

Oh, FFS, this is really becoming monotonous...

Angara is delayed because they made the long term decision to create an entirely new serial production production facility in Omsk, and that takes time.  Not just to pour concrete and erect buildings, but to design and construct the equipment for the assembly process, recruit and train a workforce, develop manufacturing documentation. The 2014 launches were hand-built prototypes created to prove the concept.  They were never going to build serial URMs in Moscow, and they had the luxury of having time up their sleeves given the existing infrastructure around Proton and Soyuz. No need to waste money by throwing it at the job in an effort to accelerate progress when they already have a workable launch system for all their current needs.

Clearly you've never been involved in manufacturing or engineering.  If you had you might actually appreciate the huge amount of work that is required to found an all-new rocket manufacturing facility.

Now that Omsk is up and assembling URMs to conformance with specification, we'll see a series of tests and a start of serial production. May I suggest that the whining ignorant clowns kindly STFU for a little longer and we will be able to properly judge this major decadal effort.

Do not fall for the baiting by the troll.   Nothing about the Angara program over the last 7 years is delayed.   This clown thinks that raising
new production facilities for products that have never, ever been mass produced before is a two month operation.    Even plant buildings, equipment
and workers that produce complex products which are routinely mass produced take 3 years to deploy.   The building is not the plant.
So a factor of just over two in the time frame for a never before seen production facility which overlapped the sanctions war that began in 2014
is actually an ahead of schedule achievement.    The sanctions disrupted the installation of new production equipment for sure since the technology
component chains have had tight links to the west.   The idiots yapping about "riding the Soviet legacy" are full of shit.   There is no Soviet legacy
in the form of equipment that can be used and re-used.  

These trolls naturally would not care or know about the expiry life of production equipment.   I bet they think that Russian rockets are assembled
with some hardware shop tools like hammers and screw drivers.    With a bunch of serfs pounding out the sheet metal into pots, sorry, tanks
out back.

And Zak may have inadvertently hit on a relevant topic.   The Angara mass production facility is located centrally between Plesetsk and Vostochny
on the Russian rail network.   The trans-Siberian railway has been in the process of a massive capacity upgrade.   So there is a link between the
state of the railway link to the Vostochny cosmodrome.   Trolls, again, would care less about such important details.   If Russia is not waving
its dick in space, then it should give up.

GTFO.

Russia has had some achievements since the fall of the Soviet Union terms of space launchers.
The Soyuz 2 rocket available today is substantially different from the older ones.
It uses fully digital avionics. It no longer needs the rotating table for launch.
It has new staged combustion RD-0124 second stage engines of higher performance.
The first stage engines were also redesigned. It is basically a new rocket.

The Soyuz capsule has also had massive upgrades including in the avionics and habitable space.

Angara has been proven to work even if it is not at the production rates it should be.

The Vostochny Cosmodrome and the entry of Angara into mass production have been seriously delayed.
We cannot blame this on Rogozin since he wasn't even there when the mess happened.
Since he came at least they finished the Soyuz pad and the Angara pad is at least seemingly proceeding according to the revised schedule.

But I have to agree that Angara should have been ready at least 5 years ago.
The reason this did not happen already I think is because of lack of state funding and multiple competing interests in the Russian space industry.
In particular the tug of war between RKK Energia and Khrunichev which paralyzed a lot of Russian space activities for at least two decades.
Because of this Angara's development has proceeded at a snail's pace and you see multiple competing rocket designs. Like Rus-M vs Angara.
Russia cannot afford these multiple redundant programs. There is no practical reason why you need separate designs and engines for manned and unmanned missions.

My major gripe with Rogozin is he can't seem to provide a viable plan for new developments.
If anything he seems to be de-emphasizing Angara in favor of new vaporous rocket designs which are likely to never get built and make little practical sense for Russian economy requirements.

So you think that the production facilities for the Angara could have been strapped together in less than 2 years?

Too many arm chair experts on this board. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

kvs wrote:So you think that the production facilities for the Angara could have been strapped together in less than 2 years?

Too many arm chair experts on this board.   You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

Angara development did not exactly start yesterday.
This is 2021. They started Angara development in the late 1990s.

Why is it that the first launches of the Angara URM were done with South Korean money as part of the Naro-1 launcher?
http://www.astronautix.com/a/angara.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara_origin.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara_development.html

kvs wrote:

limb wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

limb wrote:If everything's going just peachy, just tell me why has the angora been delayed for 3 more years and why are there so few test launches of it?

Oh, FFS, this is really becoming monotonous...

Angara is delayed because they made the long term decision to create an entirely new serial production production facility in Omsk, and that takes time.  Not just to pour concrete and erect buildings, but to design and construct the equipment for the assembly process, recruit and train a workforce, develop manufacturing documentation. The 2014 launches were hand-built prototypes created to prove the concept.  They were never going to build serial URMs in Moscow, and they had the luxury of having time up their sleeves given the existing infrastructure around Proton and Soyuz. No need to waste money by throwing it at the job in an effort to accelerate progress when they already have a workable launch system for all their current needs.

Clearly you've never been involved in manufacturing or engineering.  If you had you might actually appreciate the huge amount of work that is required to found an all-new rocket manufacturing facility.

Now that Omsk is up and assembling URMs to conformance with specification, we'll see a series of tests and a start of serial production. May I suggest that the whining ignorant clowns kindly STFU for a little longer and we will be able to properly judge this major decadal effort.

Are saying that the tooling needed to manufacture URMs is completely different to soyuz and proton, and requires all new training from the ground up use?  

Don't even try to change the subject, troll.   You are the one bitching about Angara while clearly clueless about the reason for what
you label as delays.   You do not get to set schedules for the Russian space program.

Thats why I asked why is it taking so long to produce and launch it.

The explanation is acceptable, and I convinced that the reasons for delays are reasonable. Lets just hope there are dozens of serial launches in the next 2-3 years. Its never too early to throw away the proton dinosaur.

Regarding Rogozin, I agree that he has done a good job in stamping out extreme corruption from building contractors in vostochny, but his program lacks direction in procurement.
Also notice how nobody is talking about the amur retardation, because you cannot excuse such a retarded decision to make promises on a vertical landing rocket, while never letting the clearly superior baikal go past CGI advertisement phase. Also, theres the whole soyuz 5 and yenisei talks of cancellation.

lancelot wrote:This is 2021. They started Angara development in the late 1990s.

Angara was first proposed by the military soon after 1991 with Baikonour in the newly independent Kazakhstan... but it had been starved of money until the mid-late 00s and made next to no progress for 15 years. The reason Angara has been on a drip-feed is because Russia was able to secure its access to Baikonour and had existing rockets that could meet its launcher needs. Angara was viewed as a long-term project and didn't warrant any priority in terms of budget.

lancelot wrote:Why is it that the first launches of the Angara URM were done with South Korean money as part of the Naro-1 launcher?

Because the SKs paid for the service. krunichev used SK cash to get progress. Not really hard to grasp...

limb wrote:Regarding Rogozin, I agree that he has done a good job in stamping out extreme corruption from building contractors in vostochny, but his program lacks direction in procurement.
Also notice how nobody is talking about the amur retardation, because you cannot excuse such a retarded decision to make promises on a vertical landing rocket, while never letting the clearly superior baikal go past CGI advertisement phase.

IIRC it was the recomendation of the Russian Academy of Sciences that led Rogozin to propose Amur and the use of reuseable methalox for the SHLV (instead of kerolox as in the Yenisei concepts).  Rogozin is a MANAGER, not a frigging engineer.  Its not his fucking job to chart the future of Russian cosmonatics but to harness the brain power of the industries smart people, and then to manage delivery of that vision.  Seriously people...  what are you thinking?  That Rogozins plays with models in his bedroom and just decides on his own to upstage Musk the Golden Boy to satisfy his (alleged) ego?  

limb wrote:Also, theres the whole soyuz 5 and yenisei  talks of cancellation.

Source for any talk about Soyuz-5 cancellation????  Soyuz-5 is on solid ground as an international JV between Russia and Kazahkstan.

Can I ask those demanding things be ready now... what the rush is?

What can't they do now that they could do if everything worked at the click of fingers in magic land?

Most of what they plan to do needs a lot of work and preparation and even if brand new super rockets were ready right now at enormous expense... it would not change existing plans.

GarryB wrote:Can I ask those demanding things be ready now... what the rush is?

What is the rush...lets see...Russia Space Program currently revolves arround launching foreign satelites, space tourism and servicing the ISS with taxi services for USA cosmonauts.


Now it is 2021, space taxi service for USA is pretty much gone as they can use their own crafts. This income for Rosocosmos will disapear in 6 to 12 months.
Servicing the ISS will also start getting less and less frecuent as NASA now has access to cargo crafts too.

Satelites, the next big thing for Roscosmos. Companies that need their satelite launched go the to player with lowest price. Roscosmos up to recently could offer lowest price. Reusable Falcon 9 rockets brought launch costs to less than 50M USD or 2600USD per kg to LEO. Can Roscosmos match that? Angara rocket is between 70 and 100M USD per launch and 4500USD per kg to LEO.
With Falcon Heavy cost per kg to LEO will go below 2000USD.
So launching foreign satelites will grow less and less important for Roscosmoss income wise with every day.

What is left? Space tourism? Have you seen last Virgin Spaceship 3? This thing is made from the ground up just with space tourism in mind. Roscosmos again are far behind and will be left with laughable share of the market if any.

So yeah...what is the rush, really? Game is over for Roscosmos already.

But this is a good thing. Maybe a capable and visionary person with a team of equally capable people will take charge once the show is over and rebuild Roscosmos with actual ideas, goals and plans.

I'm going to say this to make a point for nearly everyone here:

Roscosmos main aim isn't contracts with outside actors. It's Russian government. Their task is to launch Russian assets into space and isn't actually a company like SpaceX but is like NASA.

Now with that said, bonus is their income from outside contracts. To which they have plenty of and still has for the near forseeable future. Plus new programs like working with China which is part of Russian government works.

So we can conclude some people here are a little too dumb to recognize such realizations. So even if roscosmos doesn't have a single outside contract, which it will anyway, it will survive regardless due to Russian government demands.

Roscosmos actually builds ICBM's as well as the Rockets to put Russian military and civilian products into space. It also acts as part of Russian Mil space command hence the new HQ being built.

miketheterrible wrote:

Roscosmos main aim isn't contracts with outside actors.

Strange you say this. A rocket with the PizzaHut logo comes to my mind but of course it must have been some...erhm...bonus as you call it.

miketheterrible wrote:
It's Russian government.  Their task is to launch Russian assets into space

Russian assets, at least the important ones are handed by Russian Space Forces (and thanks God) from Plesetsk.

miketheterrible wrote:
and isn't actually a company like SpaceX but is like NASA.

You are funny. Imagine going to NASA webpage and seeing nothing about Mars Rovers, asteroid landings, space telescopes, the program for moon landing in 2024...none of this western bullshit. The main focus is the new paint colors of a rocket and the new office building in Moscow. Cool!

But lets not be harsh, you know the 90s crysis (doesnt matter we are 2021 today, it was a BIG crysis, you know?) the budget differences...lets compare Roscosmos to the Chineese Space Agency...oh damn...first returned samples from Moon in decades, new space station with first module launching in April, Mars exploration crafts, moon rover, no, no, scrap this. So Roscosomos is not like CNSA either.

So I guess you ment they are more like ESA, I guess? But with less science missions and more painting...

miketheterrible wrote: To which they have plenty of and still has for the near forseeable future.

Sure. Their launches caunt dropping by half compared to what it was a decade ago is due to Roscosmos plan to decrease CO2 footprint and care about nature?

miketheterrible wrote:
 Plus new programs like working with China which is part of Russian government works.

Ah, so the master plan is instead of being a taxi for USA become a taxi for China?
Good luck with this.

miketheterrible wrote:
So even if roscosmos doesn't have a single outside contract, which it will anyway, it will survive regardless due to Russian government demands.

It will be a sad existence anyways, if the sole purpose would be to launch 4-5 Russian satelites per year.
But hey, they may decide to repaint Souyuz in 5 years so it is totally worth it.

If you fail to grasp what is being said, I suggest you don't speak of what you don't know.

First off, you have to provide budget and revenue numbers, then the sources of it.

As well, Russia has for this year over 20 launches.  That is a rather solid number.

You speak out of your ass cause you really don't know what is happening.  Before I even provided the information to you, I bet you didn't even know they make Russia's military ICBM's, their electronics used for space based objects, for ground and space use, or the fact that their entire budget is relied upon what the government demands.

So what if the Russian government decides to launch 4 or 5 (which you are full of retarded shit anyway) sats? It's their decision and they will continue to operate it in their necessary capacity. There is no competition cause it's artificial. Competition in what? Competing for what? To send something into deep space that doesn't accomodate to anything? Or launching any kind of satellite for the sake of it? You are aware various Russian universities, companies and the like also use Russia's launch vehicles too, not just fed gov, right? Japan, Egypt and the likes also seem to be fine with using roscosmos.

If you know better, please, travel to Russia and tell the government. I bet they can use a good laugh right now.

Talking to a troll like yourself isn't really beneficial. All you have done was talk out of your ass and that's about it

Russia = fail, Putin = bad. Since when are we supposed to do 24/7 babysitting in this board?

miketheterrible wrote:I'm going to say this to make a point for nearly everyone here:

Roscosmos main aim isn't contracts with outside actors.  It's Russian government.  Their task is to launch Russian assets into space and isn't actually a company like SpaceX but is like NASA.

Now with that said, bonus is their income from outside contracts.  To which they have plenty of and still has for the near forseeable future.  Plus new programs like working with China which is part of Russian government works.

So we can conclude some people here are a little too dumb to recognize such realizations.  So even if roscosmos doesn't have a single outside contract, which it will anyway, it will survive regardless due to Russian government demands.

Roscosmos actually builds ICBM's as well as the Rockets to put Russian military and civilian products into space.  It also acts as part of Russian Mil space command hence the new HQ being built.

The troll is pushing the usual drivel that Russia needs "hard currency" to survive.



As if without launches of foreign satellites Russia can't afford a space program and its own launch capacity.

This trolling is correlated with Musks's triumphs.

kvs wrote:

The troll is pushing the usual drivel that Russia needs "hard currency" to survive.



As if without launches of foreign satellites Russia can't afford a space program and its own launch capacity.

This trolling is correlated with Musks's triumphs.

Actually the ¨troll¨ is saying that without any strategy or vision or an actual space program, Roscosmos will operate just to satisfy the internal needs of Russian Federation.
Some of you seem to think this is the right thing to happen.

I guess it´s all right to go from being the space agency that got the first human in space and returned it alive, the first  satelite, the first landing on a different planet (and moon) to a space agency that is proud it painted its rocket in different colors. If this is OK for you guys, then by all means, I am sorry to disturb your peace arround here.  

Oh boy, he keeps posting.

Fuck, they really got no plans. I mean... Roscosmos is doomed! Russia is doomed!