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Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°76

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Mon May 29, 2023 2:41 pm

As far as I could understand neither klimov nor kamov or the manufacturer of the Kazan Ansat were anymore interested in the turboshaft version of the VK-800. Possibly also because it was a lot oversized for both the Kazan Ansat and the Ka-226.

I see that engine more of interest for an unmanned aircraft however.

The baikal is also smaller than the An-2,so the Vk-800 is perfect for it (and also for the new twin to replace the L-410).

By the way, 2 years ago they were also speaking about the prototype of the UTS-800, another potential aircraft trainer, that would have been powered by one VK-800 turboprop engine.

https://vpk.name/en/535763_demonstration-of-a-promising-uts-800-training-aircraft-at-the-army-2021-forum.html

I do not know if both yak-152 and UTS-800 make sense.

Probably that had been discussed because of the problems with the diesel engine of the yak-152 and the lack (at that time) of a smaller turboprop that could be used on it.

What Russia needs now is not 2 basic trainers, but an intermediate trainer with a single engine turbofan, to be used after the yak-152 and before the yak-130.

Basically an equivalent of the L-39 or or the Italian M-345 (Which is used as intermediate trainer before the Italian pilots go on the M-346 (the Italian copy/parallel development of the Yak-130).

GarryM wrote:The VK-1600V is for the Ka-62...

Yes, the 1400 hp VK-1600V (takeoff power, with up to 1750 hp in emergency mode) is for the Ka-62, replacing the French engines.
Furthermore as posted in the other thread there is also a turboprop version planned and in the official presentation from 2 years ago also the plans for a 1200 hp derated version of the turboprop VK-1600S (to replace the 1100 hp Honeywell turboprop used on the SibNIA An-2 modernisation) were shown.

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lancelot

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Post n°77

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm

There is a design. The KB SAT SR-10. The Russian government just needs to give them an AL-55 engine so they can modify the prototype so the design can use that engine instead of the obsolete AL-25 it currently uses. And fund its serial production.

Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft - Page 4 Image53

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°78

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Mon May 29, 2023 8:27 pm

lancelot wrote:There is a design. The KB SAT SR-10. The Russian government just needs to give them an AL-55 engine so they can modify the prototype so the design can use that engine instead of the obsolete AL-25 it currently uses. And fund its serial production.

Yeah but till now no news.

Last November (2022) Maxim Mironov, General Director of the Modern Aviation Technologies Design Bureau (SAT), announced that the SR-10 aircraft project was frozen but that they only wait a managerial decision in order to prepare the aircraft for serial productions and that they could do that in about a year (well it did not mention it, but of course this is as long as Saturn provides them with the engine)

https://k-ur.info/novosti/dajdzhest-novostej/15558-proekt-novogo-otechestvennogo-reaktivnogo-samoleta-v-razrabotke-kotorogo-prinimalo-kamenskoe-upkb-detal-poka-zamorozhen

It would be also the only forward swept wing aircraft currently in production, which is also cool.

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GarryB

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Post n°79

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

GarryB Tue May 30, 2023 4:07 am

I do not know if both yak-152 and UTS-800 make sense.

If the Yak-152 is using the VK-600V and the UTS-800 is using the VK-800 then they should be different enough to be worth considering both shouldn't they?

My understanding was that the VK-800 was going to make the Ka-226 better at higher altitude operations with its extra power on the ground.

Just looking at the link the thing going for the UTS-800 is the engine is ready while the engine for the Yak-152 is not, but you made it sound like the VK-800 is not even going ahead with your first comment.

They are very different engines, perhaps the UTS-800 might be a light strike platform maybe, but seems very over powered for the role of prop trainer... what they probably need is a 200hp light cheap engine for the DOSAAF flight training role rather than a more powerful formula 1 hot rod.

What Russia needs now is not 2 basic trainers, but an intermediate trainer with a single engine turbofan, to be used after the yak-152 and before the yak-130.

What they need is a decent turbofan for a single engined trainer (say SR-10) and also a twin engined trainer (Yak-130) like the Al-55 or something.

Yes, the 1400 hp VK-1600V (takeoff power, with up to 1750 hp in emergency mode) is for the Ka-62, replacing the French engines.
Furthermore as posted in the other thread there is also a turboprop version planned and in the official presentation from 2 years ago also the plans for a 1200 hp derated version of the turboprop VK-1600S (to replace the 1100 hp Honeywell turboprop used on the SibNIA An-2 modernisation) were shown.

So retrofit to An-2s using foreign engines and also new versions of the An-2 to replace newer US engines... perfect.

So things are actually starting to look good for light aircraft and medium drones...

franco

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Post n°80

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

franco Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:30 pm

The General Director of PJSC Yakovlev spoke in an interview with RIA Novosti about the search for a new engine for the Yak-152 aircraft. The fact is that, before the introduction of economic sanctions against the Russian Federation, a German power unit was installed on this training model.

Now the partnership with RED Aircraft GmbH has been terminated unilaterally. But the RED A03 engine, officially presented in 2010, was developed with the money of one of the Russian holdings.

The German V-shaped diesel power unit is its main value. Plus, it is considered the most powerful engine in the world running on this type of fuel.

Now PJSC Yakovlev is urgently looking for new suppliers of engines for the Yak-152. Such aircraft are necessary for the training of pilots, primarily military ones.

There is information that several Russian companies are ready to start producing a piston engine. But first it needs to be developed. Who can do this is still kept secret.

Closest to the creation of a new engine for the Yak-152 CIAM named after P.I. Baranov. A promising APD-A demonstrator engine is already ready there. It was created on the basis of a car engine for Aurus Senat.

So far, the new engine has not been tested in the air, but the Yak-52 aircraft with it has already successfully completed jogging and even flying up.

https://bibimot-ru.translate.goog/7091-pao-jakovlev-ischet-novyj-dvigatel-dlja-uchebnyh-samoletov-jak-152.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°81

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Sat Nov 18, 2023 1:43 pm

https://aviation21.ru/ciam-podgotovil-texnicheskoe-zadanie-na-razrabotku-porshnevogo-dvigatelya-fora-500/

CIAM prepared technical specifications for the development of the FORA-500 piston engine
16.11.2023

At the Central Institute of Aviation Engine Engineering named after P.I. Baranov (CIAM), an extended meeting of the scientific and technical council was held, at which the results of the third stage of the “Circus” research work were presented. The project is aimed at improving aircraft piston engine (APE) systems for light acrobatic aircraft.

The final stage of the Tsirkach project included the refinement and testing of the demonstrator engine as part of the aircraft, as well as the development of technical specifications for carrying out development work (R&D). Within the framework of the project, CIAM collaborated with the FAU SibNIA named after. S.A. Chaplygin" and FSUE "NAMI".

CIAM analyzed the test results of the APD-A engine and, on its basis, modified and assembled the APD-A-V2 demonstrator engine. The engine has a power of up to 478 kW (650 hp), it, with a propeller with a diameter of up to 2.6 m and a moulinette*, was tested on a stand for the study of aircraft engines and power plants of aircraft with simulated acrobatic use. Ground and flight testing and testing of the APD-A-V2 as part of the Yak-52 flying laboratory were carried out at the SibNIA base in Novosibirsk.

In addition, as part of the third stage of work, the operational documentation was finalized, including a technical operation manual and maintenance regulations. A single copy of the form for the demonstrator engine APD-A-V2 No. 001 was also issued. Based on the results of the work carried out, the appearance of a promising aviation piston engine FORA-500 was created, on the basis of which a draft technical specification for the development of an APD for aircraft for various purposes was prepared, CIAM said.

The 500-horsepower engine, which CIAM, NAMI and SibNIA are working on, is extremely in demand not only for light aviation. Its appearance will make it possible to replace the German RED A03T V12 diesel engine on the Yak-152 training aircraft. Without a Russian power plant, the Yakovlev aircraft has no prospect of getting into flight schools, DOSAAF and flying clubs.

Very good, but I believe that this engine will be very important for the air force basic trainer and maybe for relatively large drones.
It would be probably overkill for flight school, DOSAAF and flight clubs,

For those a smaller and cheaper to operate 200 hp engine for an aircraft like il-103 or the proposed S7 tango. Of course for pilots that needs /wants to go into advanced aerobatic training an aircraft like the yak-152 or the su-29/su31 (a single engine Propeller airplane used in aerobatics competitions) would be great.
A slightly derated version of this new engine could be also used on the su29/su31, which now uses a 400hp
Vedeneyev M14PF 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine (which original design dated from the 1940s).

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°82

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:30 pm

https://aviation21.ru/yak-152-zavershil-gosispytaniya-na-ocheredi-importozameshhenie-dvigatelya/

The Yak-152 has completed state tests. Engine import substitution is next
01/19/2024, 13:15

The light training aircraft for the initial training of pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces Yak-152 passed factory and flight design tests, and in December 2023 the state joint tests (GST) were successfully completed. About itreportsRIA Novosti with reference to the press service of PJSC Yakovlev.

State joint tests are analogous to certification tests in civil aviation. GSI is carried out by the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense named after V.P. Chkalov. In total, three flight prototypes and two for static ones at TsAGI were involved in the tests.

During these tests, the main flight characteristics of the aircraft were confirmed. According to a company representative, the next stage in the development of the project will be the import substitution of the engine, propeller and other components of the Yak-152 with Russian analogues with their testing in the “short term”.

The Yak-152 is a two-seat, single-engine aircraft equipped with a German RED A03T V12 engine. The machine is designed to teach future pilots the basics of piloting, including takeoff, landing, maneuvering and navigation. The aircraft has excellent maneuverability and stability, making it ideal for training novice pilots.

Currently, Yakovlev is working on import substitution of the German engine and is considering two main options: modernizing the current engine based on the Russian component base or adapting the VK-650 helicopter engine developed by UEC-Klimov to the Yak-152.

When choosing domestic analogues, the company is guided by the need to preserve the already achieved flight performance characteristics of the Yak-152. At the same time, maximum unification of the placement and geometry of the hood group will be ensured, which will minimize the amount of additional testing.

Earlier, in January, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federationreportedthat the alternative training aircraft UTS-800, which is being developed at the Ural Civil Aviation Plant, is being prepared for flight tests. The plane is jogging along the runway and has made one approach.

Currently, the UTS-800 is equipped with a General Electric engine. It is planned that it will receive a VK-800SM turboprop engine. Certification of the power plant is expected at the end of 2024, the aircraft - in 2025.

If possible I would really prefer they were able to "import substitute" the RED A03T V12.

It was a very promising diesel engine developed mostly with russian money which could run either on jet-fuel, kerosene-type/diesel, or SAF.

Some of the technologies and design solutions used there maybe could be also later used in other engines (possibly including also smaller 4 cylinder engines for small aircrafts, like the Austro Diesel engine used in the diamond Da-42 (2x Austro Engine E4 (AE 300), 168 hp engines, 4 cylinder, 2 litres engine displacement, Dry weight: 186 kg) and Da-62 (2 X 180hp engines, also 4 cylinder and 2 litres).

These are the characteristics of the RED A03T V12.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170809172119/https://www.red-aircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/RED-A03.pdf

General characteristics
Type: 80° v-12 four-stroke compression-ignition piston engine
Bore: 86 mm (3.39 in)[17]
Stroke: 88 mm (3.46 in)[17]
Displacement: 374.3 cu in (6,134 cc)
Length: 1,100 mm (43 in)
Width: 850 mm (33 in)
Height: 750 mm (30 in)
Dry weight: 363 kg (800 lb) (RED A03-003/005), 357 kg (787 lb)(RED A03-102) dry.

Furthermore in 2017 there was the proposed design of a smaller V6 engine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170809172108/https://www.red-aircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/RED-A051.pdf

RED A05 300hp V6

The RED A05 is a 2017 preliminary design of a V6 engine with 3,550 cc (217 cu in) displacement, outputting 300 hp (220 kW) at takeoff at 2127 propeller RPM and 280 hp (210 kW) continuously at 1995 propeller RPM, with a 210 g/kWh (0.35 lb/(hp⋅h)) best brake specific fuel consumption.

By the way maybe Russia should try to have Germany release the engine developer.

In 2023, Vladimir Reichlin, the engine developer (and founder and owner of red aircraft engines) was convicted by the Koblenz court in Germany and sentenced to five years in prison for illegal export to Russia from 2015 to 2021 for military use in circumvention of German sanctions.

https://www.flugrevue.de/flugzeugbau/red-aircraft-motoren-nach-russland-exportiert-fuenf-jahre-haft/

Vladimir Raikhlin was born in Russia and graduated from the Kazan Aviation Institute with a degree in aircraft engine engineering. After college, he worked for some time at VAZ . In the early 2000s, he founded the RED (Raikhlin Engine Development) company in Germany
https://ru-aviation.livejournal.com/2330467.html

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lancelot

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Post n°83

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Fri Jan 19, 2024 1:31 pm

If production of the RED diesel engine was going to happen in Russia we would have heard of this work starting some time ago.
That it hasn't happened yet makes me suspect if the Yak-152 enters production it will be with a turboprop VK-650.

The turboshaft VK-650 is already being delivered in small test batches for the Ansat and Ka-226 helicopters.

The dark horse in the race is the APD-500 diesel engine based on the one used in the Aurus car. They are currently trying to convert it for aviation use.

That no serious work is being done on this engine replacement program when Russia currently faces a severe lack of pilots due to lack of training aircraft in enough numbers is kind of pathetic. They should have ordered the Russification of the RED engine the moment they decided to use it in trainer aircraft for aviation when it was selected for the Yak-152. The engine was designed by a Russian with Russian corporate funding. The fact that the production site is in Germany shouldn't matter. Russia should just claim this IP as its own and make the engine in Russia.

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°84

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:14 pm

https://aviation21.ru/o-pervom-polyote-samolyota-uts-800/

About the first flight of the UTS-800 aircraft

01/22/2024, 15:46

In the fall of 2023, at the Aramil airfield in the Sverdlovsk region, the training aircraft of the Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA) UTS-800, after completing ground training, runs on the runway and approaches, made its first flight.

The UZGA press service reported that the aircraft was piloted by factory chief pilot Alexey Yazynin, the flight mission was completed in full, all aircraft systems operated without failures, in normal mode.

“After a successful first flight, flight tests of the UTS-800 continued as scheduled. A series of flights were carried out with the landing gear and flaps retracted. The plane proved to be a stable and well-controlled machine. In subsequent flights under the program, restrictions will be gradually lifted, we will check equipment and systems, and also confirm flight performance characteristics,” commented the chief designer of the UTS-800, Dmitry Tinyakov, to the Russian Aviation website.

UTS-800 was developed by the Ural Civil Aviation Plant for the Russian Aerospace Forces. The aircraft is designed to train fighter and bomber pilots and is equipped with modern equipment, including a digital flight control system and a multifunctional display.

Currently, the UTS-800 is equipped with a General Electric H80 engine. It is planned that the aircraft will receive a VK-800SM turboprop engine. Certification of the power plant is expected at the end of 2024, the aircraft - in 2025.

The UTS-800 could be considered an analogue of the Beechcraft T-6 Texan II,of the Pilatus PC-7 or PC-9 and of the EMB 312 Tucano.
Here a link to another article from 2021
https://aviation21.ru/uts-800-uchebno-trenirovochnyj-kompleks-pervonachalnoj-podgotovki-lyotchikov/

Personally I prefer the Yak-152, but only if they manage to produce the diesel engine Red A03 independently from foreign parts.

If they have to adapt the VK-650 for it it becomes less interesting.

Maybe they could order both airplanes. UTS-800, which could be mass produced starting from end of next year and and have the Yak 152 produced after the diesel RED A03 engine is completely "Russianised".

Russia needs anyway hundreds of such aircrafts and some of those could be also used by DOSAAF.

The question I have is, what does Russia uses for the Ab initio training? Is not this one done on a simple aircraft similar to those used also by civilian schools? (I mean before moving to a basic trainer), or do they start directly with a powerful basic trainer?

GarryB

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Post n°85

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

GarryB Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:42 am

The company that funded development of that engine should own the IP rights to that engine, the fact that the designer wanted to make the engines in Germany suggests he is not much of a Russian patriot... let him sit in German jail and enjoy the benefits of living in western Europe in such a civilised country.

He might have been a good engineer but his choice in location sucks.

It seems to be a rather advanced engine so they should start making models of it and scaling it to different uses... including for larger drones that are not disposable like suicide drones are.

A variety of engine types should stimulate the production and use of light aircraft in Russia and for export to the rest of the world.

Right now Russia uses French and German and American engines... further development of new engines in Russia might lead to the rest of the world choosing to use advanced but cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate Russian engines instead.

There are some unnecessary projects.... like reverse engineering foreign engines (except the German engine), just make parts and invest in the development of the other engines being worked on and when they are ready get rid of the older engines as production allows and shift production of parts to keep those engines running to the new engines.

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Gazputin

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Post n°86

UTS-800

Gazputin Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:04 pm

one thing you do notice about this plane is that UWCA has license built lots of those Diamond DA-42 twin engine trainers

and Diamond have a trainer called the Dart which looks a lot like the UTS-800
and apparently an "upgraded" version with a 750hp turboprop ... just took to the air too

Diamond DART-750
Upgrade with the Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 turboprop engine rated at 750 hp (559 kW). The aircraft had its first flight on 12 June 2023.

( yeah you end up with a similar aerodynamic shape for most aircraft eventually)

but it is I think not a complete coincidence

I think they would rather UWCA make the trainer - and leave Yak to focus on MC-21s ... and Su-30s .... and Yak-130s

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°87

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:10 pm

GarryB wrote:There are some unnecessary projects.... like reverse engineering foreign engines (except the German engine), just make parts and invest in the development of the other engines being worked on and when they are ready get rid of the older engines as production allows and shift production of parts to keep those engines running to the new engines

That is exactly what I was thinking.

Instead of wasting resources to try to do reverse engineering of an american gas turbine engine from the sixties (for which there are already modern russian alternatives in advanced development), I would like to see some efforts in doing the same for the V 12 cylinders RED A03 diesel engine and its possible smaller derivatives (already proposed v6 engine, 300 hp) and maybe also a 4 cylinder diesel engine between 170 and 220 hp that could be used for "ab initio" training, for general aviation and for civilian flight schools.

And possibly also for a cheap light twin for training pilots in multiengine operations, instead of the foreign Da-42.

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lancelot

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Post n°88

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:15 pm

Diamond aircraft is an Austrian company. But it is owned by the Chinese and has a Chinese site as well.

Look at their corporate structure. All the CEOs are Chinese.
https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/about-diamond/why-diamond/

They are owned by Chinese company Wanfeng Aviation.
https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/about-diamond/newsroom/news/article/diamond-aircraft-group-acquired-by-wanfeng-aviation-industry/
http://wfhkgy.com/en/about.php

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Post n°89

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

TMA1 Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:32 pm

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/germany-axes-russian-air-forces-yak-130-aircraft-moscow/amp/

lol... probably the most cringe inducing defense article ever written. And no I did not make a mistake posting the article here. They frequently call the new turboprop trainer the yak-130.

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Post n°90

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:25 pm

"While it is unclear how many units of the German engines Russia acquired and if all the Yak-130s produced so far use the same power plant, reports suggest that Russian industry is working on a homegrown piston engine."

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Isos

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Post n°91

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Isos Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:41 pm

Russia has a real problem because of its choice to buy foreign engines both for its planes and ships. Denying this is absurd.

You can discuss the level of dependance and the ongoing solutions but their problems exist and are still impacting them badly.

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lancelot

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Post n°92

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:44 pm

Isos wrote:Russia has a real problem because of its choice to buy foreign engines both for its planes and ships. Denying this is absurd.

You can discuss the level of dependance and the ongoing solutions but their problems exist and are still impacting them badly.

The Yak-130 uses Al-222 turbofans. Not piston engines. I was laughing at them mixing up the Yak-130 with Yak-152. These journalists don't have a clue.

The Al-222 turbofans are now made in Russia. No longer imported from Ukraine.

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Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°93

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:08 am

TMA1 wrote:https://www.eurasiantimes.com/germany-axes-russian-air-forces-yak-130-aircraft-moscow/amp/

lol... probably the most cringe inducing defense article ever written. And no I did not make a mistake posting the article here. They frequently call the new turboprop trainer the yak-130.

Quite a bit of mistakes in that article anyway. They even call the yak-130 an intermediate trainer... It is an advanced trainer. The MiG-UTS will be an intermediate trainer.

Also, in the title of the article they say:, Russia struggle to replace the engine... Actually of the UAC Deputy General Director for Civil Aviation, General Director of Yakovlev PJSC Andrey Boginsky says:

We are looking for opportunities: partners for import substitution of the German engine, who could start producing the engine. There are several Russian companies that are ready to take on this work

This means they are not starting from scratch and they should be able to do it. Probably they have all the design and technical documentation of the engine anyway.
Maybe they need to build and design specific tools for some engine component, but that could be done, given enough time.

And after that they will have a modern serie of efficient diesel aeronautic engines for civil aviation.

I believe one of the industrial partner could be the Voronezh Mechanical Plant, as they are already building piston engines for aircrafts like the Vedeneyev M-14P nine-cylinder radial engine, 270 kW (360 hp), which is used in the Yak-52, on the Su-26 aerobatic aircraft, and in many others (there is also a version of this engine with is a 400 hp (298 kW), the M14PF).

Maybe the process can still last a few years, so I believe that Russia will buy also some UTS-800, since that can probably start serial production at the end of 2025.

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TMA1

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Post n°94

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

TMA1 Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:22 am

Yeah that article was shockingly bad and quite amusing to read.

Also Russia is given a lot of flack but remember they legit wantsd peace and to work with other MICs to make their own defense equipment and to do joint ventures in selling to foreign buyers.Russian elites wanted to be part of the european economies and I think the false peace of the post Soviet era blinded many. Also there were genuine power factions in europe at the time which wished to work with Russia. I think Russians largely see themselves as western and did not want to embrace their byzantine uniqueness. To be the mighty bridge between east and west. The current events have made it abundantly clear thry need to be self sufficient and look eastward.

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Post n°95

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jan 24, 2024 1:30 am

Isos wrote:Russia has a real problem because of its choice to buy foreign engines both for its planes and ships. Denying this is absurd

When the yak-152 was created there was no modern piston engine produced in Russia. The only other possibility would have been to use the older radial M14P engine, but it has not the desired power (and it is anyway much less advanced and much more "thirsty" then the RedA03).

It is a pity that Vladimir Raikhlin did not develop and produce his engine directly in Russia, but maybe at that time he thought it would have been simpler to do it in Germany and that it had access to better tools and technology.

Maybe without that Russia, instead of spending the money to finance the engine development, would have just decided to decrease its requirement and build instead of thr yak-152 something like the Hongdu Yakovlev CJ-7 (L-7) a Chinese (but yakovlev designed) basic trainer powered by the old russian Vedeneyev M14 radial engine.

This way instead the engine has been developed properly, possibly Raikhlin also got access to German specific manufacturing technology and in a few years Russia will have a modern serie of piston engines (possible smaller 6 and 4 cylinder derivative of the Red A03) for its general aviation as well.

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lancelot

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Post n°96

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

lancelot Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:11 am

There are quite a few makers of diesel engines in Russia which could try to tackle the job. But the RED A03 engine uses quite a lot of German made components so it would likely be difficult to reproduce. That is why the engine designer made his company in Germany in the first place. To be close to the supply chain.

I have been reading on and off about issues other diesel engine makers in Russia have been having with imported components from Germany. Engine blocks, pistons, electronic injection systems, etc. The engine block replacement with ones made in Russia is doable, Russia has pretty good metallurgy, the pistons can be made in China but the industry is working on more modern replacements which can be localized, and electronic injection can sometimes be made in Russia and sometimes imported from China. But this requires substantial redesign and retesting of the engine. It takes several years. For example the metal alloys made by Russian industry aren't the same as used in Germany.

Anyway, I think the most likely thing that will happen is they will use turboprops in the initial trainers UTS-800 and Yak-152. And they will just forget about the aviation diesel. The VK-800 and VK-650 are in advanced development.

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Post n°97

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

GarryB Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:31 am

It is a pity that Vladimir Raikhlin did not develop and produce his engine directly in Russia, but maybe at that time he thought it would have been simpler to do it in Germany and that it had access to better tools and technology.

I suspect he thought being a successful engine maker in Germany would give him access to western markets including military markets with his new engine design so he could sell to both Russia and Russia friendly markets but also to HATO because the engine is rather good for its type and size so why wouldn't they buy a "German" engine.

Of course when he is selling to Africa or Asia or Central or South America he can be German or he can be Russian depending on which gets him in the door.

Another factor in this is that airlines often were confronted with the fact that when your aircraft is half way round the world in Australia or some African or south American country, the chances of finding spare engine parts or a new engine for an aircraft using PD-8 engines is going be pretty low, while the various french and american types they ended up using are established designs either with parts everywhere or at least close by and people able to work on them locally.

Putting western parts into their new aircraft was to make them more attractive to western airlines (which didn't really matter) but also supposed to appeal to customers that all the electronics are Thales or Texas Instruments, but really they were cutting out Russian engine and avionics makers which further restricted the number and types of aircraft Russian aircraft makers could make because it made them also more expensive and the western designs that still dominate their airlines are of course all western.

Thanks to the US dropping the EU in the shit and forcing Russia to declare war, however, it is all being corrected... hopefully the Russian military will fund the necessary new engines and aircraft types for training and the foreign based designs can wither and die over time due to using western engines and parts.

Russia is now going to have to develop a full fleet... a full range of Russian aircraft that can replace western types still in use, and it wont happen over night, but it will need to happen because of western actions.

There are quite a few makers of diesel engines in Russia which could try to tackle the job. But the RED A03 engine uses quite a lot of German made components so it would likely be difficult to reproduce. That is why the engine designer made his company in Germany in the first place. To be close to the supply chain.

And that is the problem... assembling in Russia is just not good enough... they need to make the parts.... they have the skills and the technology... they just lack the production base... what they need to do is look across the board at all the sorts of things they will need to make for a variety of engines and vehicles and platforms and standardise across the board where possible... odds are there will be ship based engines that also need similar parts as well as train and bus engines and perhaps even tank and truck engines used in the military too.

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Post n°98

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

GarryB Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:36 am

This way instead the engine has been developed properly, possibly Raikhlin also got access to German specific manufacturing technology and in a few years Russia will have a modern serie of piston engines (possible smaller 6 and 4 cylinder derivative of the Red A03) for its general aviation as we

I had a friend whose parents (this is going back a while) had a big American car that had a big V6 engine but it was designed to shift to only using 4 cylinders when you were not using power, so when accelerating or climbing hills or towing a trailer it would use 6 cylinders, but cruising along on the motorway it only used 4 cylinders and was actually very economical, but had power when it was needed.

Perhaps they could do something similar for a light aircraft. If you are using it for travel then at takeoff it will be a full power 6 cylinder engine but once in the air you would fly around using only 4 cylinders and less fuel. I thought it was rather clever.

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Post n°99

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:19 am

lancelot wrote:There are quite a few makers of diesel engines in Russia which could try to tackle the job. But the RED A03 engine uses quite a lot of German made components so it would likely be difficult to reproduce. That is why the engine designer made his company in Germany in the first place. To be close to the supply chain.

I have been reading on and off about issues other diesel engine makers in Russia have been having with imported components from Germany. Engine blocks, pistons, electronic injection systems, etc. The engine block replacement with ones made in Russia is doable, Russia has pretty good metallurgy, the pistons can be made in China but the industry is working on more modern replacements which can be localized, and electronic injection can sometimes be made in Russia and sometimes imported from China. But this requires substantial redesign and retesting of the engine. It takes several years. For example the metal alloys made by Russian industry aren't the same as used in Germany.

Well Russia needs anyway to invest on diesel engine technology, and not only for aeronautical engines.
Even if it takes several years.

Russia managed to do import substitution on many western components used in SSJ100 and MC-21.
One of the choice of using such components in those aircrafts was maybe to keep the aircraft attractive to foreign companies, but the main issue was also that there was no modern alternative in many case, and, when the aircrafts were first designed, many russian components were not on par. Thanks to those anyway, Russia could have and could operate modern aircraft made in Russia (SJ100) and it was forced to finance a lot of modern component and material development, which is finally going to bear fruits.
This import substitution process started around 2017-2018.

I do not know if something equivalent was already started for diesel engine technology and components (since Russia already knows from many years that has a gap there), or if it is something that needs to be started now (which would mean that Russia needs at least 4-5 additional years), but completely forgetting about advanced piston engines seems like a waste.

I am also curious to know if some of the German advanced diesel engine technologies that you mention will also help in designing (or properly reverse engineer) modern naval diesel equivalent to the German MTU engines originally also used in some Russian corvettes.

lancelot wrote:
Anyway, I think the most likely thing that will happen is they will use turboprops in the initial trainers UTS-800 and Yak-152. And they will just forget about the aviation diesel. The VK-800 and VK-650 are in advanced development.

I see more pragmatic then to start production of UTS-800 after 2025 and delay the yak-152 until the have import substituted all the RED-A03 components and technology. Otherwise this last action will be "forgotten" again and Russia will lose an opportunity to cover this gap.

There is probably enough need to satisfy production of both basic trainers. And maybe in 2030 Russia will have some cadets in a part of the country being trained on one and instead the cadets in other air force training center will use the other plane. As long as they are not both used at the same time with the same location and cadets, it should not create problems.

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Post n°100

Re: Yak-152 Trainer Aircraft

GarryB Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:00 am

Currently, Yakovlev is working on import substitution of the German engine and is considering two main options: modernizing the current engine based on the Russian component base or adapting the VK-650 helicopter engine developed by UEC-Klimov to the Yak-152.

When choosing domestic analogues, the company is guided by the need to preserve the already achieved flight performance characteristics of the Yak-152. At the same time, maximum unification of the placement and geometry of the hood group will be ensured, which will minimize the amount of additional testing.

They have completed tests of the Yak-152 aircraft and they want an engine that will make minimal changes to the shape and power of the aircraft... which suggests they would prefer the current engine if given the choice with the logic that if you make a copy of the existing engine the aircraft is ready to go because it is already tested.

That is interesting because if they reverse engineer this diesel engine and start serial production I would say the delay in getting these engines produced at a useful rate is going to take rather longer than putting a new VK-600 engine in and modifying the nose and perhaps a new propeller with more blades to take advantage of the extra power, and then putting the VK-600 into serial production.

What I am trying to say is that if they have to put either of these engines into serial production I would say the VK-600 is probably going to be ready faster because they are talking about using it in quite a few different platforms so serial production in significant numbers makes good sense... and regarding testing time for the aircraft with a new engine... the time it will take to get either engine into serial production should give plenty of time to test the differences in performance.

Dare I say a diesel engine might be cheaper and easier to maintain which will be important in civilian use, but then the more power of the VK-600 could allow for an enlarged touring type aircraft with four seats and room for bags.

I would say if you develop and serial produce a new modern efficient engine of either type someone is going to develop an aircraft or other platform that will use it so it wont be a waste of time or money.

Well Russia needs anyway to invest on diesel engine technology, and not only for aeronautical engines.
Even if it takes several years.

I have to agree, there will be other diesel engine makers for tanks and trucks and buses and ships and tractors and a huge range of farm equipment and even power stations for use as backup power supplies for hospitals and other important buildings that will be interested in a fuel efficient diesel engine of modern design.

Even if they share some of the new technologies to make existing types better and more like the new engines and scale the new engine designs to replace the older models eventually...

Older engines are familiar and will be popular because they are familiar to the operators and those supporting them so talking to these people when designing new engines to make them happier with newer engines is important. Give the new engine a digital fuel management system to improve performance but use a standard USB C port and include the software with the engine so the user can check the status and performance of the engine. There are some things you wont want them to tinker with or change to prevent damage or misuse, but you could design it so they don't have to drive their tractor or tank or train or bus or ship to your workshop to fix... just connect a laptop to the engine computer and transmit the information to you so you can examine it and perhaps work out what might be wrong. Worst case scenario send an expert out to have a look, but most problems should be a case of diagnostics telling you this or that is wearing out and will need to be replaced in x number of flight hours.

Of course diesel engines can be scaled but as they get bigger they get very big very fast, while a gas turbine can be quite small for the higher power levels, but the savings in weight and size come at the cost of cost and fuel burn.

Fuel burn is always measured in the amount of fuel per hour burned to create each hp or kg of energy or thrust so when you talk about 11,500hp engines for Mi-26 helicopters then the fuel costs are going to be enormous, because even a small fuel consumption rate of maybe 100 grams of fuel per hp generated is going to be 100 x 11500, which is a lot of fuel, which is 1,150kgs of fuel... an engine burning at twice the rate but just a 500hp engine would be 200 x 500 which is 100kg of fuel.

So very big aircraft using very powerful engines are always going to consume a lot of fuel, which is why smaller aircraft are more useful and are bought in larger numbers, but sometimes you need that big platform because it might be the only thing that can do the job:

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