Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

Close ups of the Gyurza:

And a size comparison of the SR-3 Vikhr with the AKSU-74:

Thanks for posting those pics.

I must say I prefer the Gyurza with the dark slide... and the 9 x 21mm round it fires should not be confused with the western 9 x 21mm round which was designed as a mild alternative that was different from the 9 x 19mm NATO round.

The Russian 9 x 21mm is comparable to the 357 magnum pistol round which is a very capable man killer... and it has a large capacity 18 shot magazine.

Regarding the SR-3 compared with the AKS-74U it should be kept in mind that the AKS-74U is a very compact weapon on its own, and relies on high velocity light 5.45mm bullets for its effect.

The SR-3 fires heavy subsonic 9mm slugs and when fitted with a suppressor is a very quiet and compact weapon.

I would be happy with any or all of the above...

Note the main criticism of the AKS-74U is its lack of accuracy over more than 100m or so, but if you want to fire 5.45mm ammo at more than 100m you just take a full barrel length AK... in urban fighting or close protection from a vehicle the AKS-74U is fine.

Note also more than a few Russian rifle makers have mentioned that the new requirements for accuracy from assault rifles exceeds previous requirements for sniper rifles... considering about 2/3rds of soldiers in WWII didn't even fire their weapons and less than 5% did most of the aimed fire killing one wonders if that is money being well spent.

Of course modern training is designed to get the soldiers to shoot and to kill... the main problem is that dealing with that soldier afterwards when they try to come to terms with what they had to do is not so sophisticated or studied in military colleges.

IZHMASH ARMS DEMONSTRATION

AK-12


SV-98 Sniper rifle in .338 caliber with the new polymer stock together with and an SVDS.


SV-98


From top: AK-12, AK-107 and AK-9 in (9x39 caliber)


AK-12


AK-9 in 9x39 rounds SP-5 and SP-6


AK-9


AN-94, AK-103 and AK-74 with high capacity magazine


Vityaz in 9x19


AK-12


AK-74 with Picatiny rails


AK-107


New version of Saiga 12gauge shotgun


Saiga 12 gauge

Woah that Saiga looks insane. Any more details?

I want that mag well.

If the AK-12 is successful I would like to see an upgraded Vityaz with revised cocking handle and the ability to change sides of the handle and of course the new safety/selector.

These changes along with rails allowing addons would make it as user friendly as the HK MP5 in a form that is consistent with the AK12 series, so potentially with a multi calibre design a special forces operator could get away with three weapons... the Vityaz, the AK12 light and the Ak12 heavy with a range of barrels in different lengths as needed for the different calibres.

In fact it would be useful to make the Vityaz able to use 9 x 19mm and 9 x 21 Gyurza and perhaps 7.62 x 25mm, which together with a light AK12 and 5.45 x 39mm and perhaps 9 x 39mm and 7.62 x 39mm calibres with SMG, Carbine, and Rifle length barrels and of course a heavy AK-12 in 7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 54 and perhaps 6 x 49mm or whatever they go for that could replace the 7.62 x 54mm round as a sniper and machine gun round.

I have read an article on the future of Russian weapons and in terms of small arms they are talking about new alloys that could mean the introduction of aluminium alloys making things stronger and lighter, and new materials to make things lighter. In terms of propellent a main focus was better quality ammo production to improve performance and accuracy and consistency and also the issuing of ammo in clips rather than loose in boxes and in properly sealed containers to allow much greater shelf lives and also to make it much quicker to load. Delivered in 15 round plastic clips you just need two strips to fill a 30 round mag and 4 to fill a 60 round mag so it is more efficient to carry ammo in strips and load mags in the field using stripper clips.

Improvements in powder will make them more powerful but also cleaner burning and more consistent so accuracy will be improved as well. The ammo will be loaded with powder that suits the weapons that use it so muzzle velocities will be higher without higher pressures, the burn rates will be optimised to more effectively use the barrel lengths.

I rather suspect that when they are ready to reveal the new replacement for the 7.62 x 54mm round it might use a lighter plastic case, or perhaps no case at all.

Thanks for the photos BTW... I gave you a vote for them.

TR1 wrote:Woah that Saiga looks insane. Any more details?

http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/180512.shtml

The problem with military and police shotguns is that to be useful they need to be able to fire a wide range of ammo types, but with a semi auto design you are limited as to what types you can actually use.

Mythbusters moment... those who have enjoyed the Half Life series of computer games probably think of the SPAS-12 shotgun as being a pump action weapon, but it is primarily a semi automatic weapon. There is actually a selector switch that allows pump or semi auto use, with the automatic gas operation mode selected with the pump slide forward it will fire in semi auto, or one shot for each pull of the trigger, but with the slide back it actually fires full auto at about 4 rounds per second.

For most uses semi auto is the preferred option for use against humans as solid slug and buckshot are high pressure powerful shells that cycle the weapon easily. For some loads like birdshot or even bean bag non lethal rounds you need to use pump action mode to get reliable use.

Check interview with Chief Designer of JSC "Concern Izhmash

http://gurkhan.blogspot.in/


Among other thing he clarifies that he did not went for Balanced Recoil Mechanism for AK-12 because the level of recoil achieved with AK-12 is as good as any Balanced recoil rifle , He says he fired both AK-12 and Balanced Recoil gun and did not feel the difference , it make AK-12 cheaper and less complicated , which is cool

Interesting too there are multi calibre models with differing barrel lengths for special forces in development, and they are working on new materials and also a new calibre between 5.45mm and 7.62mm.

Am looking forward to the new civilian models they are working on.

Also they are looking at new materials... that was mentioned that they are looking at aluminium alloy components and other special synthetic materials to reduce weight.

Also interesting they are improving the accuracy of the SV-98... and that the AK12 will be as accurate as western rifles...

Will try to find the actual video soon.

What you're saying about hacking up a 65 year old design does have some truth. When the Yugoslovians first built their AK, they redesigned it to have a true BHO and even designed special BHO magazine. The rifle couldn't take regular AK magazines. They later ditched the integral BHO and magazines. Probably for a good reason. Either way, having a BHO or no BHO has disadvantages and advantages, designers have to decide what's more important. On a rifle with a BHO and bolt catch, you can actually stop the rifle from firing if your hand accidently or an object accidently sweeps the bolt catch. The 3 round burst mechanism also without a doubt adds complexity. I don't mind them adding complexity as long as it doesn't make the rifle any less reliable.

Shooter's grenade launcher, OC-69 (Russia)

In the Tula Instrument Design Bureau has developed a new small arms and grenade launcher under the designation of the OC-69, featuring some very unique and uncommon features. Weapons is a sub-machine gun, created on a "bull daddies", shooting rounds .45 ACP (11,43 x23) with a grenade launcher caliber 30 mm, silent shooting shots. The trigger mechanism of small arms and grenade launcher OC-69 provides firing a single shot and burst. The trigger is used alone, with switching between submachine gun and a grenade launcher. Translator-fuse is located on the pistol grip fire control.
Powered weapons 11.43-mm ammunition carried out four-row detachable box magazine capacity of 40 rounds. Shooter's grenade launcher, OC-69 is a selective power. Store consists of two sections, with the shooter may choose to use any of the compartments. For firing a grenade launcher used muzzle-loading shot type VOG-30, but with the construction on the basis of SP-4 cartridge. For the grenade is a piston on the powder charge and primer in the bottom of the sleeve. During the shot piston acts on a grenade until it leaves the pocket, but completely wedged in Dultsev without going further.
Powder gases are cut off inside the sleeve, whereby a shot is silent. Firing range of machine pistol ammo 11.43 mm is 150 meters. The firing range of 30 mm grenade is 500 meters. For the convenience of holding weapons, especially when maneuvering in close combat in the city, shooting-grenade launcher equipped with OC-69 front handle, installed on launcher, the trigger guard. To the trunk of a submachine gun can be mounted supplied silencer. Shutter cocking lever located inside the handle for carrying. Sights, consisting of the front sight and adjustable rear sight, located in the carrying handle, which is above the receiver.
On the carrying handle a Picatinny strap that helps you install the weapons various collimator, optical and night sights. Grenade launcher sight is separate and attached to the right front of the receiver. On the butt infantry grenade launcher OC-69 has a rubber recoil pad. Among the obvious shortcomings OC-69, common to weapons scheme "Bull Dad" short length sighting. However, this can be eliminated using a collimator sights. Among the advantages of compact enough weapons, given the magazine capacity and the availability of a grenade launcher. In addition, the axis of the barrel of a submachine gun is in line with the stock, which reduces recoil shoulder and eventually increases accuracy.
Key Features
Caliber: 11,43 × 23 (.45 ACP)
Length weapons ---
Barrel length: ---
Weight unloaded: ---
Rate of fire: --- rds. / Min
Capacity: 40 rounds

So this is an interesting variation.
Early on the grenadier in a US platoon carried the M79 40mm grenade launcher, but the size and bulk of the weapon and ammo meant that his other weapon was a 45 cal pistol.

Very soon the M203 under barrel grenade launcher was developed which was a single shot launcher that attached under the barrel of a rifle... in the US army that was the M16, so the solider at least had a rifle to defend himself with as well as a grenade launcher.

This new weapon, called OTs-69 (the translator is wrong) is a bullpup 45 cal rifle, with a 4 row stack magazine that holds 40 rounds in a very short package.

For those not familiar with the 45 ACP round, generally with very heavy bullets and pistol length barrels it is a subsonic round, so assuming this long barrel in not long enough to get it supersonic then fitting a suppressor would make this a very powerful and relatively quiet weapon.

All the more so because the grenade launcher is something special too.

It is actually a very old grenade launcher originally issued to special forces only and is a muzzle loaded weapon that fires very long 30mm grenades.

Inside the pistol grip of the grenade launcher there is a magazine for a stack of cartridges for the silent pistol PSS. The rounds basically contain a piston with a propellent charge behind it so when fired, the gas expands extending the piston forward violently. The piston cannot exit the cartridge case however and the propellent gas and smoke and flash are contained inside the thick walled cartridge.

The recoil is violent enough to thrust the 30mm grenade out the front at fairly high speed for a grenade... it reaches about 500m.

This all means that likely a special forces operator will have a 45 cal SMG with suppressor plus a 30mm grenade launcher that is also suppressed... pretty ideal for sneaking around not being noticed.

You can read more about the AKS-74U-UBN with the BS-1 "Tishina" 30mm suppressed grenade launcher and its 30mm HE-DP grenade here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/aks-74u-e.html (it is dual purpose because it has a shaped charge HE frag warhead). Its primary use was for attacking fuel stations/storage by lobbing HE shaped charge grenades... the shaped charge for penetrating containers/pressurised containers of fuel before igniting the contents.

That magazine

I know... it doesn't even stick down as far as the pistol grip yet holds 40 rounds of ammo... in 45ACP!

I mean they only get about 7 rounds of that stuff in pistol magazines!

I am thinking it would be a very good goat gun, without the grenade launcher of course...

The question becomes, what sort of use will this weapon be.

It uses grenades that are only used by the Russian special forces, and a submachine gun using American ammo that is not used in Russia widely.

In many ways this weapon is a replacement for the AKS-74U with BS-1 attachment... it probably has similar practical performance... actually it probably has much better performance in terms of SMG performance because the AKS-74U with a suppressor and subsonic ammo in 5.45mm probably has rather mediocre performance... an 80 grain bullet at subsonic speeds is probably less effective than high velocity .22LR in some respects.

With the very short barrel of the AKS-74U there is an issue with effective range and accuracy despite the use of an assault rifle cartridge.

I would suspect the next step in the attempts to use suppressed ammo with a grenade launcher could be said to be Groza, with 9 x 39mm subsonic bullets and a muzzle loaded grenade launcher the only problem there is the unsuppressed grenade launcher, but then it shouldn't be much of a problem to fit the BIS-1 to the rifle.

Equally the newer ADS can use a range of different ammo types and with its built in grenade launcher could also perform the role.

But clearly this new weapon has been developed to use a standard and widely available round for presumably specialist use... I suspect the space around the 45 cal barrel is because a suppressor is standard issue for this weapon, which suggests it is specialist equipment.

So for military police arriving at a burning storage facility they find empty 45 cal shell casings and dead security personal with rifling marks indicating they were shot with weapons with the same rifling marks as 45 colt pistols and up to 500m from where the shell casings were found is where the fire started that destroyed the oil storage facility... Nobody heard anything till the fire started.

In terms of sneaky beak use the 45 calibre has the advantages that the standard round is already subsonic, and uses a large diameter heavy projectile which maximises its terminal effect while remaining subsonic. It is not a standard Russian round, but is easily available in a range of ammo types that are relatively cheap and plentiful... Russian ammo makers make it for export and domestic commercial use so it is easy to come by and you can use foreign brands to redirect attention from its use.

The 9 x 39mm is a larger and heavier round and is not exactly cheap though with recon units using AS and VSS weapons it is fairly widely used now in Russian units so it is not exactly rare.

With a 40 shot mag it would be a very useful weapon though it does look rather large for its calibre... I suspect it might be part of a weapon family that includes assault rifle calibre weapons which make a smaller design less practical.

Certainly if I was me personally I would go for a 7.62 x 39mm calibre weapon because the ammo is cheap and easy to come by, the subsonic version with 193 grain bullets is rather more effective than the 5.45mm 80 grain subsonic bullets while when being quiet is no longer an issue the supersonic 122 grain bullets are more effective than the subsonic bullets in the 45ACP and 9 x 39mm ammo alternatives.

40 round box mags in 7.62 x 39mm are very long however...

From Denis Mokrushin's Blog Twower

Modernization of the Kalashnikov

September 28, 12:36

There are some details on the expected (?) Modernization of Kalashnikov rifles in the army: Izhevsk. September 28. Interfax-AVN - The chief designer of "Izhmash" Vladimir Zlobin at a meeting of the Interagency Working Group under the Military-Industrial Commission on Thursday presented four options for upgrading the AK-74 Cost of the solutions proposed by the plant, ranging from 2 to 10 thousand rubles, depending on complexity of implementation and integration of the machine. Press-service of JSC "NPO" Izhmash "reported Friday that in its simplest form, which can be implemented in the workshops of military units, the AK-74 will get the side bar and forearm straps with Picatinny. "This will give the ability to set collimator, optical and electron optical sights, with lateral base "dovetail" and will transition with the bracket kit to install a bar Picatinny. Replacement forend make possible the installation of an infrared illuminator with laser designator, range finder and front grip " - to be confirmed in a statement. in advanced upgrade options, which can be realized in the factory, the AK-74 ready to equip handguard with Picatinny strap, front folding handle telescopic butt, the ergonomic pistol grip and a magazine with visual control of ammunition. Following the meeting, the working group decided to test the sample configuration as wide as it meets all the requirements and provides a guarantee of product quality, according to the press office. "Izhmash" present the specimen in TSNIITOCHMASH in late October - early November, after which a final decision on the need for modernization of the army amount of AK-74 " - sums up the message. Earlier, referring to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin stated that the Russian Armed Forces will receive kits for self-upgrading of the AK-74. "In early October, I guess to show the Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, a modified AK-74" - then said Rogozin. According to him, this weapon is lethal and extremely reliable. "The problem was the same: that it is not good to hang sight, laser pointer, thermal sight," - said Deputy Prime Minister. He explained that he will be presented in three versions that will not alter the existing weapons in the armed forces, and to send kits to retrofit the machine itself in military units. "It's a simple assembly. Unnecessary details are discarded, new improving, and the machine actually get a new class," - stressed Rogozin. believe that next year (or 2014) expect bulk purchases sights, thermal imaging and collimators for it ZHZHZH with modernization on purpose.

(Google Translate)

]http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/news/AK-74_mod.jpg Link to The proposed modernized AK-74M by Izmash.
I guess this pretty much means the AK-12 won't be adopted by regular forces. Hopefully the AK-12 has a future with special forces and police.

Nothings set in stone yet, we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for the link, their proposed upgrade looks a lot like the AK-200 they were trying to get adopted back in 2011.

If you look back through this thread a little you will see after a splash across the news about the Russian Army having 17 million Kalashnikovs in storage, that it was later admitted that a lot of them are old and obsolete and not in particularly good condition.

When asked about them I believe it was Rogozin himself that said something along the lines of some are too far gone and will be discarded, some will be patched up and passed on to other services, and the remainder that is worth keeping will get an upgrade.

This sounds like they are deciding on their upgrade.

I rather suspect that the end result will be that all Russian servicemen will get upgraded AK-74s, but special forces and elite forces and high priority units will likely at least get to test the AK12, and I think that where they get the choice they will choose it over any other ugrade.

Obviously for units in the middle of Sibera that currently have AKMs, when they get their new upgraded rifles they might also be issued with telescopic sights, and standard Russian torches issued to soldiers might be adapted so they can be attached to pic rails on the rifles too, but I doubt they will go from AKMs to AK12s with thermal sights and high power Cree type 400m range LED torches and laser sights.

For the vast majority of soldiers around the world just a simple sight is all that is needed and lasers and torches are just extra unnecessary weight.

For a spec ops guy the AK12 with calibre kits and replacement barrels will be what they have been waiting for.

Especially if the barrels have suppressors fitted and a range of barrels are available like heavy barrels for accuracy etc, or even barrels with rifling optimised for special ammo.

Link to The proposed modernized AK-74M by Izmash.

As expected it is just a standard AK-74 with a new buttstock, new pistol grip, new top cover, and new forward upper and lower stocks. The buttstock is length adjustable and foldable, the top cover has pic rails, as do the front two upper and lower stocks and the pistol grip is reshaped to be more comfortable.

The only actual change to the original rifle (apart from the parts I mentioned, which are basically just swapped out) is that there appears to be a hinge attachment near the rear iron sight for the top cover to make it more rigid for the rails on top of it.

Thanks for the link, their proposed upgrade looks a lot like the AK-200 they were trying to get adopted back in 2011.

Actually most of those AK-200 models were just AKs with American after market crap added.

The real AK-200 has a balanced recoil mechanism and looks like this:

The PKP isn't actually all that light, and the ammo is slightly heavier than 7.62 x 51mm too.

The lesson they learned is that the extra weight is worth carrying because of the extra punch and range it offers.

The development of the LMG in the Soviet and Russian army is quite a ride... at the end of WWII they had the RP46 which was a 7.62 x 54Rmm calibre machine gun with a removable barrel and the capacity to take the pan magazines of the DP27 and DPM machineguns or a standard belt feed. (DPM=The Soviet equivalent of the Bren gun). It was replaced by the RPD with a fixed barrel and 7.62 x 39mm ammo in a 100 round belt feed, which in turn was replaced with the RPK which was bascially a heavy barrel AKM with a bipod and 40 round mags. The change in calibre created the RPK-74 with a folding stock and a 45 round box mag and 5.45mm calibre. They looked at belt fed versions but the RPK-74 was simple and reliable and had better reach... to 500m or so.

Experience however made them realise that the PKM provided better reach and power, so they developed a new model that didn't need extra barrels and the result is the PKP with many of the PKMs problems eliminated... looks pretty cool too.

I'd say the only real difference between the rifle SWAT Pointman showed and the one you showed is a whole lot of tacti-crap and a balanced recoil mechanism.

Well they are pretty much both based on the same rifle... and there was nothing fundamentally wrong with that.

All it needed is pretty clear from the proposed upgrades... improved ease of fitting crap like scopes, laser, torches, and front pistol grips, and the option to adjust the length of the buttstock are the main things it really needed.

Of course the side rail scope mount and clip on grenade launcher lugs was all it had and all it really needs for most soldiers, but the new rail mounts allow a much wider variety of weapons and equipment to be attached easily.

Other than that the AK-200s balanced recoil mechanism wont be that easy to fit to existing AKs so I rather expect if that becomes the focus they will likely buy AK12s instead if they are prepared to spend that sort of money.

The primary difference is the balanced recoil mechanism... which does not impress most westerners, but for the Russians who tend to use automatic bursts more often it will be a significant change.

I have read that it does make the weapon a bit more complicated and much less fool proof... you can't really put a stripped down AK back together in a way that will make it not work.

Of course with the FN FAL it is possible to put the plug at the end of the piston tube in upside down so the gas system doesn't work and you have a manually operated rifle...

Compared to the M249, it's fairly light. While I never fired the PKP, I think it's probably one of the best .30 caliber machine guns.