what if they don't get needed engines for a long time?
They have already said the same engines going into the Il-114 have been improved to 4,000hp and reliability has been improved too, which is actually what they were trying to achieve to put them into the Il-112V.
They seem to want to get the Il-212 flying first because conceptually it is the best solution as the An-72 was developed to replace the An-24/25/26 but largely failed to do so while the Il-212 should be able to replace all four types with one design that is based on the Il-112V.
Once the Il-212 is in serial production it should be able to replace all of those types with better performance, though the extra engine power might mean a higher cost for lighter payloads.
The Il-112 with the further improved engine can then be developed... which should be straight forward because the issue seems to be the engine so with the upgraded engine it should be all good to go.
If old planes must be replaced/augmented ASAP; I don't want to repeat myself & rest my case!
The only old plane remaining is the upgraded Il-476 which has been given a full upgrade and improvement from wings to engines etc etc, while the An-124 has been russianised and upgraded to a new level, and the soviet engines have been put back into production so old aircraft can be taken out of storage and used for a few years more. The upgrade of the An-124s internals is useful because it can be used as a basis for the An-22 replacement (whatever it is called and whatever it looks like) and also for the Slon which with its extra power will be essentially a scaled up aircraft with a 180 ton payload capacity. The latter two aircraft are based around the PD-35 engines and so there wont be a lot of progress till they are serially made.
not much different from the proposed Il-106! A stretched & wider B-747F or A-380F isn't radically different from a C-5 or An-124.
The Il-106 has a rear ramp door. No model Il-96 I have seen has that.
that was said 5 years ago; we live in a very different world now.
That is true, but the question really for the next 5 to 10 years is does Russia go heavy and very long range or do they sort out smaller lighter types first and then look at the bigger types later when the PD-35, which is a more suitable engine becomes available?
that's according to ur logic; they often let things slide, according to an old saying: "a muzhyk (man) won't make a sign of a cross [with a hand across his chest, in the Orthodox fashion] until he hears a thunder coming"; when things get out of control they start acting.
OK, and your logic suggests panic can change behaviour... the problem in this case is that I very much doubt no one has bothered to digitise the design of the An-22, and to do so would take a minimum of 3-4 years, plus perhaps another 1 or two years to upgrade the design and improve it based on new materials and design technology.
Worst case scenario if you were happy to put the An-22 back into production then it would make more sense to just take the new engines and new props the An-22 used from the latest upgraded Tu-95 and fit them to the Il-106 design which was designed to replace the An-22 and would need rather less modification and might already be digitalised.
The money invested to upgrade the engines and propellers of the Bear should give any aircraft fitted with such engines the best thrust and fuel efficiency possible and it is paid for out of the military budget.
But I think they will prefer PD-35 jet engines for slightly more speed.
if it wasn't that urgent, Shoigu wouldn't have demanded doubling the # of active cargo planes in the VTA.
The fastest way to increase the number of cargo planes is to start producing the smaller lighter ones in volume.
makes sense, but knowing their mentality, more likely those 2 helos, if urgently needed, would be flying there cross country overland with several stops to refuel.
That would be another option, but would require experienced crews for those sorts of flights and perhaps the unavailability of the large aircraft to move them.
Russia has her own engines to fix on the Y-9/20 or any other Chinese plane. China isn't Ukraine to raise obstacles in reengining planes as was with the Russian owned An-124 fleet
The only reason they might consider such a purchase would be if they could be ready to go straight away without fuss and without too much changes.
If they have to replace engines and probably avionics (which could be western) then it really just makes sense to make their own from their own.
Russia now isn't the USSR that had most of its aircraft locally designed & built from mid 1950s till 1990.
That is where it is headed... except it will be made from the 80s onwards...
"eventually" may take a lot longer than a few years which Russia may not have to move forward in her development/defense.
A few years delay here and there are not important as long as the direction is maintained and lessons learned.
that's why cooperating with China will buy them some time; instead of "waiting for the good weather by the seaside".
Russia is certainly cooperating with China, but Chinese copies of Soviet designs tweaked with new ideas is not a sunny day.
back than there were no planes that could compete; it was "either buy Western planes or get out of business with those noisy & gas gazzling engines on Soviet morally outdated planes". indeed, many airlines were merged with Aeroflot or died if they tried to use them.
That is what they said to destroy the Russian civilian aircraft industry. The Tu-204 is a good aircraft and buying such aircraft would have allowed them to improve the designs and create really competitive designs which is why western companies probably gave reduced prices initially to get into the market and then pump the prices up when they could no longer afford to swap back.
back in mid 1980s I saw An-12s & An-22s flying high enough to have white contrails, so they can fly above most of the weather, at least in E. Europe.
Weather and air conditions can cause such things to form at all sorts of altitudes and is not a good indication of what altitude they are at.
I meant 4 engine Il-114 derivative & gave it my own designation, forgetting about the MTA
You can play around endlessly with different ideas... the new Il-212 with two over wing PD-8s to replace the An-24/25/26 and An-72 could have bigger wings and extended fuselage and four PD-8 engines and be a replacement for the An-12 instead of the Il-276.
The options are endless, but it would be good if they actually moved forward with something.
Because the existing engine (TV7-117) is more than enough for a 5 tons plane and even more powerful than the engine of the An-26.
That is not really fair because at the time they decided the TV7 engine wasn't powerful enough it was only running at 3,500hp, but with work they now have it running at 4,500hp and also with improved reliability for the Il-114.
Part of the appeal of using that engine was commonality between the Il-112V cargo plane, Il-114 and the Mi-38 helicopter... and a few other uses including drones etc.
The increased internal volume led to a bulkier shape which required more power to keep within safety margins and performance expectations.
So yeah a propeller version of the il-212 (with another designation) could be done in the future, when the more powerful engine ie available but it should be a 10 tons payload aircraft with a longer cargo hold, not a 5 tons payload aircraft.
The propeller version with a similar payload to the Il-212 and increased power engines would just be repeating what the Il-212 is surely?
A 5 ton payload smaller lighter Il-112V with a good reliable engine would be cheaper to operate and might be able to operate from a wider range of air strips at much lower weights than the bigger jet engine powered Il-212.
Furthermore the TVRS-44 Ladoga is being done and it is supposed also to be capable of rugged operations. Its cabin size is exactly the same as the An-140, so it should be acceptable for the kind of loads a 5 tons max payload plane is supposed to carry.
Except the Il-212 should already be able to do all that faster and further.
Why spend time and money to fix the propeller version of the il-112V into a 5 tons payload aircraft when they have another plane in the same niche that is being developed and could be ready in a rear ramp configuration by 2027, when there are so many "holes" in the other transport niches?
Why introduce a totally new aircraft type (to the military) for a role the Il-212 could either do or a turboprop version (Il-112) could do?
The TV7 engine has already been improved and uprated for its role in the Il-114 so to all intents and purposes the Il-112V should actually be ready to go.
As we said, both An-12 and An-22 replacement do not exist.
The Il-106 existed. Talk about modifying the An-124 to do the job is an option even if I don't like it. Creating a new Slon transport type with four PD-35 engines is a design project and therefore a smaller lighter version with two PD-35 would make good sense too as a third option.
Regarding the AN-12 replacement the Il-276 and Tu-330 would represent the most sensible and most obvious solutions to the problem.
Especially since now they are using the experience of the design and work on the stillborn il-112v to develop a proper An-72 replacement in the 10 tons (or slightly more) payload niche?
The job was an An-24/25/26 replacement but problems with the intended engine led to a radical solution that mirrored the solution the An-72 used many decades ago.
A new jet engine to upgrade an aircraft having problems to create a solution to a different problem happens more often than you might think.
The An -124 could be back in production with newly built modernised D-18T engines by 2027, the Slon has been only in early development.
But Slon is the solution long term and is mostly just waiting for a suitable engine that is being developed now.
More important the Slon design can be scaled to create a smaller two engined version for An-22 replacement, and a four engined solution to the An-124s replacement problem.
Instead of putting the An-124 back into serial production it would make more sense to use those factories to upgrade and overhaul An-124s from storage for the next few years. Once that has been achieved they can make a few prototypes of Slon and mini Slon types to be fitted with 4 and 2 PD-35 engines respectively to start testing and work on the replacements for the An-124. Once they get them ready for serial production then those factories can start making both types... maybe focus on the twin engined model first, because a lighter cheaper heavy transport is probably more use to start out with, while the bigger heavier longer ranged aircraft is going to be more expensive to make and operate but perform roles other aircraft simply can't compete with.
If the improvement in comparison to the An-124 are minor and mainly engine related, than it is questionable if a new design and a costly and long new test campaign is worth. (Also because I doubt the Slon can be ready before 2035).
Having four PD-35 engines it performance should be rather better than the An-124s performance, and for lighter more common moves a twin engined design should be better and also rather cheaper.
I would think having An-124 produced when possible and later modernised with new (and more capable) engines when available sometimes in the next decade would be more efficient.
It is not about efficient... getting foreign types out of service is still a goal and Soviet is foreign.
And use the spare design capabilities to work on something that is really missing instead (An-22 and An-12 replacements), especially if the ideas of getting Chinese help for setting up in Russia fully localised production of the stopgaps (Chinese modernisation of the An-12 and Chinese enlarged An-70 with jet engines) is not considered.
The Slon programme could be intended to replace both the AN-124 and the AN-22 because the new engine power ratings make them ideal or twin and quad engine arrangements. If it was a PD-50 they were working on then a four engined aircraft might not make sense and a twin engined aircraft to replace the An-124 might make more sense, but in this case I would say the PD-35 makes sense for this purpose.
Soviet union developed the An-12, An-26, An-22, il-76, An-72 and An-124 across more than 30 years.
Russia cannot replace all of them at the same time.
Why not? The Il-212 is ideal for replacing the An-26 and An-72.... with different engines it can do the reduced range lighter payload jobs cheaper than a jet can in the form of an Il-112. The Il-476 is replacing the Il-76 and a shorter lighter version with two engines can replace the An-12. That just leaves the An-22 and the An-124 and a twin and quad engined version of Slon could do that with slightly larger and smaller versions... nothing fancy... bigger wings and longer fuselage for the four engined aircraft and shorter wings and shorter fuselage for the twin engined type. In fact if they ever do look at a more powerful variant of the PD-35, say a PD-45 or PD-50 the four engined model could get an H tail version for carrying outsized payloads on its back to perform role of a Guppy or An-225 type aircraft.
The M4 did that for a while and it has a payload capacity of less than 20 tons... most of the things it carried were large and bulky but not particularly heavy.
New space shuttles and strange type loads are likely as they expand their space endeavours.
I am glad that future project departments of TSAgi and UAC continue to think and work on interesting new aircraft models and proposals (it is their job), but early design from future projects departments does not mean that the aircrafts will be developed.
This is true but I would say the An-22 and An-12 are the most urgent in need of replacement and should be a focus, with a lightened twin engined version of the Slon the most suitable candidate for the An-22 and the shortened and twin engined version of the Il-476 being the most sensible solution for the An-12.
I think with the Tu-214 in production that a Tu-330 makes sense as well but for the moment they will be making as many for airlines and wont have a lot of time for other prototypes just yet.
In a few years time they can continue producing them and as some retire from use as they are replaced by superjets and MS-21s in commercial use they could be used to replace a lot of obsolete aircraft used by the military... which is when a Tu-330 should be developed and put into use too.
A 30-35 ton payload capacity would be rather useful for Boomerang type vehicles and also a decent margin regarding other types like Malva or Typhoon types.
In all aerospace companies, both in Russia or the west, the amount of initial projects studied by future design departments and projects actually developed is probably 5 to 1 or 10 to 1.
I agree and what normally kills them is lack of a suitable engine, which has been a real problem for quite some time, but solutions are arriving...
Again, what I did not like is that already on paper the performances were bad.
I remember reading somewhere that the internal volume of the Il-112 was bigger than the An-24/5/6 and that instead of 36 troops the Il-112 could carry 44, and it could carry them further and faster. I don't care if it doesn't stack up to modern foreign types.... the Russian military have requirements and if it meets those requirements then I am happy. They may have requirements for new vehicles or material to be carried in these aircraft necessitating they have larger internal volume, which of course is going to impact on drag and speed and the power needed to move it around.
The will change the specs to meet their needs so a shorter Il-76 with smaller wings should be just fine... as you point out most of their planes get wider as the payloads increase so using the Il-476 cargo bay shortened but not made narrower or lower should be a massive improvement over the cargo bay of the An-12.
The problems are not the engines.
So something went wrong with that development (il-214/il-276)
Or the problem is that Tupolev might have gotten their numbers wrong...
It is only when you make a flying prototype that you find out if you are overweight or not structurally strong enough to carry your rated load.
If they are able to get it to become something decent and with good performance for at least next 30 years, yes that would be a good thing. Otherwise it would be almost better to put back the An-12 in production (especially since the Chinese have already a modern, stretched version of it which would need only import substitution).
Putting the An-12 back into production doesn't make sense. Fitting the engines on the Il-276 above the wing like with the Il-212 will give it proper rough field performance, with jet speeds. If its performance is not good enough then later on you can just give it more power... fit PD-18s to it and use the extra power to carry more fuel and more payload to improve performance...
Basing the aircraft on the Il-476 is an advantage but you can be flexible too. They don't need to be identical.
Finally, noone will buy the export version of the Il-276 if its performance are so much worse than the An-12 (Y-9) and of the embraer C-390.
They might buy them if they can get Il-476s too and the commonality of the two types makes servicing and operational costs much much cheaper.
And why on earth do you think performance would be a lot cheaper. Maybe their specs are conservative?
Western aligned nations will buy C130 or C-390 (or possibly the larger A-400M (European knock-off copy of the An-70)), while non western aligned will buy the Chinese modernised An-12 (Y-9)
Will the rest of the world all buy Chinese planes?
Even if no one else buys them, Russia needs these planes and will use these planes and there are plenty of countries who don't want to spend that much to get western aircraft and choose not to buy Chinese planes. India for example might be interested in making Il-476 and Il-276 aircraft in Indian factories for example.
Iran might want to make Il-476 aircraft and Il-276s might interest them too...
Incidentaly, they want make a lot of civilian cargo Tu-214s.
I'm sure some will be used by the military, as needed.
There are a lot of military roles being performed by obsolete aircraft types that could do with being replaced... the Il-20, Il-22, the Tu-154Ms, the Il-38s... and not just that but introducing new types like AWACS and AEW as well as electronic aircraft for jamming and recon and other roles... perhaps even a platform dedicated to drones either for support or to defeat enemy drone use.
So, Boeing is developing something for launching something that is just a failed experimental project...
Not just that but such developments would make enemy transport planes a very high priority so fighters like MiG-35s wandering around the airspace armed with R-37s would make even more sense. It could easily detect large transport planes at enormous distances and shoot them down. Will not matter if that transport plane is carrying support equipment or attack missiles... shooting it down would be important.