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Used the autotranslated captions and it seems this missile is their first multipurpose missile... which makes me think this missile is the front portion of Hermes without the solid rocket booster... or it might be something brand new based on Bulat with optical guidance and a much bigger missile...
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Mi-28N Havoc: News
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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Isos- Posts : 11602
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R 73 is around 20km range wheb launched from helucopters. If the new missile had also a range of 20km it should be normal that it is that big.
On the picture, it seem that there is spacce for 4 missile per pylon. Maybe they just test with 1.
I wouldn't be surprised if the midsile is multi mission capable. With a dual seeker laser and radar, it could engage lot of different targets.
On the picture, it seem that there is spacce for 4 missile per pylon. Maybe they just test with 1.
I wouldn't be surprised if the midsile is multi mission capable. With a dual seeker laser and radar, it could engage lot of different targets.
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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Well they can get a 33kg Kornet-EM missile to travel 10km to a target, and the R-73 is about 110kgs...
I would expect EO guidance would offer the most multirole potential with an IIR sensor as many ground targets wont have a radar cross section that would be lockable, and their autotracking systems already include video processing capability to identify targets in live video...
Just seems a little strange that they have Hermes, which will be a 30km range missile that is a two stage weapon like the SA-19/SA-22 family of missiles which is also a multi target weapon that is tube launched which would enable multiple tubes per pylon, whereas this missile seems to hang from a pylon like an AAM normally carried one missile per pylon (Like and R-73 or indeed one of the Kh-25 types like the AS-10 or AS-12.)
It is odd to test something on a different launch configuration to what you intend to launch it using... I mean why bother testing the missile in a configuration it wont be used in...
Or, why test it in a way it wont be used operationally...
Perhaps they have scaled up the EO guidance of the Bulat fire and forget mini missile used on their IFVs to a bigger longer ranged system.
That video of the Mi-28NM is interesting because they had a wing pylon mounted pod for the guidance of the Krisantema, which is strange because I thought it was supposed to use the mast mounted radar for detection and target guidance of that missile. That means it could only carry 8 Krisantema missiles and the other wing pylon carrying a pod would mean it could not carry other missiles like Ataka or Shturm, so it could carry two 20 shot rocket pods and 8 Krisantema ATGMs, or it could carry 16 ATAKA and two rocket pods...
Still those new guided unguided rockets will be good... I believe it mentioned that the unguided rockets are effective to 4km against area targets, but 8km with guided rockets presumably against point targets it would not be able to reliably hit at 4km with the unguided models... which is a serious improvement.
I would expect EO guidance would offer the most multirole potential with an IIR sensor as many ground targets wont have a radar cross section that would be lockable, and their autotracking systems already include video processing capability to identify targets in live video...
Just seems a little strange that they have Hermes, which will be a 30km range missile that is a two stage weapon like the SA-19/SA-22 family of missiles which is also a multi target weapon that is tube launched which would enable multiple tubes per pylon, whereas this missile seems to hang from a pylon like an AAM normally carried one missile per pylon (Like and R-73 or indeed one of the Kh-25 types like the AS-10 or AS-12.)
It is odd to test something on a different launch configuration to what you intend to launch it using... I mean why bother testing the missile in a configuration it wont be used in...
Or, why test it in a way it wont be used operationally...
Perhaps they have scaled up the EO guidance of the Bulat fire and forget mini missile used on their IFVs to a bigger longer ranged system.
That video of the Mi-28NM is interesting because they had a wing pylon mounted pod for the guidance of the Krisantema, which is strange because I thought it was supposed to use the mast mounted radar for detection and target guidance of that missile. That means it could only carry 8 Krisantema missiles and the other wing pylon carrying a pod would mean it could not carry other missiles like Ataka or Shturm, so it could carry two 20 shot rocket pods and 8 Krisantema ATGMs, or it could carry 16 ATAKA and two rocket pods...
Still those new guided unguided rockets will be good... I believe it mentioned that the unguided rockets are effective to 4km against area targets, but 8km with guided rockets presumably against point targets it would not be able to reliably hit at 4km with the unguided models... which is a serious improvement.
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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Here's some info in English from Tass from a report back in March
Video, but the missile is blurred
It doesn;t look like the Hermes but it's hard to tell for sure
"A new missile, codenamed ‘Article 305,’ is being designed for Mi-28NM. It is intended to destroy armored vehicles and reinforced concrete fortifications in daytime and at night. The range of the missile will exceed 25 kilometers," the source said, adding that one helicopter will carry up to four such missiles on each of its two pylons.
The missile will be guided by the on-board inertial navigation system. Information about the target’s location will be uploaded into the system during the launch. The helicopter, in its turn, will receive the information from its own detection systems or from the integrated troop and weapon management system.
During the final stage of its flight, the new missile will activate the homing device to locate the target in the designated area and to destroy it.
The helicopter’s crew will receive a video signal from the missile via a protected communication channel.
https://tass.com/defense/1049469
Video, but the missile is blurred
It doesn;t look like the Hermes but it's hard to tell for sure
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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Hrizantema-V fired from Mi-28NM...unfortunately, they weren't allowed to film the launch properly only at night....apparently it can penetrate 1.2 m of armour
Video in link (I think it's a fragment from the video Magnum posted previously)
https://twitter.com/vezhlivo/status/1142741599400714241
Video in link (I think it's a fragment from the video Magnum posted previously)
https://twitter.com/vezhlivo/status/1142741599400714241
PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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This is first time I see anyone blurring the missile, why would they do that?
What's there to hide? Engine?
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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The helicopter’s crew will receive a video signal from the missile via a protected communication channel.
So it sends a view of the target back to the launch aircraft presumably for the crew to select the target while the missile is in flight via a datalink... that would enable a range of target types to be engaged effectively... giving the final say to a human in the loop.
hat one helicopter will carry up to four such missiles on each of its two pylons
So up to 8 missiles per helo on the two outer pylons...
It doesn;t look like the Hermes but it's hard to tell for sure
As Lsos mentions it looks a bit like an R-73 but with half the number of fins... but about that size...
Hermes looks like the new Pantsir missiles... rather long two stage missile in a launch tube...
I wonder if this will effect the introduction of Hermes... is this instead of Hermes or as well as...
Hrizantema-V fired from Mi-28NM...unfortunately, they weren't allowed to film the launch properly only at night....apparently it can penetrate 1.2 m of armour
They had been talking about Khrisantema being the standard helicopter replacement for Ataka on the hind and havoc attack helos... shturm, ataka, and khrisantema all look very similar and I assumed it had happened a while ago, but that footage showed a rather large antenna hung under the opposite pylon to guide the missile... I assumed that would have been integrated into the mast mounted radar, but apparently not yet...
The nose thimble to guide the shturm and ataka is gone so I assume it can use the mast mounted radar to guide them perhaps or they are updated laser beam riding versions as used on the BMPT...
This is first time I see anyone blurring the missile, why would they do that?
What's there to hide? Engine?
Yes, they blur the whole missile, which is a bit odd.
the launch pylon also seemed a bit excessive for the single missile... perhaps it contains part of the datalink equipment the missile uses?
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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It can carry a wide variety of weapons including everything carried by the Su-25. Apart from the Hrizantema, the new version of the ATAKA-VM which they say (in the video) is laser guided and has improved accuracy...apparently it's accuracy is measured in cm. The Hrisantema is for high value targets while the Ataka is for "everyday" use.
It can also use a helicopter version of the Verba Manpad which can be used to engage cruise missiles among other aerial targets.
Interestingly, it will also be used for bombing, dropping various bombs ranging from 100 - 500kg.
It can also use a helicopter version of the Verba Manpad which can be used to engage cruise missiles among other aerial targets.
Interestingly, it will also be used for bombing, dropping various bombs ranging from 100 - 500kg.
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GarryB wrote:As Lsos mentions it looks a bit like an R-73 but with half the number of fins... but about that size...
the launch pylon also seemed a bit excessive for the single missile... perhaps it contains part of the datalink equipment the missile uses?
I'm betting it's a version of the Kh-25
On the video they say they're aiming for unification of armament between the Mi-28NM and the Su-25....the Su-25 carries the Kh-25
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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I don't speak Russian but got the feeling that when he was talking about the Verba he said something like the crew was able to look at a target to get a lock and engage cruise missiles and other targets that way...
There is much to be said for good enough... 800mm armour penetration is plenty for most battlefield targets today and for heavier targets the Krisantema can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour which is even better. (as can Vikhr).
By all means keep using Ataka... it is accurate and has a reasonable range and good flight speed (450m/s).
I hope not... the Kh-25 is a 300kg missile that would not be able to be carried four to a missile pylon.
It is in the process of being replaced by the multirole Kh-38 which is a rather big missile and not really suited to helicopter use either...
The original Kh-25s had a rear facing antenna for the oldest command guided models like the AS-7 Kerry version so they all have two side mounted thruster rockets, which is not really conducive to multiple ejector rack mounts... note the Krisantema has side angled thrusters because it has a backup laser beam riding guidance option but being tube launched the side thruster rockets don't fire till the missile is well clear of the tube and the helo...
There were TV and IR versions of the Kh-25 but AFAIK they never entered production... they were probably more expensive than the widely used AS-10 laser homing version... or the widely used anti radiation models.
There is much to be said for good enough... 800mm armour penetration is plenty for most battlefield targets today and for heavier targets the Krisantema can penetrate 1.2m of steel armour which is even better. (as can Vikhr).
By all means keep using Ataka... it is accurate and has a reasonable range and good flight speed (450m/s).
I'm betting it's a version of the Kh-25
I hope not... the Kh-25 is a 300kg missile that would not be able to be carried four to a missile pylon.
It is in the process of being replaced by the multirole Kh-38 which is a rather big missile and not really suited to helicopter use either...
The original Kh-25s had a rear facing antenna for the oldest command guided models like the AS-7 Kerry version so they all have two side mounted thruster rockets, which is not really conducive to multiple ejector rack mounts... note the Krisantema has side angled thrusters because it has a backup laser beam riding guidance option but being tube launched the side thruster rockets don't fire till the missile is well clear of the tube and the helo...
There were TV and IR versions of the Kh-25 but AFAIK they never entered production... they were probably more expensive than the widely used AS-10 laser homing version... or the widely used anti radiation models.
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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GarryB wrote:I don't speak Russian but got the feeling that when he was talking about the Verba he said something like the crew was able to look at a target to get a lock and engage cruise missiles and other targets that way...
Yes sounds like a helmet mounted sight
I hope not... the Kh-25 is a 300kg missile that would not be able to be carried four to a missile pylon.
I'm just going by the shape which seems to resemble a Kh-25. I guess we'll find out sooner or later
Diferences between N and NM version
medo- Posts : 4343
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PapaDragon wrote:
This is first time I see anyone blurring the missile, why would they do that?
What's there to hide? Engine?
This is totaly new missile and it is IR guided. Most probably it have new IIR homing head and this is secret for now.
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
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WTF would they be doing with a Kh-25?
How exactly would the Hermes be unsuited to armament on a helicopter?
Or did they just forget all about that missile project, and wasted money adapting an older and heavier missile family instead?
Anyway I don't think it really is the Kh-25. They wouldn't have so much secrecy over it in that case.
The number of tail and frontal fins doesn't seem to match either. On this one it seems to only be 2 of them. Whereas the Kh-25 boasts 4.
How exactly would the Hermes be unsuited to armament on a helicopter?
Or did they just forget all about that missile project, and wasted money adapting an older and heavier missile family instead?
Anyway I don't think it really is the Kh-25. They wouldn't have so much secrecy over it in that case.
The number of tail and frontal fins doesn't seem to match either. On this one it seems to only be 2 of them. Whereas the Kh-25 boasts 4.
medo- Posts : 4343
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flamming_python wrote:The number of tail and frontal fins doesn't seem to match either. On this one it seems to only be 2 of them. Whereas the Kh-25 boasts 4.
Missile have normal 4 fins in front and 4 fins in tail. Fogy Picture of missiles doesn't make it clear.
It is good, that Mi-28NM got new missiles. Krizantema is excellent with 10 km range, laser and radar guidance and 1250 mm+ ERA penetration capabilities. Izd. 305 missile will be more suitable for KA-52. I know, that both Ka-52 and Mi-28NM are equipped with data links for networking and exchange of informations. Limitation is radar. N025 radar in Mi-28NM have shorter range than FH-01 Arbalet in Ka-52. Arbalet have missile control modes, so it could easily guide Hermes missile in radar mode to its full range of 20 km. N025 radar in Mi-28NM could detect target at 20 km, so it could not use this missile in full potential, when not networked. On the other hand Ka-52 radar have enough range to use it in full potential.
Anyway, main armament for both Ka-52 and Mi-28NM will be Vikhr-M and Krizantema missiles as well as older Ataka. Those new big missiles with expensive homing heads will be used mostly against highly important targets, which are well protected. I wonder if this new Izd.305 missile will find its way in armament of Su-25SM3 and Orion UAV.
George1- Posts : 18523
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The Russian Aerospace Force received the first two Mi-28NM serial helicopters
As Andrei Boginsky, Director General of the Holding Company Helicopters of Russia JSC, reported on June 23, 2019 on the TV channel Zvezda, the Russian Aerospace Forces received the first two serial combat helicopters Mi-28NM (installation party).
Presumably, the first two serial Mi-28NM combat helicopters of the production batch produced by Rostvertol JSC (as part of Russian Helicopters JSC), were transferred to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (c) video from the TV channel Zvezda
According to Bohinsky, two Mi-28NM combat vehicles have already been transferred to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Soon the helicopters will be connected to the state tests. In 2020, the Russian Ministry of Defense will receive six more Mi-28NM helicopters.
From the side of bmpd, we recall that in April 2019, photographs appeared of the flight test started in Rostov-on-Don, presumably the first Mi-28NM combat installation helicopter built by Rostvertol for the Russian Ministry of Defense.
In December 2017, it was reported that the Ministry of Defense of Russia entered into a state contract with the holding company JSC Russian Helicopters (which includes Rostvertol JSC) for the production of an installation batch of new Mi-28NM helicopters. Under the terms of the contract, the first two cars were to be made before the end of 2018.
The prototype OP-1 (tail number "701 yellow") of the upgraded combat helicopter Mi-28NM ("Product 296", OCR "Avangard-3") was built on the "Rostvertol" in 2015. Tests of the OP-1 in the hover mode were started at the Moscow-based Moscow Helicopter Plant Mil ”(MVZ) on July 29, 2016, and full-fledged flight tests - October 12, 2016. In March 2019, the prototype OP-1 Mi-28NM helicopter was tested for combat use in Syria.
On March 7, 2019, during a visit to Rostvertol, Deputy Minister of Defense of Russia Alexei Krivoruchko stated that the Russian Defense Ministry intends to conclude a contract for the supply of production Mi-28NM helicopters and that "the volume of the first contract for Mi-28NM - 6 or 18 vehicles is being discussed ".
Then it was reported that under the State Armaments Program for 2018–2027, the Russian Ministry of Defense plans to purchase a total of 98 modernized Mi-28NM combat helicopters.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3684901.html
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https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1143176983565742080
Clearly not an atgm. The explosion is huge. It seems to have folding wings.
Clearly not an atgm. The explosion is huge. It seems to have folding wings.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1143176983565742080
Clearly not an atgm. The explosion is huge. It seems to have folding wings.
Those ATGMs have different warheads, not only HEAT. They could use here missile with thermobaric warhead.
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Signed contract for 100 MI-28NM
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20196271757-mIMw0.html
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20196271757-mIMw0.html
dino00- Posts : 1677
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PARK PATRIOT (Moscow region), June 27 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry until 2021 will receive 18 attack helicopters Mi-28NM "Night Hunter", the remaining 80 cars - until 2027
https://ria.ru/20190627/1555984944.html
https://ria.ru/20190627/1555984944.html
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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Interesting in one of the early unblurred images it seemed to only have two control surfaces front and two back, but the blurred images seem to have four front and four back with a layout and shape similar but not the same as the R-73.
If they can carry four per pylon and they clearly have some sort of IIR or optical guidance with the ability of the operator to choose targets or select targets in flight... well it seems like an interesting addition to the weapon options... especially if the Su-25 can carry them too...
Another tool in the tool box...
If they can carry four per pylon and they clearly have some sort of IIR or optical guidance with the ability of the operator to choose targets or select targets in flight... well it seems like an interesting addition to the weapon options... especially if the Su-25 can carry them too...
Another tool in the tool box...
George1- Posts : 18523
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So to have a clear view. The installation batch of 8x new Mi-28NM helicopters 92 of which delivered this month) is not included in this contract of 98 Mi-28NM. So in total we will have 106 Mi-28MN
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3692291.html
From the side of bmpd, we recall that in December 2017 it was reported that the Ministry of Defense of Russia entered into a state contract with the holding of JSC Helicopters of Russia for the production of an installation batch of new Mi-28NM helicopters. Supposedly, the installation batch includes eight Mi-28NM helicopters, the first two of which were handed over to the Ministry of Defense in June 2019, and another six should be commissioned in 2020.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3692291.html
George1- Posts : 18523
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The first serial helicopter Mi-28NM
Reportedly, the photograph of the first serially upgraded combat helicopter Mi-28NM of the installation batch, built for the Ministry of Defense of Russia at Rostvertol JSC (as part of JSC Russian Helicopters) in Rostov-on-Don. The helicopter has a tail number "70 red." The helicopter made the first flight, presumably in April 2019.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3698614.html
Reportedly, the photograph of the first serially upgraded combat helicopter Mi-28NM of the installation batch, built for the Ministry of Defense of Russia at Rostvertol JSC (as part of JSC Russian Helicopters) in Rostov-on-Don. The helicopter has a tail number "70 red." The helicopter made the first flight, presumably in April 2019.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3698614.html
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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The Mi-28NM has the capability to fire at 2 targets simultaneously
https://tass.com/defense/1073016
https://tass.com/defense/1073016
AMCXXL- Posts : 1018
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George1 wrote:The first "serial helicopter" Mi-28NM
And what does it mean ????
All aircraft, included prototypes and experimental aircraft, have:
-A factory number
-A serial number (it can be the same as the end of the factory number or it can be totally different)
-A frame number
Even the airframes for static test (non-flying airplanes) has a frame number
For example, the T-50 Nº501 , the first prototype, have a frame number T-50-1 and a serial number 00-01. The Factory number can end in 0001 or not.
Then , what means "first serial helicopter"
If this means this is not a experimental aircraft, exactly, it is not.
Experimental aircraft and factory prototypes usually have tree digits. in the case of Mi-28NM, the only experimental helicopter is Nº701
However , if this want to say this are helicoptes for the troops, no, are not.
In Russia, al the aircraft need to pass the State Flight Tests , to get a certification of the Ministry of Industry for can fly
In every aircraft project, after the experimental or factory prototypes, at least two aircraft must be made for the State Fligth Tests
In the case of airplanes , the aircraft are handed over to LII Gromov instutute (Zhukovsky) for the certification of the aircraft, this means that russian goverment agency must verify the aircrafts have the caractheristics the manofacturer says the aircraft has
The most probable, this two helicopters are for the State Test, this mean , are the two definitive prototyes for test or pre-serial, and the next year, the first batch for the troops will go to the Transbaikal regiment, probably with numbers starting by 01, 02, ….
George1 wrote:So to have a clear view. The installation batch of 8x new Mi-28NM helicopters 92 of which delivered this month) is not included in this contract of 98 Mi-28NM. So in total we will have 106 Mi-28MN
From the side of bmpd, we recall that in December 2017 it was reported that the Ministry of Defense of Russia entered into a state contract with the holding of JSC Helicopters of Russia for the production of an installation batch of new Mi-28NM helicopters. Supposedly, the installation batch includes eight Mi-28NM helicopters, the first two of which were handed over to the Ministry of Defense in June 2019, and another six should be commissioned in 2020.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3692291.html
And why would they want to manufacture 8 for an installation lot?
It does not have any logic to manufacture an experimental prototype and then 8 of "installation lot" to then let them rot and less in a modernized model that has less to prove than a model that starts from scratch
The only purpose of the "installation lot" is to certify the aircraft and start working with it. Then they are stored. Normally with 2 such aircraft are enough
Also bmpd contradicts its own previous posts
RuAf will receive 98 Mi-98NM signed in the supply contract
Just 96 for 6 regiments with 16 Mi-28 each and two for Torzhok.
In the better case, this two helicopters for test , could paint on yellow the tail numbers and go to Torzhok when end the State Tests,
Then will be 100 Mi-28NM, the same of the 100 Mi-28H that remain in service in other 6 regments/brigades and Torzhok
GarryB- Posts : 40551
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I suspect by Serial models I think they mean they think it is ready for service and combat the way it is now and that they don't foresee major upgrades or changes except bug fixes or improvements in the way it is made to make it cheaper or quicker to make.
Ie it has passed tests and has been cleared for production... it will most likely get several changes and upgrades through its operational life but for now it is ready for active service use.
Ie it has passed tests and has been cleared for production... it will most likely get several changes and upgrades through its operational life but for now it is ready for active service use.