Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

Russians also have tu-22M, oscars ... to deal with enemy fleets.
China can't face Akulas and Yasen. Even 5 of them would be deadly for them.

right. Besides, the Japan & Okhotsk seas r semi-closed & thus easier to defend. The PLAN would be too busy engaging the USN & JMSDF which may help Russia in a hypothetical war with China.
With those new nuke torpedoes, the entire Chinese coast is vulnerable.

jhelb wrote:...Without AIP they want launch Lada...

Two under construction (one about to be delivered and one launched) and two on order

Lada is already happening

jhelb wrote:...There was this submarine called S-1000 that Rubin was supposed to design with Fincantieri of Italy. Not sure how much progress that project made. Hardly read anything about that in the Russian media.

This is a fantasy just like Lider destroyer, not happening

There's a reason why you haven't read anything about it

PapaDragon wrote:Two under construction (one about to be delivered and one launched) and two on order

These 4 new Ladas will replace the obsolete Kilos.

Probably Ladas will get AIP a few years down the line.

Alrosa in Baltics, they are doing something with her definitely:

Didn't let this one rust in the black sea for years ?

I guess either scraping or making it a research submarine with UUV.

Isos wrote:Didn't let this one rust in the black sea for years ?
I guess either scraping or making it a research submarine with UUV.

More likely they are converting her to standard Kilo and sending her into service

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:Didn't let this one rust in the black sea for years ?
I guess either scraping or making it a research submarine with UUV.

More likely they are converting her to standard Kilo and sending her into service

That would be weired. It's an old sub with pump jet. If they wanted to upgrade an old kilo to improve kilo, they should have taken a normal sub without the pump jet.

It would be a bad idea to make it a UUV carrier. All the others are nuclear powered. This one would fit perfectly in closed seas without being expensive.

I don't think they will be keeping pump-jet but it's all guesswork at this point

Alrosa in Baltics, they are doing something with her definitely:

[citation needed] that its Alrosa, in the Baltics & recent.
Alrosa was in Baltics for repair in I think 2012.
But I've seen no indication its left the dock-side in Sevastopol since the incident.
Last seen late last year it was still very much not seaworthy & there's been no news of it moving.

Edit: Balancer post with that pic translates as

Alrosa continues to prepare for the Baltic
01/27/2020

So its still in drydock in Sevastopol since June last year
https://www.russiadefence.net/t4868p400-project-877-636-kilo-class-ssk#257885

I was conflating late 2018/early 2019 with this year, had forgotten it went into drydock last year

Correct, she is preparing for Baltic not already there

My bad, should have used translator page instead of eyeballing it

Isos wrote:Didn't let this one rust in the black sea for years ?

I guess either scraping or making it a research submarine with UUV.

Isn't it true that Myanmar is trying to purchase a KILO class submarine from Russia? I understand they are currently training on a kilo class submarine that India has leased out to them.

jhelb wrote:

Isos wrote:Didn't let this one rust in the black sea for years ?

I guess either scraping or making it a research submarine with UUV.

Isn't it true that Myanmar is trying to purchase a KILO class submarine from Russia? I understand they are currently training on a kilo class submarine that India has leased out to them.

I saw a picture of a kilo in Myanmar on twitter. I don't know the story behind that event. Maybe they will buy an old russian one after it goes to repair. Maybe could be this one.

India to purchase 3 used KILO class submarines

Seems India is trying to purchase 3 more used Kilo class submarines.

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/indian-navy-submarine-kilo-class-russian-arms-deal-indo-russian-inter-governmental-technical-commission-irigtc/story/1/32600.html

I wonder if these used subs can be upgraded to Russian standards. Weren't several new technologies introduced to Russian KILO's?

GarryB wrote:Would depend what India want... as they are the customer they can spend as much or as little as they like with new second hand subs.

This seems to be a lease, similar to the lease agreement that they have with Russia for nuclear submarines.

That aside, what are the technologies that are currently absent on Indian KILO submarines that can potentially be added ?

jhelb wrote:India to purchase 3 used KILO class submarines

Seems India is trying to purchase 3 more used Kilo class submarines.

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/indian-navy-submarine-kilo-class-russian-arms-deal-indo-russian-inter-governmental-technical-commission-irigtc/story/1/32600.html

I wonder if these used subs can be upgraded to Russian standards. Weren't several new technologies introduced to Russian KILO's?

Russia proposing something doesn't equal a country doing that thing. With India giving Kilos away to Myanmar I dare say they are done with the class.

IMO they are not happy with the Scorpene. It was detected by Pakistan when snoerkeling and plenty of top secret document were leaked.

Their Kilo are old and need replacement. So there is a big chance they go for a Russian design because :

A) They already bought a western class. And they want to diversify their sources. One will remember how argentinians subs faired poorly in the malvinas because German gave them non-working torpedoes.

B) They are reducing their contracts with Russia too much for new hardware. I doubt they want them to start selling stuff to Pakistan.

Isos wrote:IMO they are not happy with the Scorpene. It was detected by Pakistan when snoerkeling and plenty of top secret document were leaked.

Their Kilo are old and need replacement. So there is a big chance they go for a Russian design because :

A) They already bought a western class. And they want to diversify their sources. One will remember how argentinians subs faired poorly in the malvinas because German gave them non-working torpedoes.

B) They are reducing their contracts with Russia too much for new hardware. I doubt they want them to start selling stuff to Pakistan.

Well but the possible order is for older project 877 (paltus (halibut)/ kilo class), not for the project 636 (varshavyanka/improved kilo) that Russia got for the black sea fleet and is getting for the Pacific fleet.

Most probably there will be an upgrade, but this will not bring them to the same standard of the new built.

But they might make a contract including the upgraded subs with also an order for 6 new kilo or lada (Amur) classes. That would be 6 upgraded by Russia + 2 build in Russia + 4 build in India.

6 more on option to replace the upgraded ones in the future.

Vladimir79 wrote:
Russia proposing something doesn't equal a country doing that thing.  With India giving Kilos away to Myanmar I dare say they are done with the class.

India is a dirt poor country. Beggars can't be choosers. To put things in perspective Russia's Per Capita Income is 10X that of India's.

With a wafer thin submarine fleet they can't afford to give away any submarine. In any case they are sending Kilos back to Russia for upgrade. They have not sold any Kilos to Myanmar. Just leased it to them, so that China cannot sell any subs to Myanmar like they are selling to Bangladesh and Thailand.

Isos wrote:But they might make a contract including the upgraded subs with also an order for 6 new kilo or lada (Amur) classes. That would be 6 upgraded by Russia + 2 build in Russia + 4 build in India.

Purely from a technological perspective what are the technologies present in the new Kilos - Project 636 that are absent in the Project 877 Kilos?

Isos wrote:B) They are reducing their contracts with Russia too much for new hardware. I doubt they want them to start selling stuff to Pakistan.

Regardless of whether or not Hindus reduce or increase contracts with Russia, Russia should sell billions of dollars of weapons to Pakistan. the only caveat should be that Pakistan pays up front. China, US , EU sells billions of dollars of weapons to countries that are rivals.

Russia has made a start by selling Mi 17, ATGMs to Pakistan. They should increase the volume. Unlike Serbia, Belarus Russia has no cultural or social compatability with pagan states like India. Kremlin should not be a hostage to the whims and fancies of India.

Make it very clear to Delhi - we will sell billions of $$ of weapons to Pakistan, unless you buy them yourself. Keep your friends rich, and your enemies rich, and then find out which is which.

Purely from a technological perspective what are the technologies present in the new Kilos - Project 636 that are absent in the Project 877 Kilos?

Same design but everything is more modern like new computers, new sonar... and it can launch klub missiles but I think indian kilos were already upgraded to use them.