Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

The Russians knew perfectly well how many Soviet air defense systems Ukraine had.

They did, but unlike the west they didn't plan to fight the Ukraine in open conflict right up until just before the time they did which really didn't give them much time to do anything about it. Secondly, they had believed this was an internal issue for Ukraine with provinces that were not happy with Kievs treatment of them and their interests, so why would they think in terms of fighting Ukraine... but third and most of all Ukraine would have collapsed in months without the enormous money and material support from the west, but they adapted their tactics to suit a grinding conflict that bleeds the Ukraine so that no matter who is supporting them and with what they should win.

I don't think the west was smart enough to do that anywhere and they have fought in quite a lot of places.

And they had encountered Ukrainian upgraded Buks and Osas in Georgia in 2008. They were a problem back then. Several aircraft Su-25 were shot down. They even shot down a Tu-22M3.

Those systems have evolved over decades to defeat HATO forces with their super air power, but you think Russia can just flick a switch and just fly around safe like they are not there? The west spent trillions of dollars on stealthy aircraft that are not safe over Russian and Soviet air defences, but you think Russia knows the secret and has a special plane or missile or electronic box that will keep all their aircraft safe?

The Ukraine air defence force has been reduced to letting Russia pummel Ukrainian military targets and occasionally setting up an ambush to surprise the occasional Russian aircraft that looks vulnerable.... including cargo planes carrying their own POWs.

And Georgia didn't have more advanced systems like the S-300PS.

Perhaps you have never studied war before... planes get shot down and air defence systems are often the reason why they get shot down.

Sometimes even western air defence systems get lucky.

It was perfectly well known that Ukraine had a hostile regime in place at least since 2014. So this was a major Russia planning failure for sure.

Yes... they didn't order the billion tons of bubble wrap to wrap all their aircraft and ordinance and drones sufficient to protect them from everything.... or are they incompetent.... they bought it but didn't apply it because they wanted their aircraft to actually be able to fly and deliver the ordinance they were ordered to deliver.

90km seems a little short.

It does if you ignore the plus sign next to it. At a guess I would say the 90km range models will be for export soon, and the longer ranged ones will be for domestic use only... or they just want to keep the max range to themselves... no point letting the enemy know how far they can reach just yet.

GarryB wrote:they adapted their tactics to suit a grinding conflict that bleeds the Ukraine so that no matter who is supporting them and with what they should win.

I don't think the west was smart enough to do that anywhere and they have fought in quite a lot of places.

The only reason Russia can do this is because they are fighting right next to their economic core. The US fights expeditionary wars on the other side of the globe. Imagine they went into an attrition war like that. The logistics footprint would have been impossible for them.

lancelot wrote:

GarryB wrote:they adapted their tactics to suit a grinding conflict that bleeds the Ukraine so that no matter who is supporting them and with what they should win.

I don't think the west was smart enough to do that anywhere and they have fought in quite a lot of places.

The only reason Russia can do this is because they are fighting right next to their economic core. The US fights expeditionary wars on the other side of the globe. Imagine they went into an attrition war like that. The logistics footprint would have been impossible for them.

Yes but this is the reason Russia is so committed. Ukraine is next door, it used to be part of the russian world and it is inhabited by (brainwashed) ethnic russians (who have been made believe they are everything but russian.
Russia would not have needed to fight back in the same if USA had spent a similar effort to try a regime change in Cuba or in Venezuela, because losing them and having hostile countries there would not have been a threat against russian statehood.


I also mean: of course USA wished and tried for a regime change in Cuba and Venezuela, but in the recent past did not spend a similar amount of effort or resources compared to what they "invested" in the Ukraine.

The only reason Russia can do this is because they are fighting right next to their economic core. The US fights expeditionary wars on the other side of the globe.

Yeah, the Americans are colonial bastards... no need to remind me... that is why they spend so much on murder every year.

Imagine they went into an attrition war like that. The logistics footprint would have been impossible for them.

They have their war of drugs on their borders... which they are losing.

The US is a global force, but not omnipotent... they got beaten by China in Korea and by Vietnam in Vietnam, and that taught them to be more careful about their victims... make sure they are weak and isolated, or infiltrate them and do it all on the quiet...

The fact of the matter is that the US needs countries to feed on and they also fear genuine rivals like Russia and China, so they are trying to tick two boxes at once... consume the Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland and Georgia and any Stans that will let them, because if they succeed in consuming those countries and they manage to damage Russia then they can start consuming Russia too and will be on Chinas doorstep... guess what happens to China next... and then India of course if they don't do what they are told... the EU is almost sucked dry and US tentacles have been exposed in Africa near things of value...

The US are monsters.

They spend trillions a year... their military budget plus the money the CIA spends on top of that is an enormous amount of money, but they really don't get any value for money which is their core problem moving forward.

When was the last time the US said... we can do this a few ways... lets do it the cost effective way...

The US politicians and US pentagon officials are all part of the corruption and don't care about saving money... if they saved money they might realise they don't need to spend that much per year and what the US is really about is bribery and corruption around the world.

Universelle interspezifische Gleitmunition UMPB D-30SN. (Translation from Russian)

I can't find a "Russian guided bombs" thread. There must be one somewhere. Can someone put this post in the right place please?

Not clear which SatNav system it actually uses.

fish ????
@fisherofsea
Russia successfully apparently reverse-engineered U.S GBU-39, with longer distance and higher power, D-30-SN.

D-30-SN apparently uses Chinese GPS microchip, and Russian Stealth Composite Material, and Titanium Parts.

Chinese GPS chip gives greater accuracy than U.S  Starlink.

I´m pretty sure Russia uses russian-made GLONASS chips.

Edit: I shouldn't be too harsh.

Lets just say that Johnin is reposting from people who dont know shit about military equipment. They pretend to be pro Russian while not understanding Russian or Russian science and technology. So they just assume that Russia makes nothing and everything is Iranian and Chinese made. These people are worst than the enemies of Russia as they spread nothing but bullshit but pretending to be patriotic towards Russia.

These same people cannot tell the difference between a tank and a BMP.

Army Recognition wrote:Central to the design of the UMPB D-30 SN is its design based on the modified FAB-250 free-falling bomb, illustrating a strategic enhancement of existing ordnance with advanced guidance systems. Characterized as a glide bomb, the UMPB D-30 SN is engineered to be released from the aircraft, thereafter gliding towards its target to achieve extended range capabilities beyond traditional free-fall bombs. This design incorporates deployable wings, an additional rocket motor, and a guidance unit linked with the GLONASS satellite navigation system, showcasing a significant technological upgrade aimed at increasing strike effectiveness.

https://armyrecognition.com/focus-analysis-conflicts/army/conflicts-in-the-world/russia-ukraine-war-2022/breaking-news-ukrainian-city-of-kharkiv-hit-by-new-russian-umpb-d-30-sn-guided-bombs-in-first-use

JohninMK wrote:I can't find a "Russian guided bombs" thread. There must be one somewhere. Can someone put this post in the right place please?

Not clear which SatNav system it actually uses.

fish ????
@fisherofsea
Russia successfully apparently reverse-engineered U.S GBU-39, with longer distance and higher power, D-30-SN.

D-30-SN apparently uses Chinese GPS microchip, and Russian Stealth Composite Material, and Titanium Parts.

Chinese GPS chip gives greater accuracy than U.S  Starlink.

They have kometa receiver with Glonass - you can find this all over TG tbh

It is a narrow slimlined weapon that is also designed so that it can be fitted to the nose of a 300mm Smerch rocket (with the warhead removed of course) and launched by rocket to extend its range so that it can be used as a guided ground launched missile.

The real range from the MRLS is still a mystery. Some state 100 - 120km, but I saw claims recently of up to 300km.

Hole wrote:The real range from the MRLS is still a mystery. Some state 100 - 120km, but I saw claims recently of up to 300km.

It will be just the same story as with any other aeroballistic piece.
Its range varies depending on height and release speed - and this is a giant difference.
As for satellite navigation, Kometa uses GPS, Glonass, and BeiDou.  
Most of the modern receivers on the civil market can use all three. Maybe not in YuRope  

Having the three of them and a software that detects jamming and switch to the other is a good way to bypass jamming.

US gps munition seem to be jammable by Russia including Himars rockets and GBU bombs.

It would be quit hard to effectively jamm all three.

Moreover jamming comes from the ground most of the time. Having half a farady cage that covers underneath the electronic boards is a way to reduce it. That's something Iranian and Russians do. I remember seeing something about that, since the Kometa looks for satelittes signals coming from the up it filters the ones coming from bellow. That also why iraqi and yemeni drones reach Israel despit israeli constantly jamming the GPS.

Isos wrote:

It would be quit hard to effectively jamm all three.

No, it is quite easy.
All share a frequency spectrum and are different only by a margin.
But you are jamming your own effectiveness in the area making your own tools fragile.
Plus, you can use the fact that the opponent does not use different platforms, so you can jam targetly.

Just checked and you are right. A modern jammer shoukd be able to jamm them togather.

But again the fact they are mostly ground based is an issue.

Maybe the best jammer would be a very flying drone or ballon that immitates a gps satelitte and would send fake coordinates. The more you send in the air the better the spoofing.

Isos wrote:Just checked and you are right.

Oh, is it that you have searched by accident for the beardy guy who said that about a week ago on YT?
Can't be the case!

I read an article in an American site that mentioned that at high latitudes (and presumably low latitudes too) and also in cities with tall buildings that GLONASS is better than GPS because of the orbital angles of the satellites and the signal frequencies.

Countries like Norway were working with GLONASS because the signal is more reliable in mountains in such northern areas.

Also that US emergency services continued to use GLONASS much to the disgust of US politicians like John McCain because the signals were easier to pick up inside buildings and also between tall buildings like in a CBD of a city.

When you say jamming, what you mean is provide an alternative signal that the platform mistakes for the real signal leading it to think it is somewhere that it is not. The odds of such a signal equating to the same location in 3D space with three different satellite systems is rather remote.

Essentially a GPS system works by taking a minimum of three signals from three different GPS satellites and based on the time they arrive at the tracker tells you exactly where you are in relation to those three satellites... quick bit of maths and you can locate yourself on the surface of the planet... or your location above the surface of the planet. Most receivers probable get the signal from dozens of satellites at one time, and separating the signals from the three different systems should give three distinct locations which can all be compared with the inertial navigation location. A jamming signal pretending to be GPS might move that location point, but one jamming signal is unlikely to be able to pretend to be all three systems signals. You would need three jamming signals at least to pretend to be the wrong coordinate for all three navigation systems, and most modern inertial navigation systems are already rather accurate anyway. A device or weapon with a terminal seeker wont matter too much if it ignores all external signals for navigation... expecting them to be jammed anyway.

Several long range ballistic missiles actually use star positions to navigate once they leave the atmosphere they look for stars and use those to navigate... would be a real trick to jam those.

GarryB wrote:I read an article in an American site that mentioned that at high latitudes (and presumably low latitudes too) and also in cities with tall buildings that GLONASS is better than GPS because of the orbital angles of the satellites and the signal frequencies.

This is not very relevant.
All modern civilian GPS receivers operate both GLONASS and GPS, while the ones made in China (guess the % ) operate Chinese BeiDou as well.
There are receivers that are using all five global systems, including Galileo and that Indian one I don't remember the name now.
You can have a GPS receiver operating all four major systems for $15 ...

Any model phone receives both GPS, Glonass, Galileo and Chinese. As Alamo wrote, it is now standard.

The real range from the MRLS is still a mystery. Some state 100 - 120km, but I saw claims recently of up to 300km.

Well the ballistic range of standard Smerch rockets at the moment is claimed to be between 120km and 150km, but this weapon, when released at speed and altitude from an aircraft is supposed to reach up to 160km, so 300km is probably quite realistic for a smerch launched bomb.

This is not very relevant.

It is if there are enough John McCain type loonies in the US who will demand the GLONASS and Beidu systems not be used because they are communist and could be used to spy on America...

There is no perfect satellite network system, but as I pointed out in cities with tall buildings or in places like Afghanistan with tall mountains and also Norway (that block GPS satellites more than GLONASS satellites because of the orbits) Navstar gets patchy in some conditions, and GLONASS does better is such demanding conditions.

Any model phone receives both GPS, Glonass, Galileo and Chinese. As Alamo wrote, it is now standard.

I know, I said as much in a discussion a few years ago about commercial GPS devices... it was when someone posted an image of a Garmin GPS system in a Russian aircraft and claimed Russian GPS must be crap if they used western GPS... and I pointed out that that western GPS system uses GLONASS too.

I also pointed out that just because your desktop computer can act as a calculator, some people who do a lot of calculations as part of their work might have a physical calculator on the desk, especially if it is a particularly good one. Custom design devices often do better jobs than multi purpose devices.

Having a GPS device indicating the direction to the target or to home base and the distance, that is always visible in a helicopter or aircraft is useful.

BTW regarding jamming the Russians are using AI in their drones to overcome jamming that blocks the drone from operator control. The AI system finds and identifies targets in real time and determines if they are enemy targets and if they are it attacks them even under full jamming. The hit rate is something like 90% or so, which is rather impressive and the price is 40,000 to 69,000 rubles... which is $410-$710 US dollars at current rates.

I'm assuming that the AI also has the function of lock on jamming, meaning it would also strike at the jamming device.

No. The AI device seems to be a computer board that likely analyses the video signal from the camera and interprets the view in front of the drone looking for potential targets and flying towards them to see if they are targets or something else. For instance a bush in the middle of an open field might be suspicious so you fly towards it... if you detect heat signatures inside the bush as you get closer using video camera and thermal camera views then it is probably a camouflaged enemy vehicle or position. These drones only have a range of about 8km so they would only operate over enemy territory to prevent own goals.


Orc jammers on the other hand will be trying to jam the 2.4 and 5.2 GHz control and video data transmission channels to render the drone blind and dumb, so it can't send video footage to the operator and cannot receive commands to return home. Some drones when they lose command signal will return to where they were launched which could be used by an enemy to find where you are launching them from... a jammer drone finds your drone and jams it and then follows it to where it lands and artillery is called on that location to try to get the operators.

Analyst: Russia uses new aerial bomb leaving planes unreachable for Ukraine air defence, 11.09.2024.

The new Grom-E1 aerial bombs, which can cover distances of up to 120 km thanks to the rocket engine, have appeared in the arsenal of Russian aviation, a military analyst writes in an article for The Telegraph.

According to expert David Axe, Grom-E1 bombs allow to carry out attacks from Su-30 and Su-34 aircraft, while remaining unreachable for most means of anti-aircraft defence of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, as well as for modern F-16 fighters with AMRAAM air-to-air missiles.

Axe also said Grom-E1s have already been used to attack targets in Mirnograd, Kherson and Kharkov.

The analyst notes that in return, the Ukrainian army tries to use French-made Hammer guided air bombs and American JSOW air bombs, but their range is almost twice as short, being only 64 kilometres, so Ukrainian aircraft enter the zone of operation of Russian S-300 and S-400 air defence systems, as well as Su-30 aircraft with R-77 missiles.

Grom-E1 is equipped with the engine in the tail section, the Grom-E2 instead of the engine has an additional combat charge explosive fragmentation. The bomb-missile is directed via satellite and is designed to hit a wide range of vulnerable ground targets. The ammunition has a mass of approximately 600 kg, a combat unit 315 kilogrammes and the maximum launch range of 120 kilometres. The Grom-E1 can be fitted to aircraft of all types.

Yandex Translate from Portuguese.

https://noticiabrasil.net.br/20241109/analista-russia-usa-nova-bomba-aerea-deixando-avioes-inalcancaveis-para-defesa-antiaerea-da-ucrania-37281861.html