Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

Well if the AK-12 upgraded Kalashnikov family of weapons is to be based on a rifle in the AK-100 series, then in my opinion the best rifle to base it on would be the AK-107.

Most of the other changes are largely cosmetic and result in weapons the west seem to think are revolutionary, yet are in actual fact simply conventional rifles covered in rails... nothing really revolutionary about them at all.

Of course balanced recoil mechanisms are not really new either and rifles with balanced recoil mechanisms were tested against the AK-74 in the mid 1970s to replace the AKM in Soviet service.

They failed, but the requirement focus has changed... as proven by the fact that the last time they tested rifles in the mid 1990s the AN-94 won, over the much simpler and easier to produce AK-74M.

Here is a recent photo:



Most important I think is the position of the rear iron sights and the rail for mounting optics in front of it.

Repeat the selector lever on the other side, add a push through button safety near the pistol grip so that left or right handed you can operate it with the combination of trigger finger and palm, and repeat a cocking handle on both sides of the rifle and all of a sudden you have most of an AK-200 potentially.

I just hope they take the risk and base the AK-200 on this rather than the AK-74M as the balanced recoil mechanism would make it stand out from new western rifles.

Ok I must admit that I am dumb when it comes to guns

But can some one explain me in simple english what is the fuss about the new AK-12 and is this the AK-200 we have been waiting for ? Any thing interesting about AK-12 ?

Thanks
Austin

GarryB wrote:The new ammo was right in front of my face... when they posted the photo of the guy holding the ASh-12 there was another photo of nice shiny bullets of all sorts of types.

Here is it here:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f41/15/11/39/27/dsc11411.jpg

They do look shiny for sure but also life threatening

Would be interesting to see them together and fired from their respective weapons.

The 12.7 x 55mm rounds for the Vychlop are heavy and slow, while the 12.7 x 55mm rounds for the ASh-12 are lighter and faster, but still very heavy and large calibre compared with standard assault rifle rounds.

A 7.62mm hunting round will generally mushroom on impact to a diametre of 12.7mm calibre, so these rounds will have that sort of effect on the target. The difference is they will likely retain their shape and will therefore likely penetrate better.

Would be an interesting round for shooting pigs actually as it would likely have good penetration in the faster rounds.

It will likely be a good round to penetrate doors and walls to hit targets hiding behind.

The bottom right three (a 9mm pistol round, though the calibre is 4.5 x 19mm, but it is a subcalibre projectile in a 9mm NATO round) plus two 5.45 x 39mm rounds are all underwater rounds for use by navy special forces.

The two 5.45mm rounds are used in the ADS against targets in the water (from the shore), from under the water at targets in the water, and from in the water at targets on shore or on boats. Standard ammo is used for firing above water at above water targets of course.

I suspect these new types of ammo will allow Russian miltary forces to perhaps use standard weapons (rifles and pistols) against threats and target in the water.

Will be interesting to learn more about all of these new types of ammo for the Russian military and police forces...

This report:

http://en.rian.ru/business/20111221/170413185.html

Teaches us to not read too much into small clues... something I do a lot... guilty as charged...

He basically dismisses claims that the AK will suddenly disappear from Russian service, he also says they have plenty of weapons in stock.

Now in the Army for special units like Spetsnaz (GRU), but also in the Navy (naval spetsnaz) and in the FSB (Alpha), and of course the VDV and Naval Infantry units that are classed as elite in very small batches they might purchase limited numbers of foreign systems.

I know for a fact that the FSB special teams they have purchased CornerShot from the Israelis, but that they were developing their own equivalent that would be compatible with Soviet and Russian military pistols and SMGs.

For a new Assault Rifle the VDV and NI have been described as testing the ADS rifle and also some force are using AN-94s.

Based on this I doubt a new AK-200 will be mass produced to replace the AK-74, but as long as it is fairly straight forward and relatively easy to produce (unlike the AN-94 which is probably too complicated to mass produce and put in general service) that it might be used by special forces instead of the tricked out AK-74Ms they are currently using.

I rather suspect that they will likely include the new rifle (whether it is the AK-74M (which is basically the AK-100... the 5.45mm calibre rifle barrel length AK-100 series rifle, with the AK-105 being the 5.45mm calibre carbine length barrel equivalent.) or if a new version of the AN-94 from Nikonov, or new model of the AEK-971 from Kovrov, or ADS from KBP, will become part of the new Russian model of FELIN and the new rifle, which ever is chosen will be issued to the troops at that sort of rate (ie elite first and then filtering down).

This is all just my opinion of course.

This AK-107 looks like a quickly put together prototypwe that has seen a lot of usage.
Photo by Vitaly Kuzmin. Full size high resolution: http://77rus.smugmug.com/Military/TSNIITOCHMASH/i-BQRrkMT/0/O/tsniitochmash18.jpg

I still think this is what they should base the AK-200 on.

If it hasn't got a balanced recoil mechanism then just add some rails to existing weapons and fit a 60 round double stack mag and just start training the troops to shoot left handed.

All of a sudden it is very ergonomic... and if left handers can learn to shoot right handed then right handed people should manage learning to shoot left handed...

BTW that rifle is a further development of the AK-107, with a picatinny rail added and a rear peep iron sight as shown more clearly in this photo:



I would think that repeating the selector on the right side of the rifle and perhaps adding a large vertical bar to the end of the cocking handle to make it easier to reach over and operate plus low profile rails over the front and top of the rifle and of course the 60 round mag and new rear mounted iron sights might make a cheap and simple AK-12.

As an alternative you could make a more complex upgrade with the bolt carrier having cocking handles on both sides and a push button safety that can be near your thumb so you can have the rifle set to fire full auto but with the push button safety on.
I would cover the front and top of the rifle in low profile rails, and keep the AK-107s rear mounted iron sight and balanced recoil mechanism and add a 3 round burst as well as full auto.
I would also design the barrel so that it can be removed and with the bolt replaced can change calibre.

This more complex upgrade will be ideal for special forces as it means you can have one rifle in 5.45 x 39mm, or if you prefer you can have it in 7.62 x 39mm... depending on where you are operating, and for sneaky stuff you can fit the 9 x 39mm barrel for quiet ops without needing 3 separate rifles.

You can also have models of different barrel length, so you could have a short barrel SMG like model, a mid calibre carbine like the AK-105, a rifle length version, a marksman/LMG length barrel model for longer range shooting.

The magazines for these three calibres are all basically the same size, and the actions are similar.

You would want the barrel and bolt carrier and bolt to be designed in a way so that the wrong bolt, bolt carrier, barrel, and magazine combination is not possible... a 5.45 x 39mm round in a 9 x 39mm probably just wouldn't fire because the firing pin will not contact the primer, or if you have 5.45mm bolts, bolt carriers, and magazines but a 9 x 39mm barrel then you will find accuracy and muzzle velocity to be very poor, but trying to fire a 9 x 39mm down a 5.45 x 39mm or even a 7.62 x 39mm barrel might be a problem.

So obviously the weapon would need to be designed to prevent the wrong ammo being used.

New Mags could potentially add the option of last shot hold open device like on the SKS.

The new sight will allow for the Navy to shoot around the corner, hiding in the shelter

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120112/537637751.html

That is the thermal sight the VDV were testing a while back... they have clearly completed the updates and have it ready for use.


Note the Russian military bought some corner shot systems from Israel, which they liked but had to redesign them to take Soviet and Russian weapons instead of western weapons as the original system was designed to handle.

This is different however as this is a thermal sight that can clearly transmit live video to the soldiers helmet mounted sight...

Russian assault rifle parts found in Urals dump

Police have found functional gun parts at a dumping ground for destroyed Kalashnikov automatic rifles in the Urals republic of Udmurtia, local Interior Minister Alexander Pervukhin said on Monday.

“I regret to report we’ve discovered many firearms parts and details that can still be used,” Pervukhin told the republic's head, Alexander Volkov. He did not elaborate on how the rifle parts ended up as waste.

The local Kalashnikov recycling facility already provided locals with a surprise gift last month when a retiree purchased several old crates for firewood for 500 rubles (around $15), only to discover nearly 80 Kalashnikov assault rifles inside them.

The rifles produced by the Izhevsky arms plant were to be destroyed at the facility, but a worker sold several crates’ worth of them , assuming they were empty. Some ended up in a garbage dump.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in his Twitter blog that he would fly to Udmurtia to organize a meeting on firearms production and storage at the military compound.

“A retiree found dozens of Kalashnikov assault rifles…Well! I’ll just have to hold a production meeting on firearms on [January] 24 at Izhmash,” Rogozin wrote last week.

In June, an arms depot was swept by fire in Udmurtia after a soldier dropped an artillery round. At least 95 people were injured, and 12,000 evacuated.

The Defense Ministry announced in September that it had stopped purchasing Kalashnikovs because it has several million already, more than an army of one million could possibly need.

Izhevsk arms plant is currently working on revamping the legendary rifle, which head designer Vladimir Zlobin said in November would be fitted for one-handed use, Izvestia reported at the time. There was no immediate information of when a presentation of the redesigned weapon would be held.

http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120116/170779250.html

That will leave them a bit red faced, though it is pretty clear that the problem is with the recycling place... sending 80 rifles to be destroyed suggests they might have been faulty, or well used test examples perhaps?

You wouldn't send brand new rifles to be destroyed unless they were unsellable... and the Russian military might not be interested in older models any more but I am sure there are plenty of exporters that could sell them for more than their weight in recycled metal and plastic.

Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin visited Izhmash. AK-12 rifle and "Strike" pistol where shown.



And here is another video of the same visit.
BTW, Rogozin appointed Mikhael Kalashnikov as his advisor for military matters

2nd video: http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201201241639-hebd.htm

AK-12







A sniper rifle that The Deputy Prime Minister is testing. It does not look like the SV-98, what is it?

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What are the pluses and minuses of Ak-12 assult rifle ?

What happens to the famed AK-200 rifle if AK-12 gets selected or will they both compete and winner takes it all ?

I don't know the answer to those questions Austin.

Here is the other side of the AK-107 prototype:

And here is a photo for GarryB to drool over

Note: This photo does not have the AK-12 among the other firearms

Important notice to those who missed it: Photos and videos about the AK-12 are on the previous page.

One more still shot from the video about the AK-12 I posted on the previous page:

Excellent work TheArmenian...

What are the pluses and minuses of Ak-12 assult rifle ?

Just looking at the drawing (and unable to understand the text) I would think this is a rather good attempt to solve the main issues with the AK-74M, while at the same time not wasting energy making a radically new design.

It is clearly not a balanced recoil mechanism, which is very disappointing to me, however if accuracy and range are being emphasised by the Russian military then the old practise of firing in bursts will likely be changed to short range practise... in which case a balanced recoil mechanism is not so important anymore.

If we look at the problems they had with the original AK... the difficulty in fitting new items is clearly solved with top, bottom and side mounted rails. They seem to be lower profile and the side mounted rails are short and don't interfere with grip.
The standard bayonet lug is present as is the lug used to attach the standard grenade launcher.
It looks like the cocking handle has been moved to the left side of the rifle and by the look of the selector it is likely present on both sides.
The buttstock appears to be both adjustible for angle and length as well as being a folding stock and the iron sights now use a peep rear sight, which some people prefer.

The muzzle brake seems to be longer and perhaps also reduces flash and blast during firing, though that might just be the way it is drawn.

The mag will likely be a 60 round mag which will reduce the number of mag changes required.

Overall I think it is a good weapon that should be straight forward to make and in the western calibres in semi auto only might sell well as a "hunting rifle" as it will be easy to mount western scopes etc.

What happens to the famed AK-200 rifle if AK-12 gets selected or will they both compete and winner takes it all ?

My answer here is wrong. The AK-200 is different from the AK12, the AK-200 appears to be a standard AK-74M with a length adjustible stock, and rails on the top, sides and lower front stock area. The AK-12 on the other hand has a new design adjustible stock plus redesigned safety and cocking handle and mechanism.

I rather suspect the AK12 is better and without the balanced recoil mechanism cheaper and easier to use.
The AK-200 and the AK-12 are the same thing.

The AK-200 was the upgrade of the AK-74M like the T-90AM was the upgrade of the T-90S. The difference is that they want the AK-200 to be accepted into service in 2012, so they have named it AK-12.

Keep in mind that this is from one company and there are several other gun makers that will put their rifles into the ring to get a piece of the pie.

Kovrov (AEK-xxx), KBP (ADS), and of course Abakan (AN-94) will all want this interim contract.

This weapon will likely be bought and used in small numbers for special forces testing... who knows what could happen. The VDV and naval infantry already tested the ADS and it is possible they might adopt it, so there could be several different rifles adopted in the short term till a new from scratch weapon has been developed and perfected.

Here is the other side of the AK-107 prototype:

So while it has rails, it retains the side rail mount for standard Soviet and Russian scopes.

Note: This photo does not have the AK-12 among the other firearms

Nice... any bigger shots?

Looks like a mix of ADS and ASh-12 although the two middle ASh-12s have different magazines, with the upper rifle having a shorter magazine perhaps with a heavier calibre round for sniper use, while the lower rifle could be the assault rifle version...

Thanks for posting... very interesting.

Just having a zoomed in look at that photo of all those rifles on the desk I think the top rifle is a standard AK-74M, which is perhaps the control to compare the other rifles to.

The next rifle down is the ADS, followed by two ASh-12s with different grenade launcher attachments fitted and the bottom rifle of which only the top part is visible is I believe Groza due to the shape and position of the suppressor.

...and Yes... I would like all those weapons for my collection.

Thanks for your explaination Garry , I have voted for your post

A sniper rifle that The Deputy Prime Minister is testing. It does not look like the SV-98, what is it?

Could be the SV-338, which doesn't look much like the SV-98.

BTW it is interesting that the AK-12 comes in 7.62 x 51mm calibre... but not 7.62 x 54mm.

Makes you wonder a bit about things... the VDV recently adopted some Steyr sniper rifles and they didn't say if they were in NATO or Russian 30 calibre...

If this weapon is an interim weapon it means small scale issue to elite troops... perhaps the 7.62 x 51mm calibre AK-12 is for soldiers acting as spotters with troops issued with Steyr sniper rifles in 7.62 NATO???

The gas system looks like it is the same as the AK-74/AKM, but is it possible that with the new mechanism they might have separated the bolt carrier from the piston rod just as they did with the SVD to make it lighter and reduce the mass slapping back and forth under recoil?

Perhaps they will aim the pairing of the 7.62 x 51mm and 5.56 x 45mm NATO chamberings to NATO countries that want to keep Kalashnikovs in service but want to use standard NATO ammo.

Certainly when push came to shove the Georgians after being trained on M4s and Minimis or Negevs seem very keen to switch back to AKs when it came time to actually shoot real bullets at real targets.

I would still like to see them adopt that 6 x 49mm round they developed to replace their 7.62 x 54mm round.

Perhaps with the new high power propellent they could make it much shorter... like a 6 x 30mm round with a 120mm bullet at 1,200m/s...

Anybody with a high res image of the three posters on the wall as seen in the video?

and the gun