Russian Naval Construction Plans and Numbers

hoom wrote:Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.

Shtorm-class​ fanart and Anime-class nuclear destroyer are just somebody's wet dream

If they do build either carrier or destroyer they will definitely not be these

This collage is just a joke

I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service.

But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?

• As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has been repeatedly stated & seems a reasonable target.
  
• 6* Buyan-M are in service, the other 6 in construction.
  
• All 6* 22160 are laid down.
  
• 1 of the icebreakers is laid down, pretty sure there is contract for the 2nd & I think its expected to be laid down soon.
  
• All 10* 20380 & both 20385 are under construction.
  
• Only the 1st 20386 is laid down, no progress made public but 10 is the number thats been announced as the plan for the class, it being intended to be the new main Frigate size ship. Clearly the actual number built has a fair chance of being different but when making a chart of 'what might the future navy look like' isn't it reasonable to take the announced 10?
  
• Both Gepards are built.
  
• 3* 11356 are in service the other 3 depicted are in construction, whether all 6 are completed, only the 3 already in service or only 1 more is still unclear but optimistically why not show all 6?
  
• 4* 22350 are in service or under construction.
  
• We don't know much about 22380M other than the project name, estimated 8,000ton size, some depictions from industry that would fit with a bigger/improved 22350 & announcement of 8 planned, its consistent to depict 8 of them.
  
• 6* Lider based on the public display model & announced plan for 6.
  
• 2* Ivan Gren, 1 is in service the 2nd is launched.
  
• 2* Livina are again based off a model & CGIs made by a company submitting proposals, Russian Navy clearly wants them as replacement for the un-delivered Mistrals.
  
• 2* Kirovs were completed, both are planned to be upgraded.

K is getting new propulsion so can be expected to be around for a while at least.
I've already expressed doubts about 3* large new CVs as well as K simultaneously but there's been officially stated desire for 4* carriers.

Put all together like that it looks more impressive than when split out between 4* fleets & Caspian flotilla.
Bear in mind that while this shows 19 new ships over 8000ton, UK alone will have 16 without even counting other EU, Japan & South Korea let alone China or US.

K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

Three carriers are more useful than two.

Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

GarryB wrote:

K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

Three carriers are more useful than two.

Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.

By that time K will be 5o years old and ready for new major refit, and this time that should be total remont and modernization. Bill would surely be bigger then 1 or even 2 billion usd.

I don't think it is likely that they will have spare money to invest in such a old ship.

Why modify 50 year old ship for new role? Why not build new one (If you actually need those kind of ship)?

Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.

Yes that was my reasoning.
Not because K is useless, just the timescale for 3 new CV coming into service is very long unless they suddenly hit China pace.

hoom wrote:I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service..........

If author wanted to be taken seriously (which obviously wasn't his goal given the result) he would not have used images that have no basis in reality.

Even speculative random hand drawn silhouette would have made more sense than what he decided to use.

Cut away top part of that picture and numbers make sense but otherwise it's a joke.

hoom wrote:.....
But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has .........

Yes there will. It's not just about numbers of ships announced. We (and others) came to that number based on amount of 75mm naval guns ordered so far.

@PapaDragon:

those drawings come from actual design bureaus, they may be pipe dreams, wet dreams or whatever but they are the only thing available which is not fan art

GarryB wrote:Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

Agreed. The K still has at least 20 years if service left in her, and more like 30+ all things considered as long as she receives periodic repairs/refurbs. When she comes out of her current refit, she will be a very different ship and these perennial nay-sayer clowns will look awfully stupid.

Most of its electronics are obsolete as is its armament and communications and other systems, so as it is the K could not continue on for very long, but at the end of the day a carrier is much better than no carrier, and I agree they are certainly not going to get three brand new CVNs by 2030... they might have one new one by then, which means having the K operating would be rather more useful than scrapping her and just having one carrier again. By 2035 they will likely have a second in the water, but I still think the K would be useful even then... lets face it the current plans are for the F-35 to be everyones standard fighter so even an Su-35 like aircraft operating from the K would be good enough most of the time... especially with the new types of radar it will be able to operate and the missiles also using such guidance systems too... will render stealth largely the white elephant it is... perhaps they might develop the F-14-2000... certainly much less stealthy than an F-35 but also much bigger payload, speed, range... etc etc.

They don't need carriers to fight NATO or the US or WWIII, they are to assure Russian Navy access around the world and to protect Russian navy surface vessels... they don't need to be 100K ton super carriers either, but they can't be dinky little half carriers like the Hermes or Mistral.

Bigger than the K for the fixed wing carriers and 30K ton plus for the Mistral replacements.

No VSTOL shit.

Kuznetsov could still be used for training.


Regarding the pic, I guess that there will be more small and medium size ships until all carriers and cruisers/destroyers are ready. Probably a second series of Bykovs plus more Karakurts.

Charly015 take on future sub fleet http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/08/primer-acercamiento-al-grafico-de-la.html

14* Borey
7* Yasen
18* Husky
3* Lada
9* Kalina
12* Kilo
And a gaggle of special purpose subs.

I'd have been inclined to include Kalibrated Oscars though I guess by the time there are 18* Huskys the Oscars will be long gone.

hoom wrote:Charly015 take on future sub fleet http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/08/primer-acercamiento-al-grafico-de-la.html

14* Borey
7* Yasen
18* Husky
3* Lada
9* Kalina
12* Kilo
And a gaggle of special purpose subs.

I'd have been inclined to include Kalibrated Oscars though I guess by the time there are 18* Huskys the Oscars will be long gone.

The graphic of Charly is speculative.For the moment Hasky is only in the papers, but 18 could be reasonable thinkig in the ammount of SSN keep in the inventory in last 15 years

In the program of armament 2011-2020 were planned 8 Borey and 7 Yasen
The 8 Borey was for replace old Delta II/III or Typhoon, and complement the 6 Delta IV for reach the parity with USA of 14 SSBN
The Yasen are not not necessarily replace for all the Oscars , that by time , a decade ago was at least 9 in the inventory and in the moment of Kursk accident was 11 and at least other planned

Now a new order of 6 Borey have been planned for the new program to replace the 6 Delta IV , and is posible more Yasen will be ordered, probably 3 more , perpahps 5 to complete 12
About tye SSN , Russia is repairing Akulas for keep on operation the most posible numbers, because Huskys will gone about 2030

Russia wants to have a nuclear submarine fleet about 40-45 units, so only need build 3 submarines each 2 years as much

The one unfinished Oscar II (Belgorod) will now become the first Poseidon carrier.

The Ministry of Defense will launch a large-scale program for the construction of small missile ships

MOSCOW, August 24. / TASS /. Russian enterprises are launching a large-scale program for the construction of small missile ships. This Friday on the air of the TV channel " Russia 24 " said the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov.

"A very large program for the construction of small missile ships of a new project, which will be equipped with modern weapons, a balanced composition of weapons, a missile complex, will have high seaworthiness, and a tugboat, a sea tug, Sergei Balk, - he said.

More:
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5488279

dino00 wrote:......

"A very large program for the construction of small missile ships of a new project, which will be equipped with modern weapons, a balanced composition of weapons, a missile complex, will have high seaworthiness, and a tugboat, a sea tug, Sergei Balk, - he said.

More:
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5488279

So a stretch version of Karakurt? Added AA VLS, Paket, sonar and extra fuel? Or smaller Bykov OPV?

I'd go with stretch Karakurt, numbers would be epic

dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense will launch a large-scale program for the construction of small missile ships

MOSCOW, August 24. / TASS /. Russian enterprises are launching a large-scale program for the construction of small missile ships. This Friday on the air of the TV channel " Russia 24 " said the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov.

"A very large program for the construction of small missile ships of a new project, which will be equipped with modern weapons, a balanced composition of weapons, a missile complex, will have high seaworthiness, and a tugboat, a sea tug, Sergei Balk, - he said.

More:
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5488279

This seems refered to the ships under construction (Segei Balk is a Project 23470 auxiliary ship launched in 2016) and to the new orders signed.

Hmm
Yet another new project?

IMO this could easily be a munged translation (Ru to En or Official to Reporter) and just talking about the contracts just signed for 22800 in the East (2 for Vladivostok & 4 for Amur)

нового проекта= new project

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

franco wrote:

marat wrote:нового проекта= new project

That is what the Karakurt is so... still not convinced. Time tells amigo.

new project which will have balanced weapons tho, ASW is missing. Besides why dont say 22800 but new project?

Karakurts are so stuffed with weapons and electronics that there is simply no room for anything more. The hull is too small to build viable multipurpose small corvette. But they can build several variants within same hull - antiship, ASW and AA variant.

Bykow was projected as well equipped OPV - offshore patrol. There is enough room to integrate different mission suites.