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BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TheArmenian

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Post n°26

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TheArmenian Thu May 10, 2012 11:44 pm

Don't worry Shamanov is Putin's man.
As much as I like the firepower of the BMD-4, I think it should equip no more than half the VDV units. AFAIK there are 4 VDV divisions. Only 1 or 2 should have the BMD-4.
VDV needs to be light, very mobile and easy on ligistics. I believe wheeled vehicles (like the VOLK) should make up the bulk of the airborne forces.

GarryB

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Post n°27

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Fri May 11, 2012 12:29 am

The BMD-4M is between the new 25 ton and the 10 ton vehicle families... closer to the 10 ton than the 25 ton.

The fact that they want heavier armour suggests to me they are going to do what they did before.

The BMD is basically a BMP heavily modified for air dropping and specialist use.

As said above the Kurganets-25 and presumably the Boomerang-25 will be too heavy for air dropping, which rules them out, while the Boomerang-10 is probably too light... and it is likely they will want tracked vehicles for mobility for many uses anyway.

For a very small batch I would think that actually making BMD-4Ms now that in 2016 can be fitted with the electronic suites of the Kurganets-25 family vehicles makes sense... the VDV has a separate logistics support train so the fact that it is not the same as the Armies vehicle wont actually matter that much as long as it is consistent within the VDV.

They have been doing what the Army plans to do for quite some time except instead of using the new vehicle families being developed they are going to use the BMD-4M as the basis, so they will have a tank (Sprut) and an IFV (BMD-4M), a troop carrier (BTR-MDM), artillery (2S9M Nona), recon vehicles EW vehicles command vehicles etc etc.

This means the force consists of the same basic vehicle with the same engines and the same transmissions/gearboxes/components etc etc so they use the same fuels and lubricants and spare parts and tools.

Yes, I know I am flip flopping, but the idea of saving money by buying and upgrading BMD-2s till something new is ready only makes sense if they are planning to use a new vehicle being developed.

If they plan to use an upgraded BMD-4M then it makes the most sense to simplify the current design to minimise cost... perhaps including modular add on armour made of expensive and exotic materials that is not fitted initially to reduce costs and simplified systems for now, and then in 2016 when a full upgrade package is ready you can start applying that to in service vehicles and producing new vehicles to match the new standard.

It means you can start training for night and all weather and net centric combat with new sighting and navigation and battle management systems without spending too much now and then in 2016 when the new stuff is ready there will be more money in the budget to buy the new stuff when it is ready.

TR1

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Post n°28

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TR1 Fri May 11, 2012 12:46 am

I think they should abandon the BMD-2 upgrade program and put all of that towards BMD-4 procurement ASAP.

GarryB

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Post n°29

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Fri May 11, 2012 1:03 am

I think they should abandon the BMD-2 upgrade program and put all of that towards BMD-4 procurement ASAP.

X2.

Austin

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Post n°30

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Austin Fri May 11, 2012 7:33 am

BMD-4M combat vehicle will be a forward-looking Airborne - General Shamanov
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120510/645801095.html

MOSCOW, May 10 - RIA Novosti. Promising combat vehicle of the Airborne Troops (VDV) will be BMD-4M, which in 2016 could go in the series is already in a fully "digitized" version, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, the commander of Navy Hero of Russia, Lieutenant-General Vladimir Shamanov.

Earlier, the Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces, Army General Nikolai Makarov, said that the Ministry of Defence refused to purchase airborne combat vehicle BMD-4 because of its high cost and "low-security soldier."

"Today we can say that the forward-looking airborne combat vehicle will be an improved version of the BMD-4M. This machine will be equipped with an automated control system, developed by" Kurganmashzavod "for forward-looking infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs)," - said the shaman.

He stressed that after the increase in BMD-4M bronezaschischennosti conducted at the request of industry, the Chief of General Staff, this machine is completely satisfied with Navy.

According to the commander of the Navy, developed in Kurgan electronic filling will improve several key characteristics of BMD. For example, when driving on rough terrain vehicle will be much less wobble, which makes easier the work of the crew, aiming easier and increase the speed in these conditions from ten to 35 kilometers per hour. The new electronics will eliminate the possibility of hitting an obstacle and be able to maintain a given speed, and a new navigation system will plot a route for GLONASS Navigation anywhere in the world (today's navigation system BMD-4M only defines the coordinates of the machine and can fire, and the function of routing is not implemented yet).

"Serial delivery date, a fully" digitized "BMD-4M may begin no earlier than 2016. Therefore, given that the basis for Navy fleet of armored vehicles converted amount of the BMD-1 BMD-2 armored, which is already 25-30 years old, you must as soon as possible to begin serial supplies to the troops BMD-4M in its current form, "- said Shaman.

In his opinion, if you postpone upgrading troops for another four years, the combat potential of airborne drops, as introduced in the early 80-ies, BMD-2 not only has long worn out, but basically obsolete.

"Add in the already delivered samples of additional electronics you can, and later - in the framework of modernization," - said the general.

On the question whether Adopting a unified version of the airborne combat vehicle "Kurganets-25," Shaman said no. He stated that the total unification of technology and airborne infantry units is not possible because of the weight restrictions imposed on the necessity of airborne vehicles landing parachutes.

"Create a single machine has tried unsuccessfully in 1970, since then nothing has changed, the issue remains unresolved. Due to weight restrictions armor infantry vehicles are always higher than ours, and promising BMPs will weigh over 25 tons, While BMD-4M combat pack and landing inside the machine weighs only 14 ", - said the agency interlocutor.

Austin

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Post n°31

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Austin Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 am

So essentially they would buy the BMD-4M now and in 2016 a completely modernised BMD-4M will start entering service.

GarryB

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Post n°32

BMD-4M combat vehicle will be a forward-looking Airborne - General Shamanov

GarryB Fri May 11, 2012 12:14 pm

So essentially they would buy the BMD-4M now and in 2016 a completely modernised BMD-4M will start entering service.

Basically what they are saying is that the new BMP class version of the tracked medium brigade vehicle family (Kurganets_25) is too heavy to be used by the VDV, so they need their own custom designed vehicle and they think a further improved BMD-4M is the solution.

For now they want the BMD-4M to be produced to replace obsolete existing vehicles, but by 2016 the new electronics being developed for the new Kurganets-25 family will be ready and can be retrofitted into the BMD-4Ms that will have been produced for the VDV. They will also upgrade the armour with new exotic types being developed for the new vehicles.

medo

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Post n°33

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

medo Fri May 11, 2012 4:34 pm

BMD-4M is needed for VDV units to replace old BMDs. For the kind of VDV operations, combat vehicle is better on tracks than wheeled and it must be carried by plane or helicopter, so 20+ tons is not in perspective for them. VDV and naval infantry fight different battles than ground forces armor brigades.

GarryB

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Post n°34

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Sat May 12, 2012 2:13 am

VDV and naval infantry fight different battles than ground forces armor brigades.

Quite true... their mobility means they can attack rear areas so mobility and fire power are key. By attaching sufficient air support to them on their missions very heavy armour would just slow them down.

One of the most dangerous things for airborne forces is enemy artillery and a BMD-4M will protect them from that, while allowing them to cover great distances and with the fire power to deal with most rear area units they might stumble on.

I think the Navy has mentioned that it will develop its own version of Kurganets-25 that is better suited to operations in open sea... the Army only needs to cross rivers and lakes while the navy needs to land in rough surf so its rough sea capability requirements are higher, but with sea transport weight is not really an issue and nor is size, while for the VDV both are quite important for parachute delivered troops... less important for air landed troops (ie capture an airfield and you could use An-124s to land an Armata heavy brigade if you wanted to).

medo

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Post n°35

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

medo Sat May 12, 2012 11:50 am

As I know, naval infantry also show interest for Sprut-SD and BMD-4M. I think if both VDV and marines press for them, there will be better chances for starting production.

flamming_python

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Post n°36

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

flamming_python Tue May 15, 2012 1:08 am

medo wrote:As I know, naval infantry also show interest for Sprut-SD and BMD-4M. I think if both VDV and marines press for them, there will be better chances for starting production.

Why would the Marines go for the BMD-4M, when they can have the BMP-3? (albeit it didn't pass trials but apparently KurganMashZavod has corrected the shortcomings)

Or the Sprut-SD; when they can use T-80s with snorkling equipment? Well actually; I can certainly see some potential for Sprut-SDs to be used concurrently with BMP-3s or BTR-80s, all disembarking the craft before storming the beaches, or as a rapidly moving unit that would have the ability to cross rivers and so on without delay.

GarryB

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Post n°37

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Tue May 15, 2012 7:36 am

Yes, the benefit of the BMD-4M is light weight, which for the VDV means air dropped.

For the Marines I would suspect a navalised Kurganets-25 altered to allow it to operate in much heavier sea states than the standard Army model (which only has to cross rivers and lakes).

TR1

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Post n°38

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TR1 Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:33 am

http://topwar.ru/19716-vladimir-shamanov-zaschitil-boevuyu-mashinu-desanta.html

Shamanov again re-iterates the necessity and desire for the BMD-4M.
By the sound of it, the General Staff is ignoring what the VDV desires, and is pushing its own vision on the force- one that will only fight irregular forces and needs MRAPs.
Just great.

GarryB

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Post n°39

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:41 am

The problem with fixating on mine tolerance is that it is rubbish.

Waste time getting a vehicle that can withstand 6kgs of HE and guess what... the enemy will start putting 10kgs of HE in their IEDS... they aren't stupid... even if they are aholes.

The point is that for normal airborne missions the BMD-4M will be operating in an enemy rear area where the risk of mines and IEDs would be incredibly low.

If they need to perform a peacekeeping role or a COIN type situation where IEDs are a threat there are plenty of light MRAP vehicles for them to choose from.

As I mentioned above in Afghanistan they took to operating from BMP-2M vehicles with add on armour when used in the ground role, and if such a situation was to eventuate again they could use tracked Kurganets or Boomerang-25 if needed.

Clearly they want to operate with BMD-4M because it suits their needs and after 2016 they will adapt the vehicle with the new sensor and electronics suite applied to the three vehicle families used by the Army, so they will have a level of compatibility and commonality.

TR1

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Post n°40

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TR1 Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:59 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7yLZnu447Bs

Great BMD-4M video.

Cyberspec

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Post n°41

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Cyberspec Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:13 am

Maybe the new defence minister will have a change of heart regarding the BMD-4M.

Mindstorm

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Post n°42

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Mindstorm Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:56 pm

As expected the lack of order of BMD-4M for VDV by part of Russian Defense Ministery was linked to the work now going on on a version of next generation "Kurganet" adapted for the role.

http://ria.ru/interview/20121112/910435247.html

Naturally that don't eliminate capability gap in the meantime the prspective version of Kurganet will be tested, cproduced and introduced. Probably the best solution would be an aimed adoption of limited number of BMD-4M to be eventually converted in future to specialized reconnaissance vehicle.

Cyberspec

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Post n°43

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Cyberspec Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:29 am

If the commander of the VDV says he needs it, then it's safe to assume there's a need for it no matter what the bean counters sitting in their offices say. It's significantly more capable than the BMD-2. The upgrades they're carrying out lately (on the BMD-1/2) are fairly modest. I think it involves replacing the radios and I think a sat. receiver. AFAIK, the sights remain the same....the Nona (SO-120) are getting the same gear as well.

They wouldn't need to order a large number anyway. They could add a company of BMD-4M's to every BMD battalion to beef up the fire power till the new vehicle arrives. I think the 76th Division already has a company of the original BMD-4

medo

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Post n°44

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

medo Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:13 pm

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/12/08/bmd/

It seems VDV will finally get new BMD-4 vehicles.

TR1

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Post n°45

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TR1 Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:14 pm

Hmm, stay tuned. It is still VDV asking/demanding the vehicles, in the past it was Genshtab and Civies who opposed it.

Mr.Kalishnikov47

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Post n°46

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Mr.Kalishnikov47 Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:12 pm

TvZvezda is reporting the same thing.

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201212081819-k1er.htm

The airborne forces have adopted a new combat vehicle BMD-4 . This was on the radio station "Echo of Moscow", said the Hero of Russia, the commander of the 31st Guards separate Airborne Brigade Airborne Guards Colonel Gennady Anashkin. According to him, it is necessary that the BMD-4 were delivered to the troops as soon as possible.

BMD-4 weighs just over thirteen and a half tons. It is capable of speeds in excess of seventy miles an hour. Fighting machine, run by a crew of two, equipped with a quick-firing gun stomillimetrovym, tridtsatimillimetrovoy cannon and coaxial machine gun. In addition, the BMD-4 mounted missiles. The design allows the crew to parachute from aircraft.

So is this official?

Cyberspec

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Post n°47

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

Cyberspec Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:41 am

Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:So is this official?

IMO it isn't yet. They're just quoting the statement from that officer to a radio station. But it looks like there is a push from the military for it to be inducted...what's strange is they're talking about the BMD-4 (not M).

TR1

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Post n°48

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

TR1 Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:20 am

http://twower.livejournal.com/942320.html

So, finally VDV will get new vehicles.
10 BMD-4M and 10 Rakushkas in 2013.

FURTHER:

Shamanov wants to add a helicopter unit to the 31st Separate Air Assault Brigade, composed of 40 Mi-8s and 20 Mi-24s.
Further, they want to add Mi-26s to the unit.

GarryB

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Post n°49

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

GarryB Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:54 am

31st Separate Air Assault Brigade doesn't have any armour AFAIK, and they have to walk to their objectives like western airborne forces do.

Equipping it with Hips and Hinds... preferably new models with DIRCMs and all weather systems for day and night use would make it a very potent force that was much more mobile than before.

When fighting guerilla forces they would be able to inflict serious damage and fly blocking units to set up ambushes for likely escape routes ahead of a retreating enemy force. The vastly improved fire power of the upgraded models should more than make up for their lack of ground vehicles... even just adding laser range finders and stabilised sights with thermal and video optics in the Hinds should allow much more efficient use of guns and unguided rockets and ATGMs. The current model Hind with a twin 23mm cannon in a nose turret would be a very potent weapon too.

medo

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Post n°50

Re: BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka:

medo Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:51 pm

I'm sure they have in mind Mi-35 and not Mi-24. Hind will be proper for VDV, it could carry some soldiers and could as well protect landing zone for Mi-8 helicopters.

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BMD-4M and BTR-MD Rakushka: