PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

Would someone believe an "article" from a russian guy about the F-22 claiming the plane is shit based on some randome photos and obscure math?

NO!

So why do some of you believe an Ami?

Presentation of the engine of the first stage of the AL-41F-1 fighter PAK FA

No English translation there , Can some one read it can translate key points ? Original PDF Link http://www.aviationunion.ru/Files/Nom_7_OKB_L_11.pdf

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3221633.html

It is interesting presentation ( original ) of the engine of the first stage of the AL-41F-1 ( "Article 117"), established for the PAK FA fighter (Su-57), in "Experimental Design Bureau named after A. Lyulka" (Moscow, a branch of PJSC "UEC-Ufa motor-building production association ") and representing the nomination of A. Lyulka Design Bureau for the contest" Aviastroitel of the Year "following the results of 2017 in the nomination" For success in the development of aviation equipment and components (OKB of the year). "

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a way to debunk this analysis?

These aren't official values but given that the analyser is an aerospace engineer, I cant debunk his mathematical results.

Kopp never did RCS mes situated much lower due to consistent surface angling.
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/su_ang10.g]
As the lobes also spread out horizontally in a 10 degree arc, a lobe that is detected from range takes much longer to pass over the radar, meaning the target aircraft can be tracked for a much longer period of time.
[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/lottom)

a) F-35 at 36k ft
b) F-22 at 50k ft
c) F-35 at 50k ft
d) Su-57 at 50k ft

Subsequently, networked launchers can fire from greater distances to intercept an aircraft which has lobes that take a long time to sweep over the engagement radars. The image below shows the possible firing distance from launchers to the intercept a pair of aircraft that have their farthest reaching lobe detected from the side aspect from maximum range. The model assumes a missile with a maximum speed of M4 and the Minizap tool was used to model the flight time.

The aircraft on the left is the F-35 flying at M0.8, 36,000ft based on its highest lobe being located 25 degrees below vertical. The right aircraft is the Su-57 supercruising at M1.5, 50,000ft and it's highest lobe is located less than 5 degrees below vertical (the engine nacelles).

[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/70/75/06/missil1mg]

As can be seen, the length of time the aircraft is exposed from long range greatly impacts the length of time an IADS has to react to the aircraft.

Below is my own RCS modelling tests of the equivalent cross sections of the side aspects of 3 aircraft. Created by modelling the the angles of the aircraft based on data from numerous sources. All models were built to scale and all represent 0.5m lateral cross sections of the 3 aircraft. The results on the lobe placements are exactly the same as Kopp's findings. While the RCSs don't indicate the actual aircraft RCSs and are all based on exactly the same materials used, these give a reasonable indication of side lobe placement (as does Kopp's analysis, though he never modelled the F-35 nor the F-22).
Finally, the lobe placement on the F-35 for comparison, showing lobe observability range at various altitudes. You can see that strict adherence to set angles makes all the difference.


[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/17/0mg]

The guy in the end says that it isnt a problem  that the SU-57 isnt stealth because Russia only cares about fighting on its borders.

The guy is a complete F-ing troll who's home made RCS models and garbage should not be posted on Russia forums. Its bad enough that its posted anywhere. The whole point of these propagandists is to chip away at the reputation of the su 57. And its working. Because people like you are posting it. And other people on here are giving him the time of day.

WAKE THE F--K UP.

The ONLY reason the su 57 exists is to counter the stealth of the F-22. Its basic military doctrine. Russia did NOT need another jet. The su 35 has supercruise , 5th gen avionics and 3 D TVC. Russia developed the su 57 for the stealth and if the design was not satisfactory to meet or exceed the F-22, they would have kept developing it.

What is the most distinctive feature of 5th gen aircraft ? STEALTH. Whats the most distinctive feature of the su 57 ? STEALTH. 100% all around stealth. The su 57 is a cleaner design than the F-22. It has WAY smaller vertical stabilizers, a true blend wing with podded engines. Its probably more stealthy than the F-22. The F-22 is an F-15 with LO features.

Please stop giving western propagandists a voice.

Here is a quote from someone who isn't even a Russia fan about the propaganda posted previously from another site

Err, no. ActionJackson has a long history of trolling and agenda posting, in the pursuit of US Stronkism. This latest outburst is nothing more then a continuation of that. I could also post in the F-35 thread every several months with a photo of its underside, and compare it to the J-31 to troll a hypothesis that the F-35 is severely compromised vs air-defenses from lower hemisphere engagement, but it would be a waste of everyone time. So is engagement in this pathetic eyeballing of RCS periodically every few months, under the guise of "I'm just asking questions bro!" which is really just veiled "It is not done exactly like Americuh does it, must be bad!".

Militarov wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:However I fully expected the Su-57 to have equal or superior front and side RCS compared to the F-22 and F-35.

Wouldnt go that far. US has far greater experience in these matters than Russia, to start with, they invested almost 5 decades into research of this area. Amount of detail they went into making aircraft descrete as possible is just mindblowing. I dont expect Russian ever going to such lenghts regarding it.

Russians tend to have "Its good enough" approach to things in everything.

No actually. This is a load of nonsense. Faux objectivity.  

Russia invented stealth. Look it up.

The YF 23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. The su 57 has more in common with the YF 23 than the F-22. True blend wing with podded engines and no traditional fuselage.

The F-22 is a F-15 with LO features. Its nothing special. Yet you think it is. You were fooled by the hype. But the US stronkists claim it as their trophy for winning the cold war. No matter what Russia does, it will never be good enough. Even if they build a better plane which they have.

@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The problem for the taxpayer in Amiland is that this hybrid will cost at least 100 Bill. to develop and then 500 Mill. per plane.

My advice: buy stocks from Lockheed Martin!

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

Hole wrote:The problem for the taxpayer in Amiland is that this hybrid will cost at least 100 Bill. to develop and then 500 Mill. per plane.

My advice: buy stocks from Lockheed Martin!

Even better, they plan to let the Japanese pay for it

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument  from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

And that's the most laughable of them all. Here's a jet with better all aspect stealth than the F-22



Here's another stealth US jet



Notice something ?

Pierre Sprey wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument  from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

And that's the most laughable of them all. Here's a jet with better all aspect stealth than the F-22



Here's another stealth US jet



Notice something ?

They both have S-ducts, you have to be at a very specific angle to see even a portion of their fan blades. The Su-57 also has S-ducts, but very minimally. From head on, you can always easily see 50% of its fan blades. It wont matter when it gets radar blockers. Besides, what's you math that shows fan blades not increasing RCS?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument  from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

Anyone who thinks that the su 57 intake setup does not have an offset intake setup like the YF 23 isn't paying attention



If you look on the blueprints or even look closely at the jet, you will notice that the engines of the Pak Fa are canted inward. They are pointing toward the centerline of the aircraft. Which means the engine is not square. Which means it requires less S to eliminate scatter from bouncing out of the intake. The intakes are also below the engines. Not in front of them.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per point the arguments of user KGB in Keypub. While most of us get that there is an unrelenting agenda to put down the PAK-FA one way or another, I see no need to disregard any and all critical comments regarding its design even if they have merit. It is a fact that there are some surfaces in the fuselage that would lead to wider radiation lobes than in other LO designs, at least from a non-specialist perspective this seems to be reasonable. We don't have the complete information regarding how Sukhoi does these calculations, how important this particular aspect is in reality, how the final production versions will be... I personally don't take the Sukhoi guys for idiots so assume there is a good reason behind that, no sense in screwing a LO design just because of some small details.

Having said that: Russia is not betting all on the stealth for the 5G fighters. While they have said that the average level of RCS of the PAK-FA will be in line with the F-22, we don't know how this will turn out to be for every aspect of the plane. But IMO Russia did not design PAK-FA because of stealth, the very Fedosov from GosNIIAS says it is not the critical characteristic of a fighter, so they can have a different approach to this issue. Other sources voice the conviction that stealth is for conflicts with non-peer countries rather than destined to pierce the Russian AD in the first place you know...

Su-57 is superior both the F-22 and F-35 as a multirole fighter, simply because it does not originate from mixing incompatible requirements like being STOVL / light fighter / bomb truck at the same time. It will have range, payload, flexibility, agility, ease of operation and cost advantages on them and be as a result more effective as a weapon. Its strength is that it has no big apparent weaknesses. Hence Lockheed floats now the idea of a F-22 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main

They both have S-ducts, you have to be at a very specific angle to see even a portion of their fan blades. The Su-57 also has S-ducts, but very minimally. From head on, you can always easily see 50% of its fan blades. It wont matter when it gets radar blockers. Besides, what's you math that shows fan blades not increasing RCS?

This is complete and utter nonsense. You are talking about the one famous pic that shows engine face. If you look at that pic, you will notice that you aren't looking straight head on. Its not even close. You are looking half cock eyed at it.

Here's a head on pic



Here is the infamous pic. Its not head on. And we still don't know the whole history of this pic. Why is it the only one on the internet where you can see engine face ? Was this a setup ? I dunno. It doesn't really make any sense. Why is the hump where the engine is supposed to be missing ?

And you will also notice that neither the X-32 or YF 23 had S ducts. The YF 23 has podded engines with offset intakes. Just like the su 57. The X-32's face is somewhat covered and has a baffle door that's supposed to block it in low altitudes. Show me the YF-23 S duct

Pierre Sprey wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument  from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

Anyone who thinks that the su 57 intake setup does not have an offset intake setup like the YF 23 isn't paying attention



If you look on the blueprints or even look closely at the jet, you will notice that the engines of the Pak Fa are canted inward. They are pointing toward the centerline of the aircraft. Which means the engine is not square. Which means it requires less S to eliminate scatter from bouncing out of the intake. The intakes are also below the engines. Not in front of them.

You can even more clearly see that the YF-23 has an S duct.  The Su-57's fan blades can't be seen because theyre not illuminated.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Pierre Sprey:

those are point per poin2 / F-35 hybrid. They are no idiots and see the shortcomings of their two 5G designs.

So in summary let them talk, really we don't give a f*ck

The propagandists main mantra is , that both the F-22 and F-35 are stealth and that the su 57 isn't. Which is like saying Stalins atom bomb was TNT. It makes no sense.

And what is all this twaddle about the back of the su 57 ? The F-35 has one big round engine with a serrated tip. The su 57 will have 2 smaller engines with serrated tips.

The main argument  from western propagandists is the lack of S-ducts. According to them every single aircraft with a modicum of stealth(including the eurocanards) must have them. If S-ducts are equal to radar blockers remains to be seen.

Anyone who thinks that the su 57 intake setup does not have an offset intake setup like the YF 23 isn't paying attention

[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/30f4/f/2016/295/3/e/pakfayf23_by_kgb950-dalu3qimg]

If you look on the blueprints or even look closely at the jet, you will notice that the engines of the Pak Fa are canted inward. They are pointing toward the centerline of the aircraft. Which means the engine is not square. Which means it requires less S to eliminate scatter from bouncing out of the intake. The intakes are also below the engines. Not in front of them.

[img]https://img00.deviantart.net/6716/i/2017/311/b/c/pakfa10_2wg]

You can even more clearly see that the YF-23 has an S duct.  The Su-57's fan blades can't be seen because theyre not illuminated.

Wrong. Look at the famous pic again. You are not looking head on.

The YF 23 does not have S ducts. It has offset intakes. Just like the su 57.

The F-22 has S ducts. The Mig 1.44 has S ducts. The YF 23 does not.

Pierre Sprey wrote:

Militarov wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:However I fully expected the Su-57 to have equal or superior front and side RCS compared to the F-22 and F-35.

Wouldnt go that far. US has far greater experience in these matters than Russia, to start with, they invested almost 5 decades into research of this area. Amount of detail they went into making aircraft descrete as possible is just mindblowing. I dont expect Russian ever going to such lenghts regarding it.

Russians tend to have "Its good enough" approach to things in everything.

No actually. This is a load of nonsense. Faux objectivity.  

Russia invented stealth. Look it up.

The YF 23 had better all aspect stealth than the F-22. The su 57 has more in common with the YF 23 than the F-22. True blend wing with podded engines and no traditional fuselage.

The F-22 is a F-15 with LO features. Its nothing special. Yet you think it is. You were fooled by the hype. But the US stronkists claim it as their trophy for winning the cold war. No matter what Russia does, it will never be good enough. Even if they build a better plane which they have.

You lost all your credibility when you said "Russians invented stealth"... seriously man. Is like saying Serbians invented electricity.

F-22 and F-15 have so many differences in their design that i can literally say that F-22 is actually MiG-25 with LO features because they both have wings and two engines. Delta-wing designs tend to look alike you know, because.. you know... delta fucking wings.

In regard of this particular niche of technology... yes.

No S-duct, just front curvatory lip and hopefully radar blocker later.



S-duct looks like this. There are also photos of AMCA S-duct casted mockups.

Its just different approach to the problem, there are reasons for and aganist both solutions, its the tradeoff.

Stealth isn't all it's cracked up to be. Everyone has known this since forever, and the Su-57 mirrors this line of thinking. A radar rich environment is going to spot your stealth fighter, S-ducts and flat nozzles or no. It's weird how people went from claiming the F-22 et al. were all pretty well detectable given the right radar to then going to down the same line of reasoning as the Yanks with the Su-57. Stealth is great against enemies that do not possess the means to combat it, but it gets reduced to being simply another feature when faced with real adversaries.

Also, the F-22 is a 20+ year old aircraft. That's matured technology, something as simple as S-ducts is not somehow impossible for Sukhoi to achieve, or better upon. The Su-57 clearly has a much more flexible mission statement than the F-22.

Funny discussion about "stealth"

First of all...Germans invented "stealth" in WW2 for their submarines. It was a kind of foam to reduce radar reflection of the snorkel. Stealth is known since radar is known!

The Su-57 is in frontal aspect similar LO to F-22, the rear and side aspect are worse to F-22 and F-35. That is known to everyone, because it's the concept of Su-57! The Su-57 is not a multi-role fighter to operate freely in enemy AD zones, it's more a "stealth killer". That's the main role of Su-57, coming frontal near an enemy "stealth plane" and then destroying it at near distance. The Su-57 is a "stealth killer" and is still a good multi-role fighter at all

Every plane is a compromise! Su-57 is an compromise between agility, speed, range and LO with emphasis at speed and agility. The emphasis of F-35 is LO and it's much easier to counter LO, than to counter agility!

LO means not invisible!!! LO planes are still visible in long wave radar band, but there is a problem to target them, because fire control radar to guide missiles to the aim are still in short wave length. At short distance every LO plane is fully visible to short wave radar. There are some tricks to compense this deficit at long range...using multiple long wave radar stations to achieve better resolution, using better data processing to get a better signal etc. But that's the trick of USA, to attack from distance with long range weapons and being at the same time out of engagement reach due to "stealth". And here comes the Su-57 in game, it's a supporter of the AD systems, because it can take out enemy "stealth planes" trying to strike your AD systems. In combination with Pantsir and S-400 the Su-57 makes the integrated AD zone unpenetrable. The Su-57 itself is not designed to loiter hours over hours in enemy territory, like Murican planes to terrorize third world countries. The Su-57 is a more defensive concept with a aggressive role, the role of a "stealth hunter".

By the way...
What makes the F-22 and F-35 really dangerous to nearly every country in the world is not "stealth". It's their sheer number of planes! Another aspect is the sensor fusion, the control systems and the helmet of the F-35, this is really a revolution and of much higher impact than LO. But this aspect can even be applied to older planes. So the difference in a fight between F-35 and Su-57 would not be LO or not, it would be the overall situation awareness. But Su-57 is full of sensors, IRST, side radar etc. so I think the Su-57 is more than equal in a battle F-22 lacks the good sensor concept of F-35, it's emphasis is really LO, so the USA know why they don't produce F-22 anymore and prefere F-35.

Personally I think the USA are making a big mistake with the F-35, because it's one plane for every role. I think Russia should maintain the classic roles and don't use Su-57 for every role. So they need in future a replacement for Mig-31 and a light fighter, a replacement for Mig-29/Mig-35. Even the Su-25 comes in age and need a replacement and what the Muricans want in distant future, to replace the A-10 with F-35, is only stupid!

Azi wrote:

By the way...
What makes the F-22 and F-35 really dangerous to nearly every country in the world is not "stealth". It's their sheer number of planes! Another aspect is the sensor fusion, the control systems and the helmet of the F-35, this is really a revolution and of much higher impact than LO. But this aspect can even be applied to older planes. So the difference in a fight between F-35 and Su-57 would not be LO or not, it would be the overall situation awareness. But Su-57 is full of sensors, IRST, side radar etc. so I think the Su-57 is more than equal in a battle F-22 lacks the good sensor concept of F-35, it's emphasis is really LO, so the USA know why they don't produce F-22 anymore and prefere F-35.

Sensor fission, situation awareness, helmet mount off axis targeting and data collection and so on is new buzzword for the US, but it is a 70 thing for the Soviet airforce.

So, nothing new here.