Ground Troops Air Defense (PVO)

I thought it might be that, but the new Coalition also has flat panels beside the gun too and they certainly are not for IFF use...

I'm not sure, what those antennas on Koalitsiya-SV are. Good question for someone from artillery.





But IFF antenna on Derivatsiya-PVO is the same as that on Sosna-R.

Why drive in PanzirM and TorM inactive through the area? Why are these units not active in driving even? Can this please tell me? Is not that possible? Does the radar do not work while driving?

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Why drive in PanzirM and TorM inactive through the area? Why are these units not active in driving even? Can this please tell me? Is not that possible? Does the radar do not work while driving?

Tor can be active while driving and also it can fire missiles. Why it is not done, i don't know. I'm not sure about Pantsir.

Driving with the radar going illuminates your location to enemy assets including potential HATO assets hundreds of kms away trying to find you.

With their radars off they can still receive radar information about the airspace around then via other platforms, and they can still detect targets optically without revealing their positions.

GarryB wrote:Driving with the radar going illuminates your location to enemy assets including potential HATO assets hundreds of kms away trying to find you.

With their radars off they can still receive radar information about the airspace around then via other platforms, and they can still detect targets optically without revealing their positions.

The S300 or S400 at 100km distance gives me no drone at 200m height which I can fight in the journey.

Should the NATO quietly search these systems. It is still better to have these systems active during the march.

Also, I see two or three TorM in colone. Why do not them protect the troop parts alone?

The BukM also drive through the area without TorM or PanzirM protection. I do not understand that.

What is the purpose of that? These are all three front Sam systems. Especially TorM1 / 2 always, no matter what happens, always will be full ready.

It's way too expensive and there are too few of them to drive inactive through the area. It should always protect the rear units in a 15km chain.

Such systems may never be left back. I really can not understand this task. A the tank or truck etc. That's ok but not at 25 million US dollars hightec what NATO is only so waiting to create the thing out of the country. Really, I do not understand anything anymore.

All the Buks I saw were older systems. Remember the Russian Army is supposed to replace Buk with Buk M3.

The Russian military does not seem to be deploying AWACS, EW, air superiority fighters or its air defense systems significantly. It has S-300/400 coverage everywhere mind you

The Baykatyr strikes, if they were real, seem to have been done from a very low altitude.

As for why Russia is not deploying all its assets, probably doesn't want to give anything away to NATO.

That Romanian MiG-21 which was escorting the Ukrainian fighter back to its airspace crashed though. As did the helicopter that went looking for it. Due to 'bad weather'. Even though the weather seemed OK at the time.

The S300 or S400 at 100km distance gives me no drone at 200m height which I can fight in the journey.

Very true, but airborne radar like A-50 should have a good view of the battlefield as well, plus optics often work better for detecting and tracking small drones anyway.

Should the NATO quietly search these systems. It is still better to have these systems active during the march.

There will be more than a single vehicle in each column and only one would need its radar operating to find targets and pass that target data on to the other air defence vehicles.

There will also be air defence vehicles working further back that can scan for targets and hand off target data to other platforms.

Also, I see two or three TorM in colone. Why do not them protect the troop parts alone?

These systems can hit targets 16km away, do you think they will all sit together in a nice group all with radar scanning?

The BukM also drive through the area without TorM or PanzirM protection. I do not understand that.

Who said they are on their own and not working with other platforms?

The Russian military does not seem to be deploying AWACS, EW, air superiority fighters or its air defense systems significantly.

And what do you expect these assets to be doing?

Launching S-400s from 400kgs distant to shoot down a hand sized drone approaching Russian forces?

That's the way it has to be. And the 24/7 full operation. Here it is done right. The first time where it can be seen in the operation.
https://t.me/milinfolive/77984

But their might be 4 TOR vehicles operating in that convoy... they don't all need their search radar going... the other video you see might be of the other vehicles getting search radar data from another vehicle in the column.

Not many people understand IADS it seems Garry

Nor do they comprehend how SACLOS missiles work , or the difference between search and tracking radars

Good example. At least 2 Tor-M2 systems in a convoy. One is using his surveillance radar.

Arkanghelsk wrote:Not many people understand IADS it seems Garry

Nor do they comprehend how SACLOS missiles work , or the difference between search and tracking radars

You haven't provided any explanation either about IADS or how SACLOS missiles work.

The Roselectronics holding of the Rostec state corporation for the first time presented at the Army-2023 forum an updated modification of the Polyana-D4M1 automated command and control system (ACS) for troops. The holding announced this on its website on August 14.

The complex during the special operation provides communication between the Aerospace Forces and the Russian Navy.

“The development allows you to simultaneously pair up to 14 objects, provides protection for an area of ​​​​800 by 800 km, while up to 500 air objects can be located in the airspace of the responsibility zone at the same time,” the holding said.

Previously, the system controlled air defense systems of the air defense forces of long (S-300), medium (Buk type) and short (Tor and Tunguska types) range through command posts.

The upgraded Polyana-D4M1 provides for the collection and processing of data from digital radar stations of various ranges, ground and air based, as well as from air traffic control centers.

It provides training for combat crews and duty, and in wartime, fire control of subordinate units based on data received from radar reconnaissance equipment. The reaction time of the system to open fire is two to three seconds.

“The modernized Polyana-D4M1 is the latest promising system-forming complex of a multi-element combat information system,” said Sergey Sakhnenko, General Director of the United Instrument-Making Corporation (the managing organization of the Ruselectronics holding).

The complex is located on four vehicles and consists of a command post, a command and control vehicle and two mobile power plants.

https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1558649/2023-08-14/obnovlennuiu-sistemu-upravleniia-poliana-pokazali-na-armii-2023?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

NOTE: It is my understanding one of these units exists for each Combined Arms Army and PVO division.

Interesting stat coming from Viktor Murakhovsky

https://t.me/Viktor_Murakhovskiy/496

Of all the drones shot down during the SVO, 2/3 were shot down by means of "Tor-M1/M2U/M2".

Which suggests shorter ranged mini missiles for TOR are overdue and will be very useful.

caveat emptor wrote:Interesting stat coming from Viktor Murakhovsky
https://t.me/Viktor_Murakhovskiy/496
Of all the drones shot down during the SVO, 2/3 were shot down by means of "Tor-M1/M2U/M2".

Although it is expensive as a system, it is the best anti-aircraft system in the world. Life insurance for every Russian soldier.

They should finally massively expand production and also equip every ship with it. Even the little rocket boats! Without a TOR you have no chance on the battlefield. Not after this development of the war!

The M2DT variant offers itself as an expansion stage. A trailer with the "old" 16x Tor missiles and a second one with 32 smaller anti-drone missiles.

This must be given top priority in all national and military defense plans. The PanzirM system is good but not good enough. It's ok for export and area defense, but only TOR guarantees protection for high value facilities and troops. Especially from ships, bridges, etc.!

I think TOR and Pantsir overlap, there is room for both systems, I would like to see an improved TOR with four AESA arrays on the front and back and sides of the vehicle... there would be no need for a turret with four large AESA radar arrays as the full 360 degree airspace could be scanned electronically without moving or turning so remove the turret and replace it with a built up super structure with AESA antenna arrays on each face and the internal volume could be filled with missiles... full sized ones in the centre where the turret ring was with the full sized 16km range missiles... 16 would fit in there and in front of and behind the turret ring above the engine at the rear and the crew compartment at the front you could fit the new shorter missiles that fit 32 missiles into the space the 16 old missiles fitted so in theory you might get 32 missiles behind the turret ring and 32 missiles in front of the turret ring for a total of 64 small missiles and 16 longer ranged original sized missiles, or a total of 80 missiles.

The smaller lighter missiles might only reach 5-6km but could take down drones and munitions fired at the vehicle or nearby troops, while the bigger missiles can take on more serious threats like aircraft and cruise missiles and glide bombs and artillery rockets.

The Pantsir with its missiles with 20km or up to 35-40km range plus its four pack shorter range mini missiles for drones or threats detected at greater ranges than the TOR could reach together with 30mm cannon with airburst shells making the guns vastly more effective against drones and you really have the backbone for serious air defence.

A vehicle like the 2S38 with a 57mm AA gun with airburst and guided shells and perhaps a smaller lighter vehicle like Tigr or Typhoon with a 30mm turret with airburst shells or that new 23mm gun turret with air burst shells with radar and EO sensors would be excellent for anti drone use.

When shooting at a small elusive target at range with a gun firing single projectiles you either hit or you miss and at useful distances like 1-2km you more often miss than hit, but if you can accurately range the target and determine what direction and speed it is flying you can calculate where it will be in the time it would take for your shells to arrive.

With 23mm HE shells at 2km that might be 3-4 seconds so the speed of the target keep traveling in its current direction at its current speed in 3-4 seconds time will be here... X... now it might slow down a little or it might speed up so that adds an X before or ahead of that X and of course the target might decide at the instant you fire to start a turn left or right or to climb or descend... now if it does any of those things then that creates a box based on the flight limits of the target as to where that drone might be in the 3-4 seconds of flight time of your cannon shells... now inside that 3D box the number of cannon shells you can pump in to is limited by the amount of ammo you have and the rate of fire of your guns... it is no accident that Kashtan has two 6 barrel 30mm cannons firing 5,000 rounds per minute per gun.. 10,000 x 30mm cannon shells means about 166 shells per second blowing past that target box... but with airburst ammo you don't need so many shells because as your shells enter the box you can detonate them and send thousands of splinters massively increasing your chances of a hit.

You don't just need direct contact any more... getting close is good enough but the really important thing is that with a timer fuse like you have on the western AHEAD rounds you have to predict the future and guess what the target is going to do in 3-4 seconds or more after your shell leaves your gun.

With command detonation shells you can track the target and watch and then when your shell gets as close as it is going to get you can send the command to detonate at the optimal point in flight... so when you open fire a very slow moving drone might have a target box that is 50m long but 40m wide and 40m high... for something supersonic the box might be over 1 km long and wide and high... but being able to command detonate your rounds you can detonate them in a cluster in the best possible place.... you can't steer them... but you can detonate them early so the target flys into the fragments or gets hit by the fragments before the round flys past.

Command detonation shells would also be good for hitting targets on the ground.... imagine an M113 in front of you and you can tell from your drone that it has opened its rear ramp door and troops are pouring out the back... lase the front of the vehicle and add 4 metres and fire above the top of the vehicle so your rounds skim over top and explode behind the APC and directly above the troops getting out of the vehicle... then switch belts to APHE and fire a burst into the front of the vehicle to take it out.

On the new Mi-28NM they have a 30mm cannon so its radar and EO optics should allow it to engage drones from the air with airburst shells too.

An important factor when shooting at drones... bullets fired into the air don't evaporate... so swinging a PKM or a Kord HMG let alone a 23mm or 30mm cannon and firing a burst of shells at a drone... even the rounds that hit will go straight through most of the time and several kms away those rounds are going to land on the ground, which is very dangerous.

Airburst rounds are not only much more effective and efficient, but also much safer for your own troops and civilians nearby in peace time and in war.

A Shilka might fire thousands of 23mm cannon rounds at a target 2km away that is as small as a drone and still not get a direct hit because the helicopters and aircraft they are designed to hit are much larger. With airburst shells and a proper ballistics computer and accurate ranging and tracking of your shells and the target might mean a twin gun mount might fire a burst of 3-6 shells per barrel to ensure a kill on a drone.

Against an attack helicopter or aircraft like the A-10 air burst shells are not so effective in such small calibres because their armour would protect them from such small splinters... you would need a 57mm calibre airburst or bigger to use against bigger aircraft, but for a drone they would likely be shattered by even 23mm airburst shells.

As I keep mentioning a 40mm grenade launcher command detonated air burst shell would be amazing because it would enable air targets to be engaged but also it would be very effective for engaging a range of ground targets too.

The latest Gibka-S anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMs) entered service in December 2023 with the motorized rifle brigade of the combined Arms Army of the Central Military District (CVO) stationed in the Samara Region.

The delivery of equipment made it possible to completely re-equip the brigade's air defense unit with modern anti-aircraft missile systems.

The complex is capable of resisting all modern means of air attack flying at low and extremely low altitudes at any time of the day and in conditions of limited visibility. It is mounted on the chassis of the Tiger-M armored car, equipped with reconnaissance equipment and an automated control system that is part of the unified tactical control system. The capabilities of Gibki-S allow you to conduct round-the-clock air defense combat duty and control missile launches in real time.

https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12494452@egNews

These unguided missiles with IR sensor are basically useless against drones with electric engines. Someone needs to revamp the whole concept.

They have the Sosna-R system that guide the missile with its laser and finds the target optically.

They need to widespread its use.

It is effective against anything, even ground based targets and doesn't emit anything.

Actually doesn't the latest Gibka-S also carry anti tank missiles like Shturm and Ataka which could be command guided towards even the smallest drone?

I believe the anti aircraft models of those missiles even have a laser proximity fuse... so while Sosna would be great, this would also be useful... especially in more open terrain.

Also...

These unguided missiles with IR sensor are basically useless against drones with electric engines. Someone needs to revamp the whole concept.

The newest missiles are better terms optically guided which means electric engines and cardboard skin wont save drones from these missiles.

I would presume it is compatible with Igla-S and Verba and Label.

lancelot wrote:These unguided missiles with IR sensor are basically useless against drones with electric engines. Someone needs to revamp the whole concept.

Russian soldiers shot down large number of drones like Leleka-100, Furia, etc with Igla, Verba and Strela-10. They could not shot down such small drones as DJI Mavic, but for them, they have other equipment to deal.

These unguided missiles with IR sensor

They have an IR sensor, this means they are guided.