Project 667BDRM/Delta IV

I know -
but it's still Delta IV (Stretched)
misplaced?

rambo54 wrote:I know -
but it's still Delta IV (Stretched)
misplaced?

no its ok, i just reported some info

seems that Severodvinsk got new image update on GE exposing the BS-64

Russian Pacific Fleet nuclear sub successfully live-fires sea-launched ICBM

The nuclear sub’s successful test-firing showed high level of the Pacific Fleet submarine forces’ readiness

MOSCOW, October 12. /TASS/. The Russian Pacific Fleet’s Project 667BDR (Kalmar class) Georgy Pobedonosets nuclear submarine has successfully live-fired a sea-launched intercontinental ballistic missile from the Sea of Okhotsk at the Chizha practice range in north Russia, the press office of Russia’s Defense Ministry said on Wednesday.

"The launch was carried out from the submerged position. The missile’s warhead arrived at the Chizha practice range in north Russia at the designated time," the press office said.

The nuclear sub’s successful test-firing showed "the high level of the Pacific Fleet submarine forces’ readiness and confirmed the efficiency of the system of the sea-based strategic nuclear forces’ combat control," the Defense Ministry said.

"The actions of the commander and the crew of the nuclear submarine Georgy Pobedonosets have been recognized as professional and competent. The crew is ready to accomplish tasks as part of the constant alert forces," the Defense Ministry said.

More:
http://tass.com/defense/906014?_ga=1.102415937.1337049799.1447427261

Service Life Extension of Project 667BDR & 667BDRM Submarines Makes No Sense - Rubin CEO

The extension of the Project 667BDR and Project 667BDRM submarines’ service life makes no sense as they do not meet future requirements, CEO of Russia’s Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering Igor Vilnit said. Vilnit made this statement in an interview with Rambler News Service.

Project 667BDR Delta III SSBN Submarine k433 Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets RussiaProject 667BDR SSBN "Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets" (K-433). Russian Navy picture.

"Considering the potential service life extension, the ‘youngest’ submarines have been operational for almost 30 years. The stealth of these submarines does not always meet present-day requirements, let alone future ones. Thus, the extension of their service life is unreasonable," Vilnit said.

According to him, the Project 966 submarine fleet is adequate both to economic and national security situations.

"Can we continue to cut the number of strategic submarines without reducing the effectiveness of deterrence? Unlikely," the CEO said.

"Our country’s political situation and geographical position force our Northern and Pacific Fleets to operate strategic submarines. If their number continues to decrease, we may face an unpleasant situation - there will be no submarine at sea and the grouping’s combat effectiveness and, as a result, deterrence effectiveness will decline," he added.

The Project 667BDR nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine is designed to destroy the enemy’s strategic facilities. It can also launch torpedoes to fight surface and underwater targets.

The Project 667BDRM nuclear-powered submarine is armed with 16 intercontinental ballistic missiles of various types, as well as four nose-based 533mm torpedo systems.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/january-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4812-service-life-extension-of-project-667bdr-667bdrm-submarines-makes-no-sense-rubin-ceo.html

What are the odds of these Deltas being converted into arsenal ships/missile farms?

They may no longer pass the mustard as SSBNs but having 50+ Kalibr missiles on proven available ship with skeleton crew will definitely come in handy in the era of neocolonial wars we have boldly entered.

Arrow wrote:Borey has a problem with Bulava missile.

What problem? Its being solved.

The thing is that Rubin thinks its more reasonable to allocate more funds for 5th gen subs than modernization of the projects development of the 70ies

especially when you have limited resources and once Boreis are here to stay and I agree with them. Still Delta class could still have its useful applications.

Viktor wrote:

Arrow wrote:Borey has a problem with Bulava missile.

What problem? Its being solved.

The thing is that Rubin thinks its more reasonable to allocate more funds for 5th gen subs than modernization of the projects development of the 70ies

especially when you have limited resources and once Boreis are here to stay and I agree with them. Still Delta class could still have its useful applications.

That is what I was talking about. They are poor SSBNs by today's standards due to noise but they can used as arsenal ships. Noise would not matter in this role.

And when I say that I do not mean convert them into attack subs like Isos assumed.  They can't be used for that (too loud and slow)

I mean replace ICBM tubes with UKSK launchers (a lot of them) staff them with basic crew (targets will be received from other ships and many other functions will not be needed in this role) and use them as mobile warehouse for LACMs. They can be as loud as surface vessels in this role but it would be irelevant since diving would no longer be priority because they would be practically used as surface ships.

Just look at Syria. One cruiser and pair of frigates or corvettes supported by this modified sub would be very useful. Ships provide data, sub stays behind and launches missiles. Once it's out of missiles it goes back to port while other ships stay on duty with full load of their missiles loaded and ready.

They would not be as useful in near-peer conflicts but they would be great for these low-tier wars. Three ships instead of whole group. Especially when you take Russia's lack of aircraft carriers into account. And if they develop some cheaper simpler LACM even better. Makes you think?

Scraping these ships would be wasteful. They could be used for something else as well like mothership for spy subs (e.g. Podmoskovlye). There should be other options as well.

PapaDragon wrote:
That is what I was talking about. They are poor SSBNs by today's standards due to noise but they can used as arsenal ships. Noise would not matter in this role.

And when I say that I do not mean convert them into attack subs like Isos assumed.  They can't be used for that (too loud and slow)

I mean replace ICBM tubes with UKSK launchers (a lot of them) staff them with basic crew (targets will be received from other ships and many other functions will not be needed in this role) and use them as mobile warehouse for LACMs. They can be as loud as surface vessels in this role but it would be irelevant since diving would no longer be priority because they would be practically used as surface ships.

Just look at Syria. One cruiser and pair of frigates or corvettes supported by this modified sub would be very useful. Ships provide data, sub stays behind and launches missiles. Once it's out of missiles it goes back to port while other ships stay on duty with full load of their missiles loaded and ready.

They would not be as useful in near-peer conflicts but they would be great for these low-tier wars. Three ships instead of whole group. Especially when you take Russia's lack of aircraft carriers into account. And if they develop some cheaper simpler LACM even better.  Makes you think?

Scraping these ships would be wasteful. They could be used for something else as well like mothership for spy subs (e.g. Podmoskovlye). There should be other options as well.

Agreed, particularly with the Delfin boats. I think the Kalmars are long in the tooth, but depending on their condition could still be useful conversions for special purposes like the Orenburg as a mini-sub carrier).

Even in a near-peer conflict, Delfin SSGN conversions with 2500km range Kalibres would be useful for long-range land-attack platforms when operating deep within Russian waters. If the RuN can provide appropriate targetting and mid-course corrections, they would be useful for stand-off mass salvo attacks against HATO surface units/formations. Three Kalibres per Sineva silo (should be plausible) gives 48 missiles per hull, a strike force that would keep HATO war(crime) planners up with some sleepless nights, bless their little psychopathic souls...

Well they might not be as quiet as newer subs but an arsenal ship with the sub equivalent of UKSK tubes could easily be used in a conventional war as a bomb truck with 3000km range land attack cruise missiles but could be used in WWIII with supersonic and hypersonic anti ship missiles as a sort of mobile coastal battery...

No carrier would get very close with that sort of threat around...

A skeleton crew could be used as targets could be detected via satellite (ie carriers and carrier groups) and the target data could be used to position the sub for a launch if the targets try to move too close...

GarryB wrote:Well they might not be as quiet as newer subs but an arsenal ship with the sub equivalent of UKSK tubes could easily be used in a conventional war as a bomb truck with 3000km range land attack cruise missiles but could be used in WWIII with supersonic and hypersonic anti ship missiles as a sort of mobile coastal battery...

No carrier would get very close with that sort of threat around...

A skeleton crew could be used as targets could be detected via satellite (ie carriers and carrier groups) and the target data could be used to position the sub for a launch if the targets try to move too close...

Exactly. Although anti-ship function would be a stretch in today's environment but since launchers are universal it is default secondary function anyway.

Sort of like discount Zumwalt. Not that Russia needs one but if you already have old sub that works why not use it.

It covers basic two functions that Elmo has:

Land attack missiles: whole lot of them even if they just stuff Kalibr adapters in Sineva tubes. Even more if they replace Sineva tubes with mucho UKSK.

Low observability: once it's submerged no radar will detect it, naturally. Heck, that's even more stealth than Elmo right there.

And as a bonus it has sonar and torpedo tubes for basic self-defense against other vessels should SHTF. More than Zumwalt when you think about it. Not bad for old and (by now) cheap to operate sub.

Ryazan Project 667BDR submarine is back in service

One of the three remaining Project 667BDR submarines, Ryazan, has returned to its base in Vilyuchinsk after an overhaul at the Zvezda plant in Vladivostok.

The submarine was transferred to the Pacific from the Northern Fleet in 2008. It began its overhaul in 2012 and its return to service was delayed a number of times.

Ryazan is an old submarine - it began service in 1982. It is not clear what is the reason submarines of this class are kept in service, but they seem to be doing reasonably well. Each submarine carries 16 R-29R missiles with three warheads, so the return of Ryazan will increase the New START warhead count.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2017/02/ryazan_project_667bdr_submarin.shtml

And as a bonus it has sonar and torpedo tubes for basic self-defense against other vessels should SHTF. More than Zumwalt when you think about it. Not bad for old and (by now) cheap to operate sub.

they already have Delta III and Delta IVs as mothersubs for underwater research so it would not be like they have these arsenal ships operating in absence of any others of the type...

In a few years time there should be enough Boreis that they could convert to underwater research and arsenal roles... till then it would make sense...

Strategic Nuclear Forces Drills

Project 667BDRM submarines will stay in service until 2029

According to the commander of the Northern Fleet, Nikolay Evmenov, the Tula submarine of the Project 667BDRM/Delta IV class will stay in service until 2029 (as will be the Gepard submarine of the Project 971 class). It's not clear why Tula was singled out - it is not the last submarine to complete overhaul. After Tula left Zvezdochka in December 2017, its place was taken by Bryansk. It appears that Tula will be one of the last Project 667BDRM submarines to be withdrawn - according to Evmenov, Project 955 Borey and Project 885 Yasen submarines will form the backbone of the Russian submarine fleet in 2030.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2019/03/project_667bdrm_submarines_wil.shtml

About that idea of converting Deltas into SSGNs Ohio-style apparently USSR has done it before with Project 667AT Grusha/Yankee Notch class SSBN which were converted to SSGN armed with 3K10 Sampson SLCMs

More food for thought

"Yankee Notch (Project 667AT Grusha class): These converted subs were attack submarines and first appeared in 1983; four Yankee I boats were rebuilt to this configuration. They incorporated a "notch waisted" center section, which replaced the old ballistic missile compartment, featuring eight 533-millimetre (21 in) torpedo tubes for up to 40 SS-N-21 missiles or additional torpedoes. The forward torpedo tubes were retained as well, with some reports suggesting that the vessels may have also been able to fire 650 mm (26 in) Type 65 torpedoes. The emphasis on additional SS-N-21 missile carriage suggested a tactical role for these submarines, or as second-strike nuclear submarines. Their configuration was a combination of SALT treaty limitations (which affected SLBMs but not cruise missiles) and a typical Soviet unwillingness to completely discard any military hardware that might still have some use. The conversion increased the overall length by 12 metres (39.4 ft) to 141.5 m (464 ft), with a displacement of up to 11,500 tons submerged. While classed as SSNs (attack subs), these boats might also be considered SSGNs by virtue of their heavy missile armament."

Quote from Wiki.

At least 10 conversions were planned.

Good pic of the Yankee "notch" variant that nicely shows the exit notch for the extra torp tubes.  PDs pic is a good one, as it nicely shows the reload hatches in the fwd part of the modified dorsal bulge.

While we are on the subject, I'm going to indulge in a little OT reminiscence and post a piccie of the Yankeee "sidecar" variant, the one-off conversion of a 667 to carry two rows of the 3M25/P-750/SS-N-24 "Meteorite".



doG above, what an ugly beast....  I can imagine the naval architects crying at their drawing boards as they laboured to corrupt the already lumpish lines of the 667 to create this hideous mutant.        I don't suppose however there were many tears shed when this monstrosity was finally scrapped...