Mi-28N Havoc: News

To be clear, the radar for the Khrisantema is just for guiding that specific missile and also for scanning and finding targets for it.

The mast mounted radar on the Mi-28NM was developed separately and is used to find targets in all weather conditions for the helicopter to locate and attack with other weapons including LMUR etc etc.

The Thimble nose was used for directing Shturm and Ataka command guided missiles to hit targets that were detected with other means, which has been replaced with a datalink array that presumably can still direct command guided missiles.

Previously the optics found the targets and the datalink array directed the missiles to the targets, but now there is optics and radar to find targets and a datalink to direct missiles or the optics directs laser beam riding missiles to the targets detected by optics or radar.

The Khrisantema radar system was developed for the ground based replacement of the Shturm and Ataka system which used optics and command guidance to find targets and then guide missiles to the targets.

The Shturm/Ataka system could engage targets to 5-6km and was not effected by night or most bad weather but being optics based to find targets it could not operate in snow storms or monsoon rain or brown outs (dust storms)... the command guidance worked but the optics for finding targets would not work in such extreme conditions.

Khrisantema works in snow and dust storms and monsoon rain conditions of zero visibility because it uses radar waves instead of laser beams or optics to find the targets and guide the missiles.

In its current set up with the radar pod and khrisantema missiles it can work in any conditions.

In good or not terrible weather conditions it can carry ATAKA and Vikha missiles day or night without needing the radar pod so 12 Vikhr and 16 Ataka missiles at once... which is in addition to 30mm cannon.

They can also carry 80mm and 122mm guided rockets when needed too.

Khrisantema missiles can be radar guided (needing the pod) or laser beam riding (not needing the pod) if you need the extra penetration and range.

LMUR can also be carried using radar, optics, and datalinks...

The radar in question is specific to that missile in the same way a datalink pod like the one used for the AS-11 anti radiation missile is needed to fire that missile, or the datalink pod used for the AS-13 and AS-18 land attack missiles needed specific pods to control those weapons.

Previously the thimble nose mounted antenna on the Mi-28 and also on the Mi-24/35 and Ka-29 and any other platform that carried and used Shturm and Ataka anti tank guided missiles... it sent command guidance signals to the missiles... it did not detect or track anything, it was just a datalink to control those missiles in flight.

The radar pod for the Khrisanthema is a radar and can scan and find targets, and it also directs Khrisanthema missiles to hit those targets... even in the middle of a snow storm or dust storm or monsoon rain where visibility might be 5 metres or worse.

The Khrisantema missile can be laser beam riding or directed by podded radar, so on a clear day or clear night or even a rainy day or night you can use optics to find targets and laser beams to guide the missiles... the only time you would need the radar pod is in conditions of zero visibility.

The mast mounted radar of the Mi-28NM is supposed to combine a MMW radar pointing forward and a 360 degree CM wave radar, where the MMW radar detects targets on the ground and in the air at a 90-120 degree forward angle at up to perhaps 30km, while the CM wave radar detects air targets out to rather significant distances (50-100km).

It might be that the Khrisanthema might be adapted to use the mast mounted radar for scanning and guiding the missile.

My understanding (which I admit is not complete) is that Khrisanthema is a radar beam riding guided missile... in other words it is not like a SARH missile where the target is marked with a pencil beam of radar waves and it homes in on the reflections... which is pretty much how a laser homing missile works too... there does not seem to be a nose mounted radar antenna that could detect and guide the missile to the target in such a case.
I think the radar guidance system directs a thin pencil radar beam at the target and the missile flys down that beam like a laser beam riding missile does, which means the missile in both cases is looking back at the launch platform and flys itself by manouvering itself into the centre of the beam... which makes them much better in many ways... first of all the powerful sensors and equipment tracking the target is on board the launcher and is reused and not destroyed with each shot like Javelin or Hellfire. It also makes it harder for the target to interfere in the guidance like a DIRCMS system would because the missile is looking at the beam and the beam does not reflect off anything so for a 10km range missile the laser or radar wave only travels at most 10km whereas with beams bouncing off the target would be effected by the surface of the target and would travel 20km for the missile at launch.

The Khrisantema seems to also have a laser beam riding mechanism build in to the design as do some Ataka missiles because laser beam riding systems are widely deployed in Russia and also offer a good accurate alternative to radio command... which is why the BMPT does not have a radio command antenna to control the missiles too.

That means those Ataka missiles likely use radio command receivers and laser beam receivers combined in their rear facing surface so they can be used by other guidance method, which is likely what Khrisanthema does too...

The radar pod of the Khrisanthema missile scans for and detects targets, but is also tracks the outgoing missile... I don't know whether it sends radio commands for guidance or if it directs a pencil beam of radar energy at the target... in other words I don't know if the radar commands the manouvers of the missile or if the missile uses the radar or laser beam (when in laser beam riding mode) to work out its own position in relation to the target and manouvers itself... I would expect it to be able to work its own manouvers out with the laser beam riding guidance so it probably does the same with radar guidance.

If that is the case I wonder how much modification would be needed to the mast mounted radar for it to direct pencil radar beams at targets to direct Khrisanthema missiles too... the optics package should already allow Khrisanthema missiles to be fired in laser beam mode, but obviously in a dirty environment with lots of smoke and heavy rain or really bad weather the radar would make it more all weather capable.

So to recap, the AS-11 is an anti radiation missile that needs lots of information about the target before launch because if the target switches off it still can hit the target... the datalink pod allows the launched missile to communicate with the launch aircraft and collect data on the target before launch that aircraft don't normally need to carry.
Equally the AS-13 and AS-18 are both TV guided missiles that fly to the target area and allow the launch aircraft to view the target area via a direct video datalink with the missile that allows the weapon officer in the launch aircraft to move a cursor to select a specific target within the field of view for the missile to target... this is not used by other missiles so does not need to be standard equipment on all aircraft so it is bundled in a pod.

The radar pod we are talking about is used for the Khrisanthema only in the worst conditions of zero visibility and can be used to engage targets that will never see what hit them. In better visibility the pod is not needed and the missile can be guided via laser beam riding like the Vikhr missiles and Ataka missiles... the Khrisanthema offering better penetration over both of those weapons.

Edit: Having to carry a radar pod is a bit clumsy, but the radar and missile were developed together, and while it does use up a weapon pylon when used it also offers an all weather scanning MMW radar for the carrying platform... and because it has its own radar for detection and guidance of the missile this means any platform with two pylons could carry the radar pod and some missiles to deploy the weapon capable of operation above clouds in all weather day and night... including monsoon rain, snow storm, or dust storm where visibility for optical systems can be measured as being less than 2 metres.

For a drone that makes it rather useful because in a snow storm there is little chance a MANPADS could get you and the effective range of the radar should allow good range engagements for 4-5km altitude...

When it is not snowing or raining or heavily cloudy just carry two pylons worth of missiles and use laser beam riding instead of the radar beam riding the pod allows.

The Russians had several experiments done on guidance handover using laser and radio riding missiles and they were mostly successful. Its probably not a stretch to assume this Khrizanthema pod could not only provide guidance to the parent vehicle but to the wingmen as well so the loss of a pylon to a pod is not that big of a deal.

GarryB wrote:
The radar pod we are talking about is used for the Khrisanthema only in the worst conditions of zero visibility and can be used to engage targets that will never see what hit them. In better visibility the pod is not needed and the missile can be guided via laser beam riding like the Vikhr missiles and Ataka missiles... the Khrisanthema offering better penetration over both of those weapons.

More importantly radar pierces through thermal opaque smoke screens like its not even there. Very important since most tanks nowadays carry multispectral smoke dischargers - mostly manually drawn, which limits their effectiveness to the what can be provided by human attentivity and reaction times. But they're there, and readily improvable: dedicated softkill systems with their own sensors and control loops are actually rather affordable (see T-90s rocking Shtora-1 suites as standard), at least compared to their hardkill counterparts, the contrast explained mostly by the level of precision for each task.

I suspect over time the pod will get smaller and lighter and more capable, which would be important for other platforms, but equally combined radar and IIR systems for drones and helicopters and aircraft could be improved to use these missiles effectively too... such a modification could make a few other weapon type fully all weather capable making them rather more potent too.

Ground based radar combined with an optics system allowing troops or vehicles or platforms to detect targets based on their movement through screens of smoke or dust so when the target becomes visible you are already pointing your primary weapons at it ready to fire if needed...

Even something like a short range anti missile missile could use such guidance for situations when IIR is not so good.

Spyder missiles had problems in SE Asia because the human body temperature is about 38 degrees C but when the ambient temperature is 35-40 then human targets don't stand out very well, and at certain humidity levels and temperatures IIR sensors have problems too.

Equally for fog and mist an IIR might have issues so backup radar command guidance offers a cheap simple alternative if the situation makes that necessary and also models of the missile without IIR sensors to reduce cost could allow the missiles to be made and used in enormous numbers very cost effectively too.

Atmosphere wrote:
Interesting to note, the T-14 adresses the issue by carrying MMW (and possibly other bands) radar screening that is launched along with the opaque IR blocker screen.

Probably the reason why the T-14 has the deepest magazine for countermeasures. Not only is the tank absurdly hard to crack open, but to land a hit in the first place - is a tall order. An enemy tank would have to "eyeball" his first shot - no lasers so as to not trigger the smoke curtains, which severely reduces the accuracy. If he doesn't score a golden BB the tank would put up the smoke screen and since the APS has tracked the incoming shot the defending tank has the advantage of a loaded weapon and the precise location of his opponent - a total inversion of ambush dynamics. Ditto for ATGMs and anti-tank helicopters only that theirs is a lot easier engagement, since ATGMs are so much slower compared to hitscan-esque APFSDS.

Hole wrote:Add to this the "networking" capabilities. Instead of the tank firing back the target gets hit by a guided artillery shell, directed by the tank.

Exactly. The T-14 is not just an MBT, but a hardened spotter for the reconnaissance fire complex. Even better, since the kind of opposition that would make a T-14 unit stop in its tracks is the juicy sort of target for artillery.

Atmosphere wrote:
A german tanker once did infact talk about how the laser warning systems on the T-90A were considered a serious problem by the german forces because you wouldn't be able to aim at it without having it know exactly that you're doing so, from which direction, and to instantly swivel the turret.
T-14 meanwhile is as you said, very hard to hit, even for airplanes and choppers, with signature managment up, reliably aiming at it would require getting dangerously close to air defense bubbles, or inside.

Actually getting closer is suicide. Closing in would expose the expensive launch platform to exponentially more threats - you would not only have to worry about SAMs, AAAs but even AFV weapons. That only leaves you to go up the sophistication ladder - go for hypersonic, stealthy or loitering munitions. And go bankrupt

TMA1 wrote:I know this isnt the right thread and please indulge me mods but I've been dying to get an answer to this question. I always thought with laser detectors and automatic smoke screen in fierce battle couldn't the tank essentially be frequently ejecting smoke and losing situational awareness?

The APS automatically slews the turret to the exact bearing of the threat. When the tank clears the smoke screen the gunner would be in position to quickly engage his target.

Isos wrote:
Smoke take quite some time to disipate.

Israel APS is very good because it does that and instead of smoke it destroys the atgm and the gunner can fire immediatle at the launcher.

You can drive through or around smokescreens, make your shot, then back into concealment. There's nothing to it.

And Trophy is good, but even the best hard kill APS has a dead time of a few seconds. Enough time for a second missile to connect in closely spaced salvo like those fired by a Khrizanthema or Kornet-D. Even for multiple ATGM teams with radios (or wristwatches) could do it.

Another factor is the laser itself... there are many different types and different purposes and the systems on tanks will have some sophistication to them too.

A laser that is used to direct a weapon like Copperhead or Hellfire needs to be powerful enough for those weapons to detect at great distances, so they are easy to detect and their power, because the incoming round needs to be able to detect the reflected laser energy no matter what surface the target, so you know incoming weapons are imminent and smoke launch needs to be now and action taken by the crew.

A much less powerful pulse like a laser rangefinder still has to be relatively strong because it has to reach to the target and be reflected back with enough intensity for the receiver to see it clearly, but it might only be a short pulse to determine range.

Determining range is different, which generally means you need to move and find cover, but you might want to be looking before popping smoke and disappearing.

The point is that for the west there is another threat... laser beam riding missiles... because the missiles look back into the beam the beam strength can be tiny, so at the target the beam strength might be less than the splash reflection of a laser ranging something next to your tank... perhaps even your own laser range finder splash energy.

To set your laser warning system to be sensitive to laser beam riding weapons means you will never be able to stay anywhere and will constantly be popping smoke.

A laser device could be brought into the area where enemy armour is located and just scan a laser beam across the entire landscape with passive optics watching for smoke popping to locate where the targets were... and then move... keep doing that all night and they turn their systems off.

The laser device could be on the ground or 10km up in the air.

The laser target marker on the MiG-35 has a range of 30km... so it could cover a lot of territory making vehicles pop smoke and reveal their locations which could then be mapped.

Of course the new Russian systems include thermal optics and radar to detect incoming rounds, so they should be able to detect the sources in real time, but laser noise is going to be a problem.

A few days on the battlefield of the laser warning systems constantly going off every time someone on either side ranges something will quickly result in them being turned off. It will only be very sophisticated AI assisted models that will work out what is worth reporting and what should be ignored.

It is an ongoing competition and Russia has horses in all the races... they have laser dazzlers and laser beam riding weapons and radar warning systems and sophisticated defence systems...

GarryB wrote:
The point is that for the west there is another threat... laser beam riding missiles... because the missiles look back into the beam the beam strength can be tiny, so at the target the beam strength might be less than the splash reflection of a laser ranging something next to your tank... perhaps even your own laser range finder splash energy.

Most LWR should have little problems detecting the laser on beam riding missiles actually. Its not really a matter of sensitivity - even disposable detectors (such as the one of the back of the missile) can detect such fine signals just fine. What really makes such missiles "stealthy" is that guidance system actually makes it a point to only converge the beam at the very last second. Otherwise the missile is actually flying to somewhere above the tank for the majority of the flight.

GarryB wrote:
To set your laser warning system to be sensitive to laser beam riding weapons means you will never be able to stay anywhere and will constantly be popping smoke.

A laser device could be brought into the area where enemy armour is located and just scan a laser beam across the entire landscape with passive optics watching for smoke popping to locate where the targets were... and then move... keep doing that all night and they turn their systems off.

Or the laser dies. For every 2 shooters you are engaging there should be 1 at the back doing overwatch.

Most LWR should have little problems detecting the laser on beam riding missiles actually. Its not really a matter of sensitivity - even disposable detectors (such as the one of the back of the missile) can detect such fine signals just fine.

It is a bit like stealth aircraft... in the 1980s when there were not many stealth aircraft around if you detected a bee sized radar reflection generally your screening programme would eliminate it from the dataset as noise because it might actually be a bee and therefore of no interest.

In 2022 however if your radar detects a tennis ball sized object moving at 600km per hour weaving through a mountain range that wont be rejected as noise and will be processed and displayed... there might be 50 other tennis ball sized objects in that area but they might be much closer to the ground and flying in a ballistic path from the guns that fire them to the place where they impact the ground... a fighter aircrafts radar would dismiss those as noise because the fighter is not interested in that and when you can see a width of 100km and 100km deep you are not interesting in things that are probably not aircraft or weapons that threaten you.
An artillery radar on the ground will only see 20-30km at most and will be very interested in those tennis balls.

The point I am getting across is that if there was no filtering they would be tracking all sorts of shit you have no interest in and as it beeps its crazy song warning you about this or that or the other which might include the laser splash of your own laser rangefinder then after a day or two you start getting teh situation where the damn things are declared fucking useless and turned off or the sensitivity is turned down so while of course it will detect that laser energy, it will not warn the crew about it because if it did it would be constantly beeping and they would turn it off.

Another factor is that laser beam riding missile beams are not pencil thin streams of laser light... they are enormous... instead of a 1 or 2 degree beam angle the beam angle can be 20 degrees which means most of the enemy vehicles will likely detect the beam... but which one is the missile going for?

When they all pop smoke and withdraw the missile might miss, but that whole unit just fired off some of their smoke and have revealed the formation they had adopted.

A Shturm/Ataka unit could then fire a missile... no laser, just radio command guidance ...or LMUR or even Pine against light armour... or the drone or optically guided tank gun launched missile might come diving down on the tank as it reverses back through its smoke screen and relocates to a different place to hide.

It is going to be a very complex and stressful game.

What really makes such missiles "stealthy" is that guidance system actually makes it a point to only converge the beam at the very last second. Otherwise the missile is actually flying to somewhere above the tank for the majority of the flight.

It was my understanding that this was a feature of the guidance system to aim 6m high until the missile got to within 1km of the target where the guidance beams were lowered onto the target so the missile would drop down onto point of aim and continue to the target.... at 300-400m/s that means 2-4 seconds on target... but the beams are quite broad AFAIK so that the missile can be well off course and still regathered back to a target that might be moving for instance.

Or the laser dies. For every 2 shooters you are engaging there should be 1 at the back doing overwatch.

Drones and even ground based systems using Lidar, not to mention all their laser range finders and your laser range finders as well as target markers from both sides.... it is going to be a very busy environment.

Just like camera flashes were used to defeat first and second gen II scopes... laser dazzlers will likely be common... they could be quite small and made blast resistant...

Some of the laser sources will be highly mobile... like Mi-28s for instance and might cause you to pop smoke and reverse into the main line of the actual attack which could be from the opposite direction of the Mi-28s sent to soften you up first.

Back to MMW radar pods, when the Khrisantema was developed, it was to replace the Shturm and Ataka missiles used on the ground based Shturm-S which is an MTLB based vehicle launch platform that replaced the old BRDM-2 based ATGM platforms.

The radar system developed specifically for the missile to allow it to operate through any smoke or monsoon rain or snow or dust storm or fog was not intended for aircraft... which were not intended obviously to fly in such conditions.

With their new IIR and radar equipment however they now can, but they obviously wont do it all the time, so they clearly decided to use a pod rather than fully integrate the system into the aircrafts actual radar system. This means they can use them when they need to, but most of the time they can just use the missiles with laser beam guidance instead.

Moving forward I would hope they plan to upgrade their onboard radar system which presumably can be used to detect targets in zero visibility situations too and the pod is just to guide the missile and track the target and that it was just easier to use a pod for that than seriously modify the missile and the onboard systems.

I would expect over time the mast mounted radar could be upgraded to guide the missile in zero visibility too but as they don't have any other MMW radar guided weapons, it probably wasn't a requirement... the radar was a mechanism that they can use whereby they can pop up from behind cover and scan the ground in front of them very very quickly... within one to two seconds and then pop down behind cover and perhaps even move laterally while the information from the scan is processed and analysed and converted into targets and prioritised.... that information can then be shared with the rest of the unit and nearby units and decisions can be made about what needs to be attack and what first... it would then pop up from a different position and launch a missile... with no radar scan to reveal its presence it should be able to launch missiles relatively safely assuming the standoff range is sufficient.

GarryB wrote:
The point I am getting across is that if there was no filtering they would be tracking all sorts of shit you have no interest in and as it beeps its crazy song warning you about this or that or the other which might include the laser splash of your own laser rangefinder then after a day or two you start getting teh situation where the damn things are declared fucking useless and turned off or the sensitivity is turned down so while of course it will detect that laser energy, it will not warn the crew about it because if it did it would be constantly beeping and they would turn it off.

The situation you described has already happened - years before in the testing grounds. Part of the reason why modern stuff takes too long to enter service is the increasing proliferation of sensors and networking gear that has to slot in nicely with all other equipment sharing the same EM spectrum.

GarryB wrote:
Another factor is that laser beam riding missile beams are not pencil thin streams of laser light... they are enormous... instead of a 1 or 2 degree beam angle the beam angle can be 20 degrees which means most of the enemy vehicles will likely detect the beam... but which one is the missile going for?

The beam divergence of laser target designators are typically in the nought point parts milliradians. An enormous beam would be wasting laser energy all over the place - which is not great from the POV of a portable system with minimal power requirements.

GarryB wrote:
When they all pop smoke and withdraw the missile might miss, but that whole unit just fired off some of their smoke and have revealed the formation they had adopted.

Losing a complement of smokescreen is far better than losing a complement of tanks. Establishing an ambush situation where your guys let off the first shot is no trivial feat. Lots of work would have to be done identifying likely routes of advance, making sure they follow that route, and of course preparing defensive positions, etc. All to lose that initiative with a couple of well-placed smokescreens.

GarryB wrote:
I would expect over time the mast mounted radar could be upgraded to guide the missile in zero visibility too but as they don't have any other MMW radar guided weapons, it probably wasn't a requirement... the radar was a mechanism that they can use whereby they can pop up from behind cover and scan the ground in front of them very very quickly... within one to two seconds and then pop down behind cover and perhaps even move laterally while the information from the scan is processed and analysed and converted into targets and prioritised.... that information can then be shared with the rest of the unit and nearby units and decisions can be made about what needs to be attack and what first... it would then pop up from a different position and launch a missile... with no radar scan to reveal its presence it should be able to launch missiles relatively safely assuming the standoff range is sufficient.

The Russians are still understandably reticent over expensive weapons with active sensors onboard. A neat alternative could be to use the Orlan-10 model: offload the sensors to a cheaper (and easily replaceable) platform that could still be reused. The Russian version of Javelin could easily be the Gran guided mortars guided by an Orlan-10 with a laser target designator. For the price of a single Jav missile you retain mass effect and precision