GarryB wrote:And those thinking the newbies are the problems there are plenty of old hands that pop up with some negative statistic from this weeks US propaganda source they post and watch get chewed up and spat out.
Not the case, there are some pretty astounding new additions to the board that have become classics already.
Learning to not get angry that some people don't care about anyone else is an important skill, it doesn't bother me that Navalny is an evil self centred ass, and that the people who think he is wonderful don't seem to know much about him except he opposes Putin and that is enough.
Yeah, I have no problem skipping blatant idiots or putting them in the ignore list, I am referring rather to the quality level of the forum resulting from diluting some thoughtful or informative posts in a sea of BS, and the tedium of having to look so much for a bit of useful information. This is not the street, this is your house and you are entitled to prohibit chimps from getting inside and shitting in your living room. It is fully normal and a practical must to protect what you have.
To make weeding out effective I would have to block new members again, which is something perhaps to discuss first.
I see no need to ban new membership. I guess everybody deserves an opportunity, or two or three, but after 100 posts, if 90 are full of shit you have pretty much a good statistical sample.
Yeah, I have no problem skipping blatant idiots or putting them in the ignore list, I am referring rather to the quality level of the forum resulting from diluting some thoughtful or informative posts in a sea of BS, and the tedium of having to look so much for a bit of useful information. This is not the street, this is your house and you are entitled to prohibit chimps from getting inside and shitting in your living room. It is fully normal and a practical must to protect what you have.
Perhaps you need to get off your high pedestal and stop calling people idiots and pick bad examples, I find a lot of drivel that others do idiotic. You can ignore, its not that hard just like others do for some the drivel that is rinsed and repeated to no ends. Mod suggested to keep it civil and its in simple english
LMFS wrote:Garry is a liberal in the good old sense of the word and I like that very much, but some old and quite a few new people are clearing abusing of that liberalism and outright dragging down the quality of the board. No matter how much you are against it and how long you want to resist it, sooner or later weeding is needed by the completely arbitrary criteria of good posters stay, bad ones leave.
All I am hearing is complaining. Unless someone is spamming, there is no need to sensor stuff. No one is forcing some of you to read those links nor forcing you to respond to comments. Rest all is finger pointing on off topic escalations and fanboism. I will respect Garry's decision whatever he chooses. Its his call to have fanbois only site. Not the end of life to get banned from forums. Suit yourself and keep complaining.
I miss your old handle bitcointrader70 , what will be your new handle next week?
?? You are nuts and you are missing your brain....get it checked out before its too late. Thousands of posts and this is your level of intellect. No wonder some of you have those high school girl club mentality....some just don't feel like complete without a little posse....I hope the moderator checks you out on accusing people and calling names. It is never too late...fix yourself
bitcointrader70 no need to be so hostile to your friends here, maybe your hostile to your other multiple personalities, but you shouldn't be so hostile to your dear colleagues!
magnumcromagnon wrote: bitcointrader70 no need to be so hostile to your friends here, maybe your hostile to your other multiple personalities, but you shouldn't be so hostile to your dear colleagues!
Thats the best you got? You broke two rules that mod @Garry pointed out to me and I hope he calls you out since you are "ranked" with posts in thousands....
1. Do not accuse people and he clearly indicated to you 2. Do not copy whole quotes
Both in simple plain english and can't be that challenging even to you
Also, I am not hostile to anyone or hate you :-). I have opinion about things and you can have yours, either we can discuss in a decent way or you can ignore or if mod allows I know how to respond to "gentle" gangs that complain
@Garry -- you can apply your discretion or ban me if you are prejudiced and can'e be fair or partial towards some of your "senior" drivelers....
One option is to put a wait time to confirm email and activate like 30 days or 60 days rather than immediate.
That is true, though signing up for a forum and then having to wait for a month before I could post sounds like I would probably lose interest and forget I signed up for membership...
Thank you for you contribution though what does anyone else think of that?
Its not easy running an English language Russia forum. English speaking ppl have been subjected to the most successful demonetization and propaganda scheme in history.
Wonder if I can fit that quote into the main banner on the site....
It is so effective that they know all about propaganda, but think anyone who disagrees with how wonderful and what a force for good the west really is are the ones that suffer from propaganda...
Anyway, this might be the first website ive come across where the mobile version is better than the desktop version.
Got a message to say there is a new light editor for the mobile versions of the site.... any comments and feed back would be interesting BTW.
I also noticed an embed content button between the insert link button and the embed Youtube video button.
Not sure what that is, but it might be a solution to embedding videos from other sights without needing individual buttons for each... will have a look into that, but feel free to play with that yourself.
Is there any equivalent to the "Latest topics" button on the desktop version ? "View posts since your last visit" should be but its not reliable. The list that comes up doesn't always include all posts. The Notifications tab just keeps adding up and up and its not always reliable either. But on the mobile, Latest Topics covers them all.
On the desktop version if you scroll to the bottom of the index page on the right hand side there is a link for "Todays active topics", below the Statistics Blue bar and above the who's online list...
Not the case, there are some pretty astounding new additions to the board that have become classics already.
Keep in mind that this forum will be a serious shock to their world view.... they are used to English speaking people repeating the bullshit their media and politicians feed them.
Foreigners never used to understand why western people often greeted complete strangers they met with comments about the weather... I strongly suspect it was something you could say that was not controversial and that most reasonable people could agree on immediately without discussion or conflict... a nice sunny day is irrefutable... well in some places Putin and or Russia being evil is a give too so instead of saying "nice day", they will say "Free Navalny" or "Assange who?".
Coming here and not only hearing people disagree, but disagreeing for reasons never presented to them before by their media or governments despite their media telling them they give stories from all sides and all angles...
I am referring rather to the quality level of the forum resulting from diluting some thoughtful or informative posts in a sea of BS, and the tedium of having to look so much for a bit of useful information.
The talking bollocks thread is a bottomless thread that never reaches its limit.
It was mentioned before that we create a thread for the normal cliche propaganda and the discussions that prove it was wrong... I suspect we will be moving a lot of MindStorms posts there, as well as posts from your good self and KVS and quite a few other fighters of FOO...
This is not the street, this is your house and you are entitled to prohibit chimps from getting inside and shitting in your living room. It is fully normal and a practical must to protect what you have.
But having a differing opinion is not the same as doing that... leaving droppings would be breaking the rules, which would lead to a fairly immediate ban for a newbie.
What you are all talking about is that some of these new people sound a bit like people we have had previously that have been leaving little packages around the place and were banned for it.
I have three things to go on... username, email address, and IP number, and based on those I will have a chat to someone who pops up with the IP number or something close to it, of someone previously banned.
I see no need to ban new membership. I guess everybody deserves an opportunity, or two or three, but after 100 posts, if 90 are full of shit you have pretty much a good statistical sample.
So you are talking about a content standard? Voting people off the Island?
Do we have a panel to decide?
We actually have thousands of members and a large percentage of them have never posted a single post.
Another option would be membership by invitation, there is a mechanism in the software that means a new member can only post and use the site if I approve their membership.
@Garry -- you can apply your discretion or ban me if you are prejudiced and can'e be fair or partial towards some of your "senior" drivelers....
I was just going to give him a warning, when I read your quote... you rejected Johns advice when you arrived, but can I say the bit I have put in bold above sounds a bit like a dare.... you don't want to play such games... I barely know you, you come across as someone who could be reasonable and you are smart enough to stick within the letter of the rules, but banning you would cause me no loss of sleep, or any second thoughts... I think I am being clear.
@magnumcromagnon
Please trim your quotes before replying to just include what you are replying to, or even just use an @ to indicate who you are talking to and don't quote anything at all... anyone following the thread should already know.
Repeating text over and over in a snowball of stuff already in the thread is annoying and a waste of bandwidth.
When you click on quote you see the post you quoted repeated surrounded by quotes... if others have quoted too then it will be multiple quotes in layers... just delete the irrelevant quotes.
For instance your last post was this:
{quote="magnumcromagnon"}{quote="gbu48098"}{quote="magnumcromagnon"}{quote="gbu48098"}{quote="LMFS"}Garry is a liberal in the good old sense of the word and I like that very much, but some old and quite a few new people are clearing abusing of that liberalism and outright dragging down the quality of the board. No matter how much you are against it and how long you want to resist it, sooner or later weeding is needed by the completely arbitrary criteria of good posters stay, bad ones leave. {/quote}
All I am hearing is complaining. Unless someone is spamming, there is no need to sensor stuff. No one is forcing some of you to read those links nor forcing you to respond to comments. Rest all is finger pointing on off topic escalations and fanboism. I will respect Garry's decision whatever he chooses. Its his call to have fanbois only site. Not the end of life to get banned from forums. Suit yourself and keep complaining. {/quote}
I miss your old handle bitcointrader70 , what will be your new handle next week? {/quote} ?? You are nuts and you are missing your brain....get it checked out before its too late. Thousands of posts and this is your level of intellect. No wonder some of you have those high school girl club mentality....some just don't feel like complete without a little posse....I hope the moderator checks you out on accusing people and calling names. It is never too late...fix yourself{/quote}
bitcointrader70 no need to be so hostile to your friends here, maybe your hostile to your other multiple personalities, but you shouldn't be so hostile to your dear colleagues! {/quote}
Note I replaced all the square brackets with curly brackets so you can see them... this is what you see when you click the quote button on a post... all you have to do to respond to the last quoted piece is start at the last {/quote] and move up through the text to the next one... You just need to select from that second last {/quote} all the way up to the first {quote="username"} and delete everything between them... in this case that should result in it looking like this:
{quote="magnumcromagnon"}{quote="gbu48098"}{quote="magnumcromagnon"}{quote="gbu48098"}{quote="LMFS"}Garry is a liberal in the good old sense of the word and I like that very much, but some old and quite a few new people are clearing abusing of that liberalism and outright dragging down the quality of the board. No matter how much you are against it and how long you want to resist it, sooner or later weeding is needed by the completely arbitrary criteria of good posters stay, bad ones leave. {/quote}
All I am hearing is complaining. Unless someone is spamming, there is no need to sensor stuff. No one is forcing some of you to read those links nor forcing you to respond to comments. Rest all is finger pointing on off topic escalations and fanboism. I will respect Garry's decision whatever he chooses. Its his call to have fanbois only site. Not the end of life to get banned from forums. Suit yourself and keep complaining. {/quote}
I miss your old handle bitcointrader70 , what will be your new handle next week? {/quote} ?? You are nuts and you are missing your brain....get it checked out before its too late. Thousands of posts and this is your level of intellect. No wonder some of you have those high school girl club mentality....some just don't feel like complete without a little posse....I hope the moderator checks you out on accusing people and calling names. It is never too late...fix yourself{/quote}
bitcointrader70 no need to be so hostile to your friends here, maybe your hostile to your other multiple personalities, but you shouldn't be so hostile to your dear colleagues! {/quote}
Note the words in blue all deleted... it just takes a second to do, and then after the last /quote you can type in your comment.
It is not hard and everyone should now be able to do it... if you don't understand... send me a PM and we can talk about what you are having trouble with.
Last edited by GarryB on Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Used quotes for clarity.)
GarryB wrote:So you are talking about a content standard? Voting people off the Island?
Do we have a panel to decide?
We actually have thousands of members and a large percentage of them have never posted a single post.
Another option would be membership by invitation, there is a mechanism in the software that means a new member can only post and use the site if I approve their membership.
I get that this board has a very open set of rules to allow for free expression in a time when that is not the norm anymore, and probably we can take pride at it. The issue is that in this world there are many people with not so elevated intentions and I would say if you ask 100 people, 95 are going to point out precisely the same users as the trolls and saboteurs of this place. People that overwhelmingly or systematically produce garbage content which is demonstrably false and don't give up flooding the forum with it even when called out, or people that never bring news or useful info but just engage in conflict generation, all those are easily detectable traits and I do see fit for a mod or admin to cut that without further discussion, because they are willingly and openly working to ruin this board and make it a place no one wants to lose their time with. There is a huge difference between a little active user or someone that (still) does not have lots of knowledge but has a healthy attitude and another which is just looking for conflict, and the same way there is difference between people that can have polemic opinions but provide facts and generate an interesting discussion (I can think of some users of this type even when they are not a majority) and others which are in it just for the fun of trolling. Experienced users can detect this unhealthy attitudes practically from the first post and that is what normally is needed for the team of mods of any board, people that know when someone has good intentions and when they don't. I mean, this is the way boards are regulated and I think this one can try to be more liberal but probably it cannot escape the same kind of problems all the rest face in terms of antisocial members being able to drown the discussion if let unchecked.
EDIT: you could make it democratic if you will, an anonimous voting of the users that are considered trolls or dead weight, I am pretty sure some guys would overwhelmingly come on top. That is a nice way of correcting the personal bias we all can have. You can get pretty much the same seeing which guys are at the top of the ignored lists BTW... hell you can have the "winner of the month" earning their permaban and that would be a nice incentive for people to behave and try to contribute + instead of -
Some people like to complain, others like to argue and still others just want to cause shit (troll)!
Those people soon are identifiable and it is up to each of us to deal with them accordingly. Myself I tend to ignore them but have not issued any the ignore button just in case some germ of wisdom should appear
On the larger issue of censorship, it is a slippery slope to start down. Most of the posters that argue for it are also the first to complain about it occurring in the Western media and social media. Cannot have it both ways amigo's.
GarryB wrote: I was just going to give him a warning, when I read your quote... you rejected Johns advice when you arrived, but can I say the bit I have put in bold above sounds a bit like a dare.... you don't want to play such games... I barely know you, you come across as someone who could be reasonable and you are smart enough to stick within the letter of the rules, but banning you would cause me no loss of sleep, or any second thoughts... I think I am being clear.
No, it was not a dare but based on couple of comments you made in the posts and pm about how you can ban without a reason and you have a bit of bias towards "senior" members. Also ip is not something people control....nothing more to it from my end.
Since emails are easy to create, putting x amount of time may slow down someone/a machine with that day job. That's all...controlling something like that is all trial and error. Most people join after watching discussions for years or atleast few weeks and you can adjust time to activate as you see.
I am not in favor of approvals as its already gang mentality and there are less of individualists in the world even in this forum. Just my opinion and does not really matter to me one way or other.
franco wrote: On the larger issue of censorship, it is a slippery slope to start down. Most of the posters that argue for it are also the first to complain about it occurring in the Western media and social media. Cannot have it both ways amigo's.
On a lighter note, I will pretend I did not read the non-english word "amigo".....
magnumcromagnon wrote: bitcointrader70 no need to be so hostile to your friends here, maybe your hostile to your other multiple personalities, but you shouldn't be so hostile to your dear colleagues!
Thats the best you got?
You have the advantage of numbers, all your multiple personalities have accounts of your own, bitcontrader70NomadGbuSomeRandomNumber.
One option is to put a wait time to confirm email and activate like 30 days or 60 days rather than immediate.
That is true, though signing up for a forum and then having to wait for a month before I could post sounds like I would probably lose interest and forget I signed up for membership...
Thank you for you contribution though what does anyone else think of that?...
It's dumb approach for the reasons you listed
You should be more generous with bans and permabans just like any other forum anywhere
Also you still haven't done anything about Vann7's child sacrifice bullshit on Covid tread that I pointed out recently, that's a way bigger problem than some noobs not adjusting
Well this is definitely not a pro-shill forum for example f-16.net's admin wont let me get past 20 posts(privilege's to post without admin approval and as much as I want) and starts deleting half my posts which were not even pro-Russian or inappropriate to begin with, along with a ban. Problem is this forum probably grants to much freedom to trolling behavior, I wouldn't care if a F-35/abrams/space x biggest fan boy starts posting here.
The issue is that in this world there are many people with not so elevated intentions and I would say if you ask 100 people, 95 are going to point out precisely the same users as the trolls and saboteurs of this place.
Part of the problem there is that someone can be a troll and saboteur, but equally, somebody could be someone playing devils advocate and wanting to find a different response than just blind agreement as they would get from another forum.
Hate to name names, but lets take Member X as an example. He often posts comments that could be considered flamebait, or facts so obviously wrong it could be considered trolling, but I get the feeling that if you cut him off from here and he had to go to a pro west forum now he would be quickly banned for being too pro Russia or too pro Putin. I don't know for sure but I suspect he is totally immersed in the anti Russian and anti Putin bullshit and didn't know any different so he started posting things he thought were obvious here and would be supported as obviously true only to be countered and corrected as the pro west hogwash that it is.
I name Member X, but I got the feeling that quite a few members were taking things they had read that was unopposed on other forums or information from media or their friends and put it on here to test its validity... learning from the answers from members here... like a litmus test, or more accurately a trial by fire...
On every forum there is some variety of views... purge some and more will join or you will find the existing membership shift to fill the void.
It is nature.
Perhaps we need a new section built of issues that we have completely covered that can then be locked and if someone brings something up we can refer to the relevant section instead of having to go over it all again.
People that overwhelmingly or systematically produce garbage content which is demonstrably false and don't give up flooding the forum with it even when called out, or people that never bring news or useful info but just engage in conflict generation, all those are easily detectable traits and I do see fit for a mod or admin to cut that without further discussion, because they are willingly and openly working to ruin this board and make it a place no one wants to lose their time with.
The ignore option is there for a reason, but someone who wants a nice save place to praise Russia or Putin with no non believers soiling the carpet with their ignorance might find the rest of their existence a shock because in the real world that shit is all around... getting to practice amongst fellow believers here is your best vaccination.
There is a huge difference between a little active user or someone that (still) does not have lots of knowledge but has a healthy attitude and another which is just looking for conflict, and the same way there is difference between people that can have polemic opinions but provide facts and generate an interesting discussion (I can think of some users of this type even when they are not a majority) and others which are in it just for the fun of trolling.
Users come here for all sorts of reasons, entertainment could be one of them.. variety makes it more interesting.
Experienced users can detect this unhealthy attitudes practically from the first post and that is what normally is needed for the team of mods of any board, people that know when someone has good intentions and when they don't.
First impressions can be an issue... I seem to remember locking horns with Vlad very early on with threats to ban me on more than one occasion. He later told me the main reason he created this site was because there were no English language forums that wouldn't find a reason to ban someone who was hard core pro Russia and not afraid to say it. Vlad didn't seem to be in awe with Putin as I am, but on most western forums being pro Russian is normally enough of a crime to get a ban eventually.
EDIT: you could make it democratic if you will, an anonimous voting of the users that are considered trolls or dead weight, I am pretty sure some guys would overwhelmingly come on top. That is a nice way of correcting the personal bias we all can have.
You say democracy, I see lynch mob... what do I do when Ultimate Warrior and his 60 anonymous accounts picks you to go... 58 of them have never posted anything but all of a sudden they are all certain you are a detriment to the forum and need to go... there is no rule for you get banned if you are not popular.
You can get pretty much the same seeing which guys are at the top of the ignored lists BTW... hell you can have the "winner of the month" earning their permaban and that would be a nice incentive for people to behave and try to contribute + instead of -
The problem there of course is that if you put someone on your ignore list, they might put you on theirs.
I also have no way of telling who is on anyones ignore list.
Some people like to complain, others like to argue and still others just want to cause shit (troll)!
It is a bit long but I would still likely to use it as a bumper sticker....
@Franco x2
If all dessenting voices disappear it will become very quiet.
It is not just about arguing... some people like to be challenged... and some people don't...
I would suggest that 98% of members here actually lurk and don't post because they don't want to say the wrong thing, or if they put something up they believe to be true and it gets holes picked out of it, it might change their world view, which might be something that they are not comfortable about.
Instead remain anonymous and just think about the replies you would make if you posted safe and sound knowing no one can say you are wrong.
The only way to always be right is to never say anything at all.
I must admit I do feel dirty in threads like the Lend Lease thread talking down the suffering in the west because they demand credit and ignore the suffering in the east...
about how you can ban without a reason and you have a bit of bias towards "senior" members.
I could ban without a reason but I haven't so far and don't intend to, and of course I have a bias for existing members because they are the forum... it is not my forum it is theirs.
Also ip is not something people control....nothing more to it from my end.
It is not in my interests to discuss that really, but I appreciate what you are saying.
I am not in favor of approvals as its already gang mentality and there are less of individualists in the world even in this forum. Just my opinion and does not really matter to me one way or other.
You are a member so your opinion counts.
In many ways this is a clan, and to fit in somewhere is important, and that the majority accepts you is important too.
You have the advantage of numbers, all your multiple personalities have accounts of your own, bitcontrader70NomadGbuSomeRandomNumber.
It's dumb approach for the reasons you listed
You should be more generous with bans and permabans just like any other forum anywhere
Thank you for you views. Noted.
Also you still haven't done anything about Vann7's child sacrifice bullshit on Covid tread that I pointed out recently, that's a way bigger problem than some noobs not adjusting
Pointed out recently?
You have not PMed me about anything.
I normally skim Vanns posts these days... if anyone has any problems with the forum or any member then PM me or post in a forum technical or non technical issue thread please.
Problem is this forum probably grants to much freedom to trolling behavior, I wouldn't care if a F-35/abrams/space x biggest fan boy starts posting here.
We have Space X fanboys, but an F-35 fanboy would need to be pretty hard core to post here I would think...
I don't want strict thought crime policing, and any problems I would rather talk though that come out swinging an ax to take off heads.
as said, you can do as you think it is best. It can be "our" collective forum if you say so, but you call the shots here. All I am saying you already know. Non moderated places tend quickly to degrade. You are perfectly entitled to take action when it is obvious that someone is here for the fun of disturbing and not for honest discussions. I am not against dissenting voices, I am against trolls. You, I and anyone can tell a troll from a guy that has a different opinion but a constructive attitude.
@franco:
this is not a public place, this is a club where membership is needed to post, so "censorship", if you want to make such a broad interpretation of the word, is already in place in that not everybody can simply come here and speak their mind. I guess that has some reasons, mainly to avoid this turning into a mad house. But if members are not held responsible for what they do here, then there is no point in the membership rule. Do and say whatever you want, nobody will do anything. Individual response (ignore) to a collective problem (trolling) is IMHO not the solution, it is rather a reaction to the lack of a solution. And it only works for members, while normal readers cannot filter garbage and pointless discussions out, effectively affecting the quality of the board as a source of information. The authority and responsibility of admin/mods come together and they need to be used constructively instead of being loathed as actions of totalitarianism. I guess our flawed, fake "liberal" education takes its toll sometimes.
franco wrote:Some people like to complain, others like to argue and still others just want to cause shit (troll)!
Those people soon are identifiable and it is up to each of us to deal with them accordingly. Myself I tend to ignore them but have not issued any the ignore button just in case some germ of wisdom should appear
On the larger issue of censorship, it is a slippery slope to start down. Most of the posters that argue for it are also the first to complain about it occurring in the Western media and social media. Cannot have it both ways amigo's.
My two cents
I was going to put the one on ignore. But the problem with the ignore function is that if a troll gets put on ignore by everyone then his shit will go unchallenged. That's not right either.
I am a pretty big shill for the Russian economy because it is lied about so much in the west. It is far from perfect. And we could probably get into properly criticizing aspects of the Russian economy once we agree that what the west says about it is actually lies and bullshit. But it doesn't work when ppl here are still peddling the actual lies, we mostly waste our energy fighting that still.
I am not advocating for a ban. Its just an unfortunate opportunity cost
as said, you can do as you think it is best. It can be "our" collective forum if you say so, but you call the shots here.
I hear you, but yours is the opinion of one member and I have not seen thousands of likes for any post on this thread to give me an indication of what any other member thinks.
No disrespect intended.
Many people don't like change, while other thrive on it... you are right that I essentially call the shots, but I do like what we have... it is not perfect, but that is not possible anyway, but I don't feel it is mine... this belongs to Vlad but it is made up of you guys now, the reason I am keeping it going is for Vlad... I really don't even want to make it mine, and so I think about what he did and said... I don't want to close off dissenting voices because I don't think that is healthy... I think that is why the west is broken... even if they can be annoying most of the time it is important to hear a different view otherwise you end up with the Yesman effect... which was a problem that destroyed companies. (For those not familiar it is where people in power or in control surround themselves with yes men who agree with them on everything rather than intelligent people who recognise a stupid idea and would say no... companies would have management staff that wouldn't think and think everything the boss said was amazing and a great idea even when they knew it wasn't... bad choices led to very bad situations... like Michael Jacksons personal doctor prescribing more and more pain killers because his job became Michaels drug dispenser rather than someone who protected his health...).
Non moderated places tend quickly to degrade.
So this is only slightly moderated, so it is only a little bit shit? I will pass that on to George... he will be so pleased the effort he puts in is appreciated.
I am not against dissenting voices, I am against trolls. You, I and anyone can tell a troll from a guy that has a different opinion but a constructive attitude.
A troll is an action, not a person... anyone can and does troll, but when you look at their reactions over time and their responses, I think most people here do like Russia and there is a little bit of respect for Putin, but when some people fawn over either like they are somehow perfect and so much better than the west they want to push back.
The Anti Russians and Anti Putins on this forum might even defend the obvious right things they do in the real world when talking to the unwashed masses that drink deeply from the nipple of Hillary Clinton.
But if members are not held responsible for what they do here, then there is no point in the membership rule.
But members are held accountable, they are just not sent to jail on the first offence because they look like someone we sent up the river a few days before and have just decided to join today...
Do and say whatever you want, nobody will do anything.
Are you suggesting there is no accountability?
As you mention, this is a club, but talking about bad behaviour would be accusing a new member of being deceitful and of already having been a previous member and trying to reenter in disguise with no evidence other than similar views... now if you want me to be more strict and heavy handed some of the people banned over that know who they are... especially if they don't like Demi Lovato... to be honest the members I have trouble with are not just the ultimate warriors, they include the Mikes and the Papas, and I can say it openly I am glad they are not permanently banned, because I appreciate their comments even if I don't always agree with their views or how they deliver them.
I respect honesty, even if that means hearing some very racist stuff that goes against what I believe... people are racist and different and I don't think lying about it or covering it up helps.
Individual response (ignore) to a collective problem (trolling) is IMHO not the solution, it is rather a reaction to the lack of a solution.
In any family or large group there are going to be individuals that annoy other individuals... it might be on specific subjects, or it might just be they don't like the other person having breathing rights. If they are not going to talk it through and end perhaps a 300 day one hour a day session of talking it through that ends with hugs and kisses on the cheeks then plan B is not talking to each other which is quicker and easier and just as effective in the long term.
And it only works for members, while normal readers cannot filter garbage and pointless discussions out, effectively affecting the quality of the board as a source of information.
Everyone has a temper and things they are not adult and mature about... I often check the statistics and most of the time all during the day there are normally between 12 and 20 members on the forum and about 140-160 unregistered guests.
I guess our flawed, fake "liberal" education takes its toll sometimes.
Another bumper sticker...
I was going to put the one on ignore. But the problem with the ignore function is that if a troll gets put on ignore by everyone then his shit will go unchallenged. That's not right either.
I don't have an ignore button, so I can't ignore anyone. I have stopped reading Vanns posts in detail because most of the really long ones I don't tend to learn anything new... he is not like George or our many members that post news or new information, so I am not missing a lot out when I don't read his rants.
If anyone does read something that offends them and they think should not be on here please send me a PM as soon as poss with a link directly to the offending post... the easiest way to do that by the way is to go to the post in the thread and right click the subject for that particular post and choose copy link and then paste that into your PM to me.
I am a pretty big shill for the Russian economy because it is lied about so much in the west. It is far from perfect. And we could probably get into properly criticizing aspects of the Russian economy once we agree that what the west says about it is actually lies and bullshit. But it doesn't work when ppl here are still peddling the actual lies, we mostly waste our energy fighting that still.
The west cannot admit anything Russia does is right because they are the alternative, they are a competitor that is not the west, and they are a rival that seems to have balanced its budgets and done most things right. They haven't been able to break out of most western controls because they were weaker and it would have damaged their growth potential. Now the west is cutting ties with Russia themselves, essentially pushing Russia away thinking that will destroy them but they are past that, and it is just making them more independent and looking for alternatives for further growth and development.
this is not a public place, this is a club where membership is needed to post, so "censorship", if you want to make such a broad interpretation of the word, is already in place in that not everybody can simply come here and speak their mind. I guess that has some reasons, mainly to avoid this turning into a mad house. But if members are not held responsible for what they do here, then there is no point in the membership rule. Do and say whatever you want, nobody will do anything. Individual response (ignore) to a collective problem (trolling) is IMHO not the solution, it is rather a reaction to the lack of a solution. And it only works for members, while normal readers cannot filter garbage and pointless discussions out, effectively affecting the quality of the board as a source of information. The authority and responsibility of admin/mods come together and they need to be used constructively instead of being loathed as actions of totalitarianism. I guess our flawed, fake "liberal" education takes its toll sometimes.
By "censorship", I'm referring to those that don't want any views expressed that conflict with their own or push the need to be of correct thinking. I'm an old timer and have found the adage "there are at least two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between" to be as close to the TRUTH as one can get. I sometimes post articles that offer a different view to show that there are different perspectives. Some here may complain at that but that is their issue, not mine. I noticed that not too long ago you posted an article from an Ukrainian source which for them actually was pretty unbiased. It takes all to make a whole
For the avoidance of doubt I am OK with the current situation.
Being an open forum has its problems but the admission of new posters is a must. We each just have to filter, by soft or hard ignore, the pearls from the sand and we do get pearls, if we didn't that would be a different situation. It is not as if we see a flood of new arrivals.
As said, resisting the kind of assault that we can unleash is pretty hardcore. Mind you we seem to have some long term hardcorers
GarryB wrote:I hear you, but yours is the opinion of one member and I have not seen thousands of likes for any post on this thread to give me an indication of what any other member thinks.
Of course, I talk just for myself. I see quite a bit of pushback against some guys both old and new, so I am rather certain I am not the only one with this opinion, but everyone can speak for themselves.
No disrespect intended.
I know
I don't want to close off dissenting voices because I don't think that is healthy...
Me neither, I agree with you on that and I have several times said that I celebrate that you are not an authoritarian or want a monotone board. This is not about different opinions as much as is about people with bad intention or a very obvious disregard for the intelligence of their peers here.
So this is only slightly moderated, so it is only a little bit shit? I will pass that on to George... he will be so pleased the effort he puts in is appreciated.
You are taking offence where none is intended. Very few times have I seen users being banned. Generally what I at least see (subjectively) is posts moving, closing threads and some warnings. To go beyond that is quite rare.
The Anti Russians and Anti Putins on this forum might even defend the obvious right things they do in the real world when talking to the unwashed masses that drink deeply from the nipple of Hillary Clinton.
The view that is threatened in the public sphere is exactly the opposite, so they should know that flooding this board with that sort of brainless crap to finally and totally silence their enemies is not welcome. Having said that, to me, anyone making good points and providing real evidence is welcome whatever their ideology or agenda, people doing the contrary should think twice before posting.
Are you suggesting there is no accountability?
For the sake of clarity and understanding: the very reason of these posts is to denounce allowed antisocial behaviours in the board. Clearly my opinion is a bit different, with all the due respect as said above.
As you mention, this is a club, but talking about bad behaviour would be accusing a new member of being deceitful and of already having been a previous member and trying to reenter in disguise with no evidence other than similar views... now if you want me to be more strict and heavy handed some of the people banned over that know who they are... especially if they don't like Demi Lovato... to be honest the members I have trouble with are not just the ultimate warriors, they include the Mikes and the Papas, and I can say it openly I am glad they are not permanently banned, because I appreciate their comments even if I don't always agree with their views or how they deliver them.
I have no way of knowing about banned trolls trying luck again. As to the last part of your point, this has probably to do with the way rules were set for the board. Insulting a guy which is provoking to be insulted or doing some other minor infractions can get you out, being an outright saboteur or sick genocide apologist but not clearly trespassing such rules is ok. IMHO antisocial behaviour and markedly poor quality should be ultimately reasons for administration to take action, but that is as said just an opinion and how my quality standards are shaped, what can I do but being honest?
I respect honesty, even if that means hearing some very racist stuff that goes against what I believe... people are racist and different and I don't think lying about it or covering it up helps.
Some of that shit can get the board in trouble, just saying
Everyone has a temper and things they are not adult and mature about... I often check the statistics and most of the time all during the day there are normally between 12 and 20 members on the forum and about 140-160 unregistered guests.
That means there are like ten readers that cannot filter out crap for each registered user that can.
franco wrote:By "censorship", I'm referring to those that don't want any views expressed that conflict with their own or push the need to be of correct thinking. I'm an old timer and have found the adage "there are at least two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between" to be as close to the TRUTH as one can get. I sometimes post articles that offer a different view to show that there are different perspectives. Some here may complain at that but that is their issue, not mine. I noticed that not too long ago you posted an article from an Ukrainian source which for them actually was pretty unbiased. It takes all to make a whole
There are many people here with views and opinions different to mine and I in no way advocate for their ban, in fact no one here thinks quite like myself and banning all dissenting opinions would ultimately mean ending up alone. Quite on the contrary, the discussion is the reason for signing a forum. But I would not be infinitely tolerant with people that are obviously trolling, and I am rather certain, but may be wrong, that most people will not agree 100% in what they consider ill intentioned people, but for some very obvious cases where it is so obvious that 90-95% of the people would tell the same names. I am just talking about taking those out for pure board health considerations.
By "censorship", I'm referring to those that don't want any views expressed that conflict with their own or push the need to be of correct thinking. I'm an old timer and have found the adage "there are at least two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between" to be as close to the TRUTH as one can get. I sometimes post articles that offer a different view to show that there are different perspectives. Some here may complain at that but that is their issue, not mine. I noticed that not too long ago you posted an article from an Ukrainian source which for them actually was pretty unbiased. It takes all to make a whole
Another factor of course is that it is about different perspectives, and while we dispute the facts and reasons given often the real reasons underneath that are not given are just as important if not more so.
If you listen to the US state department it is about peace and democracy and human rights, but they will kill millions of Iraqis and then try to undermine democracy because Shia Muslims are a majority and they aren't anti Iran enough for US interests so they can't give them real democracy...
And that can make discussing things with pro America people difficult because the reasons they give is not the reasons they do what they do, but the real reasons... oil and countering Iran are not honourable or heroic reasons and really don't make America look very good so they try to avoid those.
But the problem that creates is that they can't argue on honest things so they have to lie and be deceitful which of course makes them look even worse, so how can they proceed?
Obviously they have to demonise their rivals and opponents... the huge irony is that Saddam and Gaddafi and Assad and Putin all wanted alliances with the west... they wanted to work together to help their own countries grow and develop, but those are powerful leaders that wont give up soverignty like the leaders of the EU and Japan and South Korea were so happy to.
The west tends to use projection these days so the accusations are often a good indication of what they are also doing so reading their bullshit can be quite instructive as long as you begin with the premise that it is lies, but likely reflects what the west is doing.
Case in point western military bases moving towards Russia is democratic and improving democracy and stability and peace in the region... it is the democratic right of any country on Russian borders to join HATO, but Russia improving infrastructure and building bases in the far north and far east is a serious concern for the west and a wakeup call that they need to rush to do the same...
It is videos posted by Tsavo and Franco and others that show such things...
Of course, I talk just for myself. I see quite a bit of pushback against some guys both old and new, so I am rather certain I am not the only one with this opinion, but everyone can speak for themselves.
You speak for yourself but it is important to be heard. I would like to have more than just the odd voice popping up and saying this or that... do I assume everyone agrees, or do I assume everyone else thinks things are fine.
I know
More than that, thank you for making your views known.
You are taking offence where none is intended. Very few times have I seen users being banned. Generally what I at least see (subjectively) is posts moving, closing threads and some warnings. To go beyond that is quite rare.
To be fair, most people are reasonably good at following the rules... sometimes they need a reminder, but you can't physically have a punch up or stabbing.
Most people who come here come here because they like it for whatever reason so they make an effort to conform so they can stay when challenged.
Having said that, to me, anyone making good points and providing real evidence is welcome whatever their ideology or agenda, people doing the contrary should think twice before posting.
I agree, but it is also important if you supporting evidence proves false or unreliable if you continue to stick to the same views and change to different supporting evidence that is also shot down but don't change your views it starts to become clear the evidence and reasons were excuses to justify believing something you wanted to believe and your views are set in stone so why are you discussing them?
It is a bit like discussing religion but with the goal of influencing the thoughts of others rather than to reflect and challenge your own beliefs... that is not a discussion, but a sermon.
Insulting a guy which is provoking to be insulted or doing some other minor infractions can get you out, being an outright saboteur or sick genocide apologist but not clearly trespassing such rules is ok.
Now you are contradicting yourself aren't you... I thought you said it was quite hard to get permanently banned on this forum... sad to say many western countries were built on genocide and theft, and many genocides were not genocides... Orcs will claim Stalin tried to wipe out the Ukraine in a genocide, but most just call it a famine created by the shift to collectivisation and western actions regarding the sale of food... it becomes a boring conversation if I ban everyone who doesn't think it was a genocide, or everyone who is sure it was...
IMHO antisocial behaviour and markedly poor quality should be ultimately reasons for administration to take action, but that is as said just an opinion and how my quality standards are shaped, what can I do but being honest?
I appreciate what you are saying, and looking back over past bans there are comments that describe why the ban was imposed... most are abuse of other members or just as often failing to follow instructions given by a mod, but there are a few older ones for lack of contribution to the forum... I guess either trolling or flame baiting.
It is certainly easy to pick a user and show all their posts and skim through and evaluate whether they contribute positively or not... but for me there is no one that leaps out as annoying on every subject and in every thread they post... we have some posters that are interested in one area and mainly post there and there are others that post all over the place... I read most posts... perhaps I am too tolerant.
Some of that shit can get the board in trouble, just saying
It is OK... I made you all do it... I have no interest in running for president.
That means there are like ten readers that cannot filter out crap for each registered user that can.
There is a built in ignore system where you can skim through a thread and read the Mindstorm posts and ignore many of the other ones...
Some might actually enjoy seeing the less informed posts getting ripped to shreds and taken to pieces by other members...
and banning all dissenting opinions would ultimately mean ending up alone.
No it wouldn't... hahaha... just kidding
But I would not be infinitely tolerant with people that are obviously trolling, and I am rather certain, but may be wrong, that most people will not agree 100% in what they consider ill intentioned people, but for some very obvious cases where it is so obvious that 90-95% of the people would tell the same names. I am just talking about taking those out for pure board health considerations.
I appreciate what you are saying and to a degree I agree, but are these people trying to be annoying or is it just them stating their views and being as stubborn to go through point after point after point on and on... I mean you and I have been there because I can be very stubborn, but then you could equally say... not stubborn, just interested in the subject and ready to discuss all aspects in incredible detail.
I have also had long discussions with other members... just off the top of my head probably the most annoying would be basing Russian carriers in the Black Sea, by invading the Ukraine to recover a shipyard that would essentially need to be completely rebuilt to be of any use... money that could be spent on any shipyard in the Russian Federation to much greater effect without needing to invade anyone... but even if they did... there is no value in basing the Admiral Kuznetsov in the Black Sea to start with, or the single engined fighter discussion being cheaper than twin engined, and of course VSTOL fighters making fixed wing carriers redundant and a waste of money... perhaps a better solution would be to take measures to isolate such things when they are forming and move them to separate threads where they don't clog up the original threads... but as someone who took part in all those examples I would say banning would be unfair unless the discussion became abusive.... you might find them boring and circular, but sometimes interesting things come up and neither side is always 100% right about everything they say.
GarryB wrote:You speak for yourself but it is important to be heard. I would like to have more than just the odd voice popping up and saying this or that... do I assume everyone agrees, or do I assume everyone else thinks things are fine.
That is difficult to know, some are happy, some stopped participating, some never cared or don't believe any change is possible... everyone has its own view.
More than that, thank you for making your views known.
Thanks for being receptive to other people's opinions and constructive criticism, not everyone is confident enough for that.
I agree, but it is also important if you supporting evidence proves false or unreliable if you continue to stick to the same views and change to different supporting evidence that is also shot down but don't change your views it starts to become clear the evidence and reasons were excuses to justify believing something you wanted to believe and your views are set in stone so why are you discussing them?
Totally agree. By that moment it is certified not a rational discussion anymore, but rather us being used. We should get that paid at least...
It is a bit like discussing religion but with the goal of influencing the thoughts of others rather than to reflect and challenge your own beliefs... that is not a discussion, but a sermon.
Ideology is non arguable, true. People that don't understand that don't make for good posters and do not create quality content, just fill endless pages repeating the same drivel over and over. It goes very much in line with what I was trying to say in regards of minimum quality standards for the board.
Now you are contradicting yourself aren't you... I thought you said it was quite hard to get permanently banned on this forum... sad to say many western countries were built on genocide and theft, and many genocides were not genocides... Orcs will claim Stalin tried to wipe out the Ukraine in a genocide, but most just call it a famine created by the shift to collectivisation and western actions regarding the sale of food... it becomes a boring conversation if I ban everyone who doesn't think it was a genocide, or everyone who is sure it was...
I was actually thinking of past interpretations of the forum's rules, but allow me not to go in the detail of real cases, it would not be fair. Just as an example for you to understand what I mean, there is a rule about mentioning other boards, which contradicts sourcing the news we link BTW, and that could be used to ban a member for breaking the rules. But advocating for the annihilation of whole countries is not covered anywhere, for instance. The guy doing that would stay in the board while other calling him what he deserves could be banned. Just samples of loopholes in the rules allowing for quite unfair outcomes.
I appreciate what you are saying, and looking back over past bans there are comments that describe why the ban was imposed... most are abuse of other members or just as often failing to follow instructions given by a mod, but there are a few older ones for lack of contribution to the forum... I guess either trolling or flame baiting.
All legit, responsible ways of using the authority of the moderation team to keep the place healthy.
It is certainly easy to pick a user and show all their posts and skim through and evaluate whether they contribute positively or not... but for me there is no one that leaps out as annoying on every subject and in every thread they post... we have some posters that are interested in one area and mainly post there and there are others that post all over the place... I read most posts... perhaps I am too tolerant.
Yes you are very tolerant indeed. That is the contrary of a defect I would say, but some people manage to make it look like it is.
Some might actually enjoy seeing the less informed posts getting ripped to shreds and taken to pieces by other members...
Some members get tired of debunking always the same shit, I guess that is the main burden I perceive
I appreciate what you are saying and to a degree I agree, but are these people trying to be annoying or is it just them stating their views and being as stubborn to go through point after point after point on and on... I mean you and I have been there because I can be very stubborn, but then you could equally say... not stubborn, just interested in the subject and ready to discuss all aspects in incredible detail.
There are clear cases where it is rather obvious. The will to contribute is very easy to see by the amount of effort users do, if you are selflessly and regularly searching and bringing interesting news you are hardly a troll, if you are just posting your opinion against the rest of the board or linking blatant propaganda, then odds are you are in it for the fun of annoying users.
I
have also had long discussions with other members... just off the top of my head probably the most annoying would be basing Russian carriers in the Black Sea, by invading the Ukraine to recover a shipyard that would essentially need to be completely rebuilt to be of any use... money that could be spent on any shipyard in the Russian Federation to much greater effect without needing to invade anyone... but even if they did... there is no value in basing the Admiral Kuznetsov in the Black Sea to start with,
With the person that thinks that planes can patrol the world endlessly (among many other pearls) and does not have the self awareness to understand the cringe he produces in anyone with a functional brain, that is why you will never reach any solution to that discussion, because he is using you to get attention, and faking arguments is the means he uses to get you answering him. Sanity is a precondition for healthy discussions, people that cannot handle basic logic are entitled to live their happy lives but we are not responsible for entertaining them, they should go to see a doctor instead.
or the single engined fighter discussion being cheaper than twin engined, and of course VSTOL fighters making fixed wing carriers redundant and a waste of money... perhaps a better solution would be to take measures to isolate such things when they are forming and move them to separate threads where they don't clog up the original threads... but as someone who took part in all those examples I would say banning would be unfair unless the discussion became abusive.... you might find them boring and circular, but sometimes interesting things come up and neither side is always 100% right about everything they say.
An interesting difference is that in these two other discussions you mention I normally disengage after a few exchanges, once I have said what I have to say, compare it with other threads. I will not convince you and I am ok with that, I am in no need of wining you over or publicly appearing to come on top of the discussion. And of course when these discussions get too long, I appreciate other people giving a heads up, the board comes first and egos come second.
I was actually thinking of past interpretations of the forum's rules, but allow me not to go in the detail of real cases, it would not be fair. Just as an example for you to understand what I mean, there is a rule about mentioning other boards, which contradicts sourcing the news we link BTW, and that could be used to ban a member for breaking the rules. But advocating for the annihilation of whole countries is not covered anywhere, for instance. The guy doing that would stay in the board while other calling him what he deserves could be banned. Just samples of loopholes in the rules allowing for quite unfair outcomes.
The rules didn't appear from thin air and most are from experience... my understanding is that some forums are designed to generate income... I am not sure how that works but it requires traffic and member numbers and some people were creating accounts here and recommending members here jump ship so to speak to boost numbers on these other forums, so rules were introduced to stop it.
There are clear cases where it is rather obvious. The will to contribute is very easy to see by the amount of effort users do, if you are selflessly and regularly searching and bringing interesting news you are hardly a troll, if you are just posting your opinion against the rest of the board or linking blatant propaganda, then odds are you are in it for the fun of annoying users.
You say that it is obvious, but I don't think it is that obvious. Members have been accused of trolling for posting articles and reports and from their reactions I don't think they are. If you post something from the Jamestown website telling us how there are all these things wrong with the Su-57 and how it is going to be cancelled... well you know and I know that the amount of money they have invested in that aircraft is significant and not something they can afford to do again to restart a plan B if plan A fails. We also know that as it is it is a generational step ahead of a Flanker even with its current engines and its current engines are not actually bad engines... but the new engines happen to be better... so even continuing with the current engines would not be a serious problem for the programme.
The point is that they read an article, which on the surface seemed to make sense to them but it doesn't sound right so they post it here. Or they might recognise it as being stupid and post it here to get destroyed.
For that to be trolling I would at the very least expect the person who posted it to start defending the article and denying any criticism of the article, but they generally accept the criticism and do not back the article.
Sometimes serious western articles are just so astoundingly stupid you need someone else to look at them to make sure it is not just you who are disgusted at the depths the west has sunk...
With the person that thinks that planes can patrol the world endlessly (among many other pearls) and does not have the self awareness to understand the cringe he produces in anyone with a functional brain, that is why you will never reach any solution to that discussion, because he is using you to get attention, and faking arguments is the means he uses to get you answering him. Sanity is a precondition for healthy discussions, people that cannot handle basic logic are entitled to live their happy lives but we are not responsible for entertaining them, they should go to see a doctor instead.
He is a retired sailor watching his adopted country turn around him... he is clearly not living the dream... but that is the problem for so many in the west... streaming movies and boxed sets of old TV shows... I don't mind talking nonsense to old people... we are all going in that direction to the same destination.
I find it difficult to be angry with people over the way they are.
I am in no need of wining you over or publicly appearing to come on top of the discussion.
I don't agree with the idea that you can win or lose an argument... if you change your opinion and change what you believe to be true because of sound logic and supporting facts, then that is a win for both "sides". Isn't it?
I always laugh when people say America won the cold war and Russia lost because essentially what they are saying is that democracy is a punishment... in this case inflicted on a loser... but results so far don't seem to show Russia as being the loser... and what exactly did America win?
Seems to me that America got an enormous opportunity to make things better for everyone and they squandered their chances because they only thought of themselves...
And of course when these discussions get too long, I appreciate other people giving a heads up, the board comes first and egos come second.
I don't continue conversations to be right. I have been around a bit, but not as long as quite a few people on this forum, and their world experience is vastly superior to mine, but I do read about things I am interested in, which over the years has become much easier... with language translation software my ability to read sources otherwise closed to me has expanded enormously, and without the filter or sour angry western experts, it is much easier to find information on topics that interest me.
Strictly out of curiosity, who composes the newsletter that arrives periodically via e-mail. Is that George or Garry or does it come directly from forumotion? Apologizes if previously asked or mentioned.
If you look through your preferences you should be able to turn it off.
I think it just selects "hot topics" and posts them.
Does anybody like those newsletters and not want them to be switched off.
I think there might be something I can do to turn them off, but obviously if anyone likes them then I can leave them on and those that don't want them can disable them.
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LMFS
, what will be your new handle next week? 
