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The middle section of Gren can be used as parking area for vehicles. The crane is there to unload boats (into the water) or vehicles onto the shore.
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70 posters
Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class
Hole- Posts : 11116
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Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
JohninMK- Posts : 15620
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Location : England
Or containers, inc those loaded with missiles etc.Hole wrote:The middle section of Gren can be used as parking area for vehicles.
GarryB- Posts : 40522
Points : 41022
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
So the rear area could be just as easily used for that, but more importantly would allow more than one helo to takeoff and or land at one time greatly increasing the tempo of landing stores of forces or equipment using helos.
The interesting thing is that they clearly have done away with the big heavy crane, so that suggests a change in strategy for landings... perhaps more helicopter mobile, or this is what they were thinking about regarding the combination of helicopter with APC/IFV...
Certainly delivering troops to high ground positions would be risky by helo but would allow them to rapidly dominate the landing area, and with armour landing at the same time you will have plenty of accurate direct fire support too...
Without the crane they have obviously abandoned container based missile systems, which IMHO makes sense... they might be OK for temporary use or surprise use but in this new design without a crane to dump an empty container it would completely eliminate the helicopter capacity for the ship which is too much in terms of compromise.
The interesting thing is that they clearly have done away with the big heavy crane, so that suggests a change in strategy for landings... perhaps more helicopter mobile, or this is what they were thinking about regarding the combination of helicopter with APC/IFV...
Certainly delivering troops to high ground positions would be risky by helo but would allow them to rapidly dominate the landing area, and with armour landing at the same time you will have plenty of accurate direct fire support too...
Without the crane they have obviously abandoned container based missile systems, which IMHO makes sense... they might be OK for temporary use or surprise use but in this new design without a crane to dump an empty container it would completely eliminate the helicopter capacity for the ship which is too much in terms of compromise.
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
The crane is still there, Charly015 missed it, I believe its depicted stored across the ship rather than longitudinally in IG.
Edit: here's a bigger but also more blurry version
Edit: here's a bigger but also more blurry version
Last edited by hoom on Thu May 09, 2019 2:15 am; edited 1 time in total
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
Points : 13511
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
hoom wrote:The crane is still there, Charly015 missed it, I believe its depicted stored across the ship rather than longitudinally in IG.
[img]http://bastion-karpenko.ru/VVT/11711_190424_01.jpg
More likely they used different more compact crane
GarryB- Posts : 40522
Points : 41022
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Storing it across the deck would block normal access to the superstructure for helicopters and to anything moved from inside the superstructure to the deck to load or unload from the helos... unless the crane is turned around and hangs out over the water during helo operations... it all seems a bit odd.
Gazputin- Posts : 354
Points : 354
Join date : 2019-04-07
I reckon there is a crane on each side …. of the centre hull
and the hull is wider and a door in between the 2 cranes
and I reckon the helicopter hangar is accessed by 20386 corvette type lift …. leaving the middle of the ships deck free for containers etc
and access to the superstructure …. perhaps for extra choppers ie 2 chopper storage options
that's what I'd do ….. the superstructure is probably mostly for humans … I don't see it being used for major stores
time will tell …. this ship reminds me a lot of the direction the 20386 is going in ….
multi-function and flexible .... is where everything is going
and the hull is wider and a door in between the 2 cranes
and I reckon the helicopter hangar is accessed by 20386 corvette type lift …. leaving the middle of the ships deck free for containers etc
and access to the superstructure …. perhaps for extra choppers ie 2 chopper storage options
that's what I'd do ….. the superstructure is probably mostly for humans … I don't see it being used for major stores
time will tell …. this ship reminds me a lot of the direction the 20386 is going in ….
multi-function and flexible .... is where everything is going
Gazputin- Posts : 354
Points : 354
Join date : 2019-04-07
there was a strange article about getting speznats on the new Gren
anyway it said that the ship can fit 2x Ka-30s or 1x Ka-52 …
it was a weird translation ….. most of it was going on about special forces operations … and the various boats they use and how they could be launched from the boat without resorting to using the crane
anyway it said that the ship can fit 2x Ka-30s or 1x Ka-52 …
it was a weird translation ….. most of it was going on about special forces operations … and the various boats they use and how they could be launched from the boat without resorting to using the crane
Isos- Posts : 11599
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Join date : 2015-11-06
Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
2h
Thread: A VMF source tells Izvestia that the 2 new Project 11711 amphib ships, the Vasily Trushin and Vladimir Andreev, which were laid down in April, will both join the Pacific Fleet. The Ivan Gren and Pyotr Morgunov will both serve in the Northern Fleet
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
Points : 13511
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Isos wrote:Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
2h
Thread: A VMF source tells Izvestia that the 2 new Project 11711 amphib ships, the Vasily Trushin and Vladimir Andreev, which were laid down in April, will both join the Pacific Fleet. The Ivan Gren and Pyotr Morgunov will both serve in the Northern Fleet
It was expected, namesakes of those ships served in Pacific
First two are built to older design but it won't matter much up in the Arctic because their main job wil be delivering vehicles and supplies to unprepared beaches which is default environment up there
All in all nice save with this project, went from dead end to being multiple problem solver
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
Points : 13511
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25022/Two_New_Russian_Ivan_Gren_class_Warships_Likely_To_Be_Helicopter_Carriers#.XRNdTMnOc0M
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3880
Points : 3858
Join date : 2016-04-08
PapaDragon wrote:
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25022/Two_New_Russian_Ivan_Gren_class_Warships_Likely_To_Be_Helicopter_Carriers#.XRNdTMnOc0M
Why even bother with this....Just make the Helio carriers you already planned to.
They need new landing ships keep making these has landing ships.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2652
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Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
they just mean that they will be able to carry a few helicopters (4 to 6 max) to support landing operations. They are calling them like that for marketing reasons. In reality they will be a similar concept to the italian San Giorgio class.SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25022/Two_New_Russian_Ivan_Gren_class_Warships_Likely_To_Be_Helicopter_Carriers#.XRNdTMnOc0M
Why even bother with this....Just make the Helio carriers you already planned to.
They need new landing ships keep making these has landing ships.
The real helicopter carriers (or better, let's call them amphibious assault ships)will be built later and with a much bigger displacement.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3880
Points : 3858
Join date : 2016-04-08
Rodion_Romanovic wrote:they just mean that they will be able to carry a few helicopters (4 to 6 max) to support landing operations. They are calling them like that for marketing reasons. In reality they will be a similar concept to the italian San Giorgio class.SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25022/Two_New_Russian_Ivan_Gren_class_Warships_Likely_To_Be_Helicopter_Carriers#.XRNdTMnOc0M
Why even bother with this....Just make the Helio carriers you already planned to.
They need new landing ships keep making these has landing ships.
The real helicopter carriers (or better, let's call them amphibious assault ships)will be built later and with a much bigger displacement.
San Giorgro's are a waste of money and if it's just 4-6 Choppers so will these things be a waste of money.
GarryB- Posts : 40522
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Choppers are useful...
Having half a dozen helicopters plus 10 MBTs or 30-35 IFVs would make them useful... not for the invasion of europe, but for other things...
Having several ships would be more useful than just relying on one really big ship...
And from what I have read they will start making Mistral replacements pretty soon anyway... which these vessels will compliment.
Having half a dozen helicopters plus 10 MBTs or 30-35 IFVs would make them useful... not for the invasion of europe, but for other things...
Having several ships would be more useful than just relying on one really big ship...
And from what I have read they will start making Mistral replacements pretty soon anyway... which these vessels will compliment.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2652
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Join date : 2015-12-30
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anyway, they are also refurbishing the old polish build ropucha class (project 775), they have about 15 of them in Russian Navy.GarryB wrote:Choppers are useful...
Having half a dozen helicopters plus 10 MBTs or 30-35 IFVs would make them useful... not for the invasion of europe, but for other things...
Having several ships would be more useful than just relying on one really big ship...
And from what I have read they will start making Mistral replacements pretty soon anyway... which these vessels will compliment.
Maybe with Ivan Gren getting an upgrade and enlargement, they will also design and build another smaller ship (between 2000 and 4000 tons of displacement) to complement the 8000 tons 11711M and the 20000+ tons amphibious assault ships
flamming_python- Posts : 9523
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SeigSoloyvov wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:they just mean that they will be able to carry a few helicopters (4 to 6 max) to support landing operations. They are calling them like that for marketing reasons. In reality they will be a similar concept to the italian San Giorgio class.SeigSoloyvov wrote:PapaDragon wrote:
Two New Russian Ivan Gren-class Warships Likely To Be Helicopter Carriers
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25022/Two_New_Russian_Ivan_Gren_class_Warships_Likely_To_Be_Helicopter_Carriers#.XRNdTMnOc0M
Why even bother with this....Just make the Helio carriers you already planned to.
They need new landing ships keep making these has landing ships.
The real helicopter carriers (or better, let's call them amphibious assault ships)will be built later and with a much bigger displacement.
San Giorgro's are a waste of money and if it's just 4-6 Choppers so will these things be a waste of money.
Hardly a waste of money.
Maybe 3 Ka-29s on board, a couple of Ka-52Ks and a Ka-27.
The Ka-27 will be used for S&R and utility duties (a must for any medium or large sized vessel)
The Ka-29s can be used in co-ordination with the amphibious assault to deploy several marine squads to take heights and various enemy positions, as well as provide fire-support for the operation. They are equipped with machine-guns and can carry unguided rocket pods and Sturm missiles, with accuracy exceeding that of the Mi-24.
And the Ka-52Ks can be used for precision fire-support to the operation, as well as taking out defences in advance of the landing, and in a pinch they can be armed with something like the Kh-35 too if there's some sort of small naval threat to the taskforce.
A small helicopter force is a very strong force-multiplier for a landing ship.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3880
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Join date : 2016-04-08
No worthless, everything you spoke of is why Helio Carriers exist, they have choppers to assist the forces they are deploying.
Unless you are trying to run some budget ass navy, wasting money and crews on ships that will carry what four-six choppers and that only are a waste of resources and manpower.
Choppers are nice yes but that idea is terrible.
Unless you are trying to run some budget ass navy, wasting money and crews on ships that will carry what four-six choppers and that only are a waste of resources and manpower.
Choppers are nice yes but that idea is terrible.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
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Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
You guys do realize that this Gren v2.0 is Rotterdam-style ship with same intended use?
They called it helicopter carrier because it will have more than 2 helicopters onboard but it's still supposed to haul vehicles to shore.
Yes they could alter top structure even more in later versions to get flattop but it will still be holding armored vehicles below deck and dropping them on shore.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
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Join date : 2015-04-26
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http://www.shipyard-yantar.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/10_2017.pdf
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Join date : 2016-05-06
So its still pretty narrow.
Crane is longitudinal, maybe smaller?
Track down the middle to the hangar.
Crane is longitudinal, maybe smaller?
Track down the middle to the hangar.
Isos- Posts : 11599
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Join date : 2015-11-06
What is the M area btw the two helipad ? It look like a huge helipad, maybe for VTOL.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13471
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Join date : 2015-04-26
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Isos wrote:What is the M area btw the two helipad ? It look like a huge helipad, maybe for VTOL.
China and Russia are developing new heavy helicopter and Chinese will definitely want it to be navalized
Maybe they are planning ahead with this?
Also, what is the rectangular part between pads and hangar?
Isos- Posts : 11599
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Join date : 2015-11-06
Also, what is the rectangular part between pads and hangar?
Ast the crabe is near that thing, I guess it's an entrance for putting things inside the ships with the crane.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Join date : 2016-05-06
Oh I was thinking a track thing for moving choppers between hangar & flightpad but could indeed be a vehicle ramp, IG has pretty weird ramp up to the middle from both ends.