Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.

The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

sepheronx wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.

The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.

The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

Yes the AK-15 was offered at the IPSC Euro-Champ at 1K Euro. It was also part of the event since Izhmash was one of the major Sponsors. Personally, this gun is stunning. It deserves better, has really a lot of potential and Izhmash shows to every doubter (Including me) that they can do a solid 'westernized' product with totally different values and at a far lesser cost. Was the RUB still at 38 vs. USD, the price would probably be less competitive (still VERY competitive), but now at 60K RUB for that rifle thanks to the exchange rate, the gun is a bargain...for the commoner outside Russia (yeah that exchange rate) and the US (yeah that idiotic ban).

The other issue however is the militarization of that. Maybe the gun we see will be tweaked in order to have both the balanced action and the sturdy "upper" of the AK12. This gun can potentially solve the ZID/KC headache. And once again ZID might lose the match.

Werewolf wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.

The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

Yes the AK-15 was offered at the IPSC Euro-Champ at 1K Euro. It was also part of the event since Izhmash was one of the major Sponsors. Personally, this gun is stunning. It deserves better, has really a lot of potential and Izhmash shows to every doubter (Including me) that they can do a solid 'westernized' product with totally different values and at a far lesser cost. Was the RUB still at 38 vs. USD, the price would probably be less competitive (still VERY competitive), but now at 60K RUB for that rifle thanks to the exchange rate, the gun is a bargain...for the commoner outside Russia (yeah that exchange rate) and the US (yeah that idiotic ban).

The other issue however is the militarization of that. Maybe the gun we see will be tweaked in order to have both the balanced action and the sturdy "upper" of the AK12. This gun can potentially solve the ZID/KC headache. And once again ZID might lose the match.

There is the problem... inferiority complex strikes again

Werewolf wrote:Not a single of those points is different from AK-74M/AK-12 or AEK-971/973.

It is light, accurate, responsive, high controllability due the low recoil due to the use of muzzle break and they are cheaper than anything from the west.

sepheronx wrote:Any new news on the assault rifle section for Russia?

Russian - world champion in practical shooting
New gun "Kalashnikov" has helped our athletes to win victory



Russian athletes with the new "Saiga 12" execution of 340 performed well at the world championships in practical shooting, which took place from 13 to 19 September in the Italian city of Anya. Concern "Kalashnikov" was one of the sponsors of the championship.

For the first time absolute world champion in open class was the Russian team, which included arrows team practical shooting "Rostec - Kalashnikov" Vsevolod Ilyin, Ramadan Mubarak and Andrew Kirisenko and Roman Halitov. Second place went to the Czech national team, bronze winner was the team of Germany.

"Gold" in the standings won the participant teams, "Kalashnikov Ladies' Alain Karelin. Silver prize winner in the individual competition for men was the Russian Roman Halitov, and the bronze medal in women won Natalia Rumyantsev from "Lady Kalashnikov." In dueling standings champion title went to participants of national teams' Lady Kalashnikov "and" Rostec - Kalashnikov "Mary Schwartz and Vsevolod Ilyin.

"The development of shooting sports in the world is an important priority for the group as one of the world's largest producers of small arms, - the general director of concern" Kalashnikov "Alexei Krivoruchko. - How do manufacturers of a wide range of civilian small arms, we are glad that athletes confidently take prizes, speaking with rifles Izhevsk production. We wish them new triumphs in the upcoming tournaments and competitions. "

In total, Russian athletes won 12 world championship medals, including 4 gold, 5 silver and 3 bronze. In total in the championship competitions involved 600 athletes from more than 25 countries.

http://rostec.ru/news/4517227

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?



Original video:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?



Original video:

ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

PapaDragon wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?



Original video:

ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

Thanks man! I been waiting for ages to get that into.

+1  for you dude!

I had no idea you can silence LMG, cool!

PapaDragon wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?



Original video:

ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

Thanks man! I been waiting for ages to get that into.

+1  for you dude!

I had no idea you can silence LMG, cool!

GarryB wrote:The amusing thing is that the west will claim this is a copy of the FN Minimi... the irony being at the end of WWII the Soviets put into service a light machine gun with a removable barrel, and dual feed... it could take belts and it could take the round drums previously used on Soviet light machine guns like the DP and DPM.

The RP46 was in 7.62 x 54mm calibre so it even has the advantage of better range and lethality over the current crop of LMGs... with the exception of the PKP also in 7.62 x 54mm.

GarryB wrote:Well the real point is that the Soviets and Russians have already been through this... they had the full rifle calibre machine gun calibre LMG with drums or belts with a removable barrel in the RP-46, which they replaced in service with the belt fed assault rifle calibre fixed barrel RPD, and when they changed to the AKM they went to the RPK magazine fed LMG with a fixed barrel and the RPK-74 when they went to the smaller calibre weapons.

Now they have the PKP in the full power rifle calibre machine gun round and the RPK-74... the RPK is lighter and takes the same ammo and can use standard magazines or larger capacity mags but lacks the range and power of the PKP.

Over medium ranges the RPK is excellent and from what I have read rather accurate, while the PKP has lots of punch and range though it is not light... the weapon or the ammo.

The advantage of the 6x49mm rounds is that a lighter weapon could be developed that has more range and hitting power with the ammo being lighter too... perhaps the new ammo box is for the 6x49mm calibre rounds.

GarryB wrote:

Exactly why I don't get the Tokar. SUpposedly is uses 5.45...what for?

Well unless they have suddenly become very stupid... which I rather doubt... I would think that the weapon with a new ammo box that is larger would suggest a new calibre.

Designing if for 5.45mm calibre and then beefing it up to 6x49mm calibre offers the potential for a lighter weapon than if they just scaled down a PKM... especially if the mechanism is a push through system like a 5.45mm weapon could use and a rimmed cartridge PKM could not.

there is a reason there are no in service 5.56 or 5.45mm gatling guns because the ammo was designed for short range...

I suspect they realise that a small light replacement for an RPK in a smaller calibre would only make sense in 6 x 49mm as 5.45mm lacks range and power, while 7.62 x 54mm is too heavy and powerful to create  a small light portable weapon...

In that photo with the larger magazine... does the barrel look longer than normal?

That would be a hint to me that they might be changing to 6x49mm.

Of course then again I would think that a LMG would be better based on the AK12, but then this weapon is a ZID weapon so it is really an AEK-xxx... or should that be RPEK-xxx...

Well if the US can 'PE' the M240, I don't see why the Russians couldn't do that. Even the poles have made the PKM lighter. And then as you said.

I would say the PKP is already optimised for LMG use even if it is a little on the heavy side with ammo.