NO!
So why do some of you believe an Ami?
So you do concede the fact that the Su 57 just like the F -35 is not a stealthy platform, at all ? US DoD realised the limitations of the F-35 & that's why the F -22 will carry out the air to air role against both stealthy & non stealthy aircraft.
The Russian news network Zvezda has published a video of the Su-57 fighters' combat maneuvers during a stage of the Aviadarts-2018 all-army competition.
Made by an unmanned aerial vehicle, the footage showed a pair of Su-57s carrying out an attack on ground targets of a simulated enemy.
KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a way to debunk this analysis?
These aren't official values but given that the analyser is an aerospace engineer, I cant debunk his mathematical results.
Kopp never did RCS mes situated much lower due to consistent surface angling.
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/su_ang10.g]
As the lobes also spread out horizontally in a 10 degree arc, a lobe that is detected from range takes much longer to pass over the radar, meaning the target aircraft can be tracked for a much longer period of time.
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/lottom)
a) F-35 at 36k ft
b) F-22 at 50k ft
c) F-35 at 50k ft
d) Su-57 at 50k ft
Subsequently, networked launchers can fire from greater distances to intercept an aircraft which has lobes that take a long time to sweep over the engagement radars. The image below shows the possible firing distance from launchers to the intercept a pair of aircraft that have their farthest reaching lobe detected from the side aspect from maximum range. The model assumes a missile with a maximum speed of M4 and the Minizap tool was used to model the flight time.
The aircraft on the left is the F-35 flying at M0.8, 36,000ft based on its highest lobe being located 25 degrees below vertical. The right aircraft is the Su-57 supercruising at M1.5, 50,000ft and it's highest lobe is located less than 5 degrees below vertical (the engine nacelles).
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/missil1mg]
As can be seen, the length of time the aircraft is exposed from long range greatly impacts the length of time an IADS has to react to the aircraft.
Below is my own RCS modelling tests of the equivalent cross sections of the side aspects of 3 aircraft. Created by modelling the the angles of the aircraft based on data from numerous sources. All models were built to scale and all represent 0.5m lateral cross sections of the 3 aircraft. The results on the lobe placements are exactly the same as Kopp's findings. While the RCSs don't indicate the actual aircraft RCSs and are all based on exactly the same materials used, these give a reasonable indication of side lobe placement (as does Kopp's analysis, though he never modelled the F-35 nor the F-22).
Finally, the lobe placement on the F-35 for comparison, showing lobe observability range at various altitudes. You can see that strict adherence to set angles makes all the difference.
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/0mg]
The guy in the end says that it isnt a problem that the SU-57 isnt stealth because Russia only cares about fighting on its borders.
Err, no. ActionJackson has a long history of trolling and agenda posting, in the pursuit of US Stronkism. This latest outburst is nothing more then a continuation of that. I could also post in the F-35 thread every several months with a photo of its underside, and compare it to the J-31 to troll a hypothesis that the F-35 is severely compromised vs air-defenses from lower hemisphere engagement, but it would be a waste of everyone time. So is engagement in this pathetic eyeballing of RCS periodically every few months, under the guise of "I'm just asking questions bro!" which is really just veiled "It is not done exactly like Americuh does it, must be bad!".
Militarov wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:However I fully expected the Su-57 to have equal or superior front and side RCS compared to the F-22 and F-35.
Wouldnt go that far. US has far greater experience in these matters than Russia, to start with, they invested almost 5 decades into research of this area. Amount of detail they went into making aircraft descrete as possible is just mindblowing. I dont expect Russian ever going to such lenghts regarding it.
Russians tend to have "Its good enough" approach to things in everything.
LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.
Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...
Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.
Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...
Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
Hole wrote:The problem for the taxpayer in Amiland is that this hybrid will cost at least 100 Bill. to develop and then 500 Mill. per plane.
My advice: buy stocks from Lockheed Martin!
KomissarBojanchev wrote:The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.
Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...
Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
Pierre Sprey wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.
Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...
Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
And that's the most laughable of them all. Here's a jet with better all aspect stealth than the F-22
Here's another stealth US jet
Notice something ?
KomissarBojanchev wrote:The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
KomissarBojanchev wrote:Pierre Sprey wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:The mainPierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.
Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...
Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
They both have S-ducts, you have to be at a very specific angle to see even a portion of their fan blades. The Su-57 also has S-ducts, but very minimally. From head on, you can always easily see 50% of its fan blades. It wont matter when it gets radar blockers. Besides, what's you math that shows fan blades not increasing RCS?
This is complete and utter nonsense. You are talking about the one famous pic that shows engine face. If you look at that pic, you will notice that you aren't looking straight head on. Its not even close. You are looking half cock eyed at it.
Here's a head on pic
Here is the infamous pic. Its not head on. And we still don't know the whole history of this pic. Why is it the only one on the internet where you can see engine face ? Was this a setup ? I dunno. It doesn't really make any sense. Why is the hump where the engine is supposed to be missing ?
Pierre Sprey wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
Anyone who thinks that the su 57 intake setup does not have an offset intake setup like the YF 23 isn't paying attention
If you look on the blueprints or even look closely at the jet, you will notice that the engines of the Pak Fa are canted inward. They are pointing toward the centerline of the aircraft. Which means the engine is not square. Which means it requires less S to eliminate scatter from bouncing out of the intake. The intakes are also below the engines. Not in front of them.
KomissarBojanchev wrote:Pierre Sprey wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.Pierre Sprey wrote:LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:
those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.
So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck
The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.
And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.
Anyone who thinks that the su 57 intake setup does not have an offset intake setup like the YF 23 isn't paying attention
[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/30f4/f/2016/295/3/e/pakfayf23_by_kgb950-dalu3qimg]
If you look on the blueprints or even look closely at the jet, you will notice that the engines of the Pak Fa are canted inward. They are pointing toward the centerline of the aircraft. Which means the engine is not square. Which means it requires less S to eliminate scatter from bouncing out of the intake. The intakes are also below the engines. Not in front of them.
[img]https://img00.deviantart.net/6716/i/2017/311/b/c/pakfa10_2wg]
You can even more clearly see that the YF-23 has an S duct. The Su-57's fan blades can't be seen because theyre not illuminated.
Pierre Sprey wrote:Militarov wrote:KomissarBojanchev wrote:However I fully expected the Su-57 to have equal or superior front and side RCS compared to the F-22 and F-35.
Wouldnt go that far. US has far greater experience in these matters than Russia, to start with, they invested almost 5 decades into research of this area. Amount of detail they went into making aircraft descrete as possible is just mindblowing. I dont expect Russian ever going to such lenghts regarding it.
Russians tend to have "Its good enough" approach to things in everything.
No actually. This is a load of nonsense. Faux objectivity.
Russia invented stealth. Look it up.
The YF 23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. The su 57 has more in common with the YF 23 than the F-22. True blend wing with podded engines and no traditional fuselage.
The F-22 is a F-15 with LO features. Its nothing special. Yet you think it is. You were fooled by the hype. But the US stronkists claim it as their trophy for winning the cold war. No matter what Russia does, it will never be good enough. Even if they build a better plane which they have.
Azi wrote:
By the way...
What makes the F-22 and F-35 really dangerous to nearly every country in the world is not "stealth". It's their sheer number of planes! Another aspect is the sensor fusion, the control systems and the helmet of the F-35, this is really a revolution and of much higher impact than LO. But this aspect can even be applied to older planes. So the difference in a fight between F-35 and Su-57 would not be LO or not, it would be the overall situation awareness. But Su-57 is full of sensors, IRST, side radar etc. so I think the Su-57 is more than equal in a battle F-22 lacks the good sensor concept of F-35, it's emphasis is really LO, so the USA know why they don't produce F-22 anymore and prefere F-35.