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These multi-role craft actually will save $ as they can do jobs of MPA/ISR/ASW/S&R aircraft, missile/patrol/transport ships, while hard to detect & destroy. They may carry UUVs/UAVs as well. And they can move between fleets faster by flying over land w/o the need of going via the other seas. In the North & over icy lakes & rivers, they won't need icebreakers.
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29 posters
Development of Ekranoplans
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
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Gibraltar- Posts : 39
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GunshipDemocracy wrote:Gibraltar wrote:Very fashinating items but last kind of things to spend big money in a moment of navy extreme needs for modern units in basic roles.
depending what are extreme needs now? small ASW corvettes? missile ships?
Carriers, cruisers, destroiers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypotesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for mediterranean theatre. And at least 7-8 active modern destroyers. Gorshkov class is an almost already outdated design with only 1 unit in active service. I think they need to complete first their surface fleet and only then dedicate themselfs in exotics crafts
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
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All those ships take more $ & time to build, maintain & operate than ekranoplans; they don't absolutely need a CBG in the Med. Sea now nor elsewhere in the foreseeable future. For that, their economy must be on a par with Japan's, with global interests to defend.Carriers, cruisers, destroyers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypothesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for Mediterranean theater.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6168
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Gibraltar wrote:GunshipDemocracy wrote:Gibraltar wrote:Very fashinating items but last kind of things to spend big money in a moment of navy extreme needs for modern units in basic roles.
depending what are extreme needs now? small ASW corvettes? missile ships?
Carriers, cruisers, destroiers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypotesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for mediterranean theatre. And at least 7-8 active modern destroyers. Gorshkov class is an almost already outdated design with only 1 unit in active service. I think they need to complete first their surface fleet and only then dedicate themselfs in exotics crafts
well why would you need carriers when you cannot keep your backyard safe? First of all why dilemma erkanoplanes or ships. Russia needs effective means to detect/destroy subs. US SSBNs are the main navel thereat for Russia not CSGs. Erkanoplanes can (but not only them f course) be a good platform to ASW and SAR operations over Pacific/Arctic seas.
Cheap in maintenance, faster than helicopters, range like long range aircraft. Why Mediterranean needs CSG? for Syria like wars you dont need anything top. To fight with NATO there? regardless what you gonna send youre dead. If you look for naval confrontation.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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The fundamental problem with Ekranoplans is that they operate most efficiently at very low altitudes... which limits their top speed, and their fuel efficiency when using jet engines.
Very simply for most jet powered aircraft operating at medium to high altitudes means operating in cold thin air where jet engines are much more efficient and the drag is lower so higher speeds are easier to achieve. Also there are no storms at 15 thousand metres while flying at 15 metres there are plenty of storms and indeed freak waves that could spell disaster.
For any subsonic mission like transport or carrying enormous loads it makes sense, but much of the time a more conventional aircraft design would probably make rather more sense.
Regarding an MPA design where the aircraft could actually land on the water surface and drop dipping sonar to find enemy vessels that would be a serious money saver because disposable Bouys are expensive because they need a reasonable level of sensitivity... whereas a reusable dipping sonar can be super expensive because it will be reused multiple times...
Very simply for most jet powered aircraft operating at medium to high altitudes means operating in cold thin air where jet engines are much more efficient and the drag is lower so higher speeds are easier to achieve. Also there are no storms at 15 thousand metres while flying at 15 metres there are plenty of storms and indeed freak waves that could spell disaster.
For any subsonic mission like transport or carrying enormous loads it makes sense, but much of the time a more conventional aircraft design would probably make rather more sense.
Regarding an MPA design where the aircraft could actually land on the water surface and drop dipping sonar to find enemy vessels that would be a serious money saver because disposable Bouys are expensive because they need a reasonable level of sensitivity... whereas a reusable dipping sonar can be super expensive because it will be reused multiple times...
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6168
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One is sure, there are programs to build ekranoplanes. How they will be used this is another question. SAR/ASW would be most interesting potential applications:
- enormous range/fuel efficiency more than any aircraft of its size
- decent speed - much higher than any existing helo - 500-750 km/h
- can land on water (at least Russian ones could;-)
SAR to getquick to sinking ship and pick up crew is clear, ASW - torpedos can do nothing against it (not sure about sub-harpoons for something flying with speed 700km/h ;-) ,can have anything torpedos, bombs, buoys...search equipment .
Attack version? this depends on what navy needs. Imagine with 8 ZIrcons and can get to position 600km away form shore base in 1 hr or less. 22800 needs for thsi 10-12 hours with max speed.
- enormous range/fuel efficiency more than any aircraft of its size
- decent speed - much higher than any existing helo - 500-750 km/h
- can land on water (at least Russian ones could;-)
SAR to getquick to sinking ship and pick up crew is clear, ASW - torpedos can do nothing against it (not sure about sub-harpoons for something flying with speed 700km/h ;-) ,can have anything torpedos, bombs, buoys...search equipment .
Attack version? this depends on what navy needs. Imagine with 8 ZIrcons and can get to position 600km away form shore base in 1 hr or less. 22800 needs for thsi 10-12 hours with max speed.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
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It can also lay mines, destroy mines, drop/pick up SF & patrol/enforce EEZs. In the Antarctic, it can fly over its icy coast & glaciers faster with more cargo than planes between stations.
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Cyberspec wrote:The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on
Correction Cyberspec...they were talking about a max payload of 800 tons not max take off weight.
The new max payload is now 1,000 tons, and the max take off weight is 2,500 tons. 
At the same time, the company did not specify which project was in question. Previously, she led the development of the Be-2500 superheavy seaplane with a planned maximum payload of up to 1000 tons, a maximum take-off weight of 2500 tons, a wingspan of 125.5 m, a length of 115.5 m, a maximum speed of 800 km and a predicted flight range of 16,000 km.
https://topwar.ru/163186-vodnyj-monstr-al-masdar-ocenilo-novuju-amfibiju-berieva.html
kvs- Posts : 15857
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The concept is cool, but I have questions about its practicality. One of the reasons from flying high is to avoid the planetary boundary
layer (PBL) turbulence and the convective turbulence. Unless the ekranoplan is massive like a large cruise ship, it will be bounced around
quite a bit to the point that under conditions it can crash. I am assuming they are going to fly over land and not just water, this implies
all sorts of thermal plumes that are not there over water. (The PBL is thinner over water bodies than over land).
High altitude (above tropopause) dirigibles carrying 10,000+ tons seem like a better path to develop. A dirigible should be able to
ascend almost vertically and can reduce its exposure to extreme wind effects.
layer (PBL) turbulence and the convective turbulence. Unless the ekranoplan is massive like a large cruise ship, it will be bounced around
quite a bit to the point that under conditions it can crash. I am assuming they are going to fly over land and not just water, this implies
all sorts of thermal plumes that are not there over water. (The PBL is thinner over water bodies than over land).
High altitude (above tropopause) dirigibles carrying 10,000+ tons seem like a better path to develop. A dirigible should be able to
ascend almost vertically and can reduce its exposure to extreme wind effects.
Rodion_Romanovic
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2653
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magnumcromagnon wrote:Cyberspec wrote:The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on
Correction Cyberspec...they were talking about a max payload of 800 tons not max take off weight.
They are two different projects... one from the 80s with max takeoff weight 2500 tons, and the new one with max takeoff weight at 800-1000 tons.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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I agree with KVS... on paper the Ekranoplans seem like a good idea with the very low drag, but when you factor in that jet engines are less effective at the very low altitudes these aircraft have to fly, and that the air is much thicker limiting top speed as well as engine efficiency... not to mention having to fly through the weather... which can be a serious issue too in some places... I think enormous airships could be rather more promising.
We have made great strides in design and technology and issues like fire can be reduced simply by purging the air between the internal bags of lifting hydrogen gas with nitrogen, and using fuel cell technology to convert between lifting gas and water ballast.... and with electric motor propulsion and battery technology or even hydrogen fuelled gas turbine engines and all electric drives and even solar panels... you could make it very cheap to run.
We have made great strides in design and technology and issues like fire can be reduced simply by purging the air between the internal bags of lifting hydrogen gas with nitrogen, and using fuel cell technology to convert between lifting gas and water ballast.... and with electric motor propulsion and battery technology or even hydrogen fuelled gas turbine engines and all electric drives and even solar panels... you could make it very cheap to run.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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The developer confirmed the creation of new Russian ekranoplanes
In the Central Design Bureau for hydrofoil ships named after R.E. Alekseev confirmed the creation of a new generation of ekranoplanes.
According to the organization’s press service, several similar aircraft are currently being created, including Chaika-2.
- JSC "Central Design Bureau for SEC named after RE Alekseev" is developing a new generation of ekranoplanes projects, including A-050-742d "Chaika-2". The ekranoplan project was presented at international exhibitions. Its technical characteristics are in the public domain. The management of the enterprise does not comment on the issues of building a new generation of ekranoplanes, the press service of the Central Design Bureau told RIA Novosti.
As follows from the description on the website of the development company, the marine multipurpose ekranoplane "The Seagull-2" of the project A-050-742d is intended for the transportation of passengers and goods in offshore coastal areas, as well as for solving specialized tasks of the Ministry of Emergencies. It can be used as a traveling-traveling, sanitary, vehicle, for monitoring the ecological state of inland water areas. The device is able to go to the unequipped coast with a slope of up to five degrees. Chaika-2 can be based on water and at a second-class airfield.
The ekranoplan crew consists of four people. The flight speed at the screen reaches 360-400 kilometers per hour, off-screen - 450 kilometers per hour. The flight range on the screen is three thousand kilometers, off-screen - 1.9 thousand kilometers.
We will remind, earlier, the American publication We Are the Mighty wrote about the new “sea monster” being created in Russia, which has missile weapons and is capable of transporting up to nine tons of payloads or up to 100 military personnel.
https://rg.ru/2020/05/18/reg-pfo/razrabotchik-podtverdil-sozdanie-novyh-rossijskih-ekranoplanov.html
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Lun ekranoplan being towed from Kaspiysk to Derbent.
kvs- Posts : 15857
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This is a related to the topic post.
The use of hydrofoils for large shipping has not been tried. I think this is a mistake. The small tourist boats in the USSR
moved fast and had small subsurface "wings". But that is not the only parameter range. The wings could be larger and the
speed slower. A lot of energy is wasted displacing thousands of tons of water by literally plowing through it. Having the
ship lifted reduces the water it needs to plow and saves energy.
Of course, supertankers are probably not a viable candidate since they would deform too much and could break apart.
But there is a whole load of other deep water shipping that could use hydrofoils. The ekranoplan fits in at the
small end of ship cargo capacity. So it is worthwhile trying it with ships.
In the case of storms and large waves, the ship just has to move slower to not be expose to hull breaks resulting from the
mid section being raised out of the water by two wave crests.
The use of hydrofoils for large shipping has not been tried. I think this is a mistake. The small tourist boats in the USSR
moved fast and had small subsurface "wings". But that is not the only parameter range. The wings could be larger and the
speed slower. A lot of energy is wasted displacing thousands of tons of water by literally plowing through it. Having the
ship lifted reduces the water it needs to plow and saves energy.
Of course, supertankers are probably not a viable candidate since they would deform too much and could break apart.
But there is a whole load of other deep water shipping that could use hydrofoils. The ekranoplan fits in at the
small end of ship cargo capacity. So it is worthwhile trying it with ships.
In the case of storms and large waves, the ship just has to move slower to not be expose to hull breaks resulting from the
mid section being raised out of the water by two wave crests.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
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Any ideas why it was moved & what will they do with it there?
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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The Caspian Sea Monster often gets a lot of attention... especially in the west... likely because of its missile and gatling gun armament (most people see the big missiles on its back but do not notice the gatling guns... the front one mounted forward under the front set of missiles and the other to the rear of the tail pointing backwards... but I personally like the designs of Bartini...
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Hole- Posts : 11121
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Tsavo Lion wrote:Any ideas why it was moved & what will they do with it there?
Exhibit in the Patriot park in the city of Derbent/Dagestan