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Log inIs it possible for the S 400 to successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars as it carries 4 MIRVs that are manoeuvrable ?
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Viktor
SOC
Stealthflanker
Deep Throat
8 posters
Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Deep Throat- Posts : 86
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- Post n°1
Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Deep Throat Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:38 am
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1459
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- Post n°2
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Stealthflanker Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:06 pm
I think intercepting ICBM's are the job of larger system like Gorgon and Gazzelle.
While S-400's are to intercept smaller TBM and IRBM's
SOC- Posts : 565
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- Post n°3
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
SOC Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:54 am
Deep Throat wrote:Is it possible for the S 400 to successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars as it carries 4 MIRVs that are manoeuvrable ?
Probably not. Those are moving much faster than SRBM/MRBM-class targets. Also, that would basically defeat the purpose of the S-500, which will deal with targets with speeds up to orbital velocity, as in LEO satellites. The mechanics, and therefore the system components required, are very different when trying to intercept something with ICBM velocities.
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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- Post n°4
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Viktor Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:26 am
Definitely no. RS-24 moves with much higher speeds that S-400 can not catch and process.
Austin- Posts : 7617
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- Post n°5
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Austin Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:35 am
I doubt even the S-500 would be able to intercept an RS-24 which is primarily designed to deal with ABM threats if you have a fair competition.
Intercepting a Passive MIRV would be something S-500 will be upto if one can exclude decoys and stuff.
Intercepting a Passive MIRV would be something S-500 will be upto if one can exclude decoys and stuff.
Deep Throat- Posts : 86
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- Post n°6
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Deep Throat Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:25 am
Austin wrote:I doubt even the S-500 would be able to intercept an RS-24 which is primarily designed to deal with ABM threats if you have a fair competition.
Intercepting a Passive MIRV would be something S-500 will be upto if one can exclude decoys and stuff.
Yes . I too do not think that the S 500 can successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars.
SOC- Posts : 565
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- Post n°7
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
SOC Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:02 pm
It's certainly debatable whether the S-500 would be able to kill an RS-24. One has to remember that they're both Russian products, so the S-500 designers could have access to RS-24 MIRV information allowing them to incorporate the ability to defeat that class of target in case the US deploys something similar if there's ever a replacement for the Minuteman III. The S-500 should definitely be able to handle the speed, it's the maneuvering ability that'd have to be countered.Deep Throat wrote:Yes . I too do not think that the S 500 can successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars.Austin wrote:I doubt even the S-500 would be able to intercept an RS-24 which is primarily designed to deal with ABM threats if you have a fair competition.
Intercepting a Passive MIRV would be something S-500 will be upto if one can exclude decoys and stuff.
Austin- Posts : 7617
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- Post n°8
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Austin Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:05 pm
Manouvering , Decoys both in numbers with the 3rd dimension Time to complete the circle.
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°9
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
Sujoy Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:00 pm
The easiest and most cost effective counter measures that the Yars can use against interceptor missile fired by the S 400 or S 500 are inflatable balloon decoys .Since the missile defense interceptors are designed to strike warheads during mid course in the vacuum of space these balloons and any warheads would be traveling together, making it impossible to tell the decoys apart from the real thing.
Just inflating the balloons near the interceptor missile would confuse the defense system, swamping it with fake signals. If the defensive system cannot discriminate between a warhead and the many decoys, it won’t work.
If the S 500 has a mid course guidance datalink then theoretically you could program it to use that the entire way, and just remove the homing head. It's basically operating as a command-guided weapon during midcourse anyway. The drawback is that you're potentially less accurate over longer ranges depending on the capability of your radar. That could be a big deal with a smaller warhead.
The Yars warhead ( like most other MIRVs) is designed for reentry with heat resistant ablative shells and are slim aerodynamic shapes that need to be smashed... a glancing blow is not sufficient. ICBM warheads are also accompanied by decoys and jammers and stealth coatings etc etc .It all boils down to tracking. MIRV/MaRV are flying a relatively unstable and unpredictable path. Yars warheads are designed for low drag entry not just to engage hard targets but more importantly to defeat terminal-phase missile defenses.
Just inflating the balloons near the interceptor missile would confuse the defense system, swamping it with fake signals. If the defensive system cannot discriminate between a warhead and the many decoys, it won’t work.
If the S 500 has a mid course guidance datalink then theoretically you could program it to use that the entire way, and just remove the homing head. It's basically operating as a command-guided weapon during midcourse anyway. The drawback is that you're potentially less accurate over longer ranges depending on the capability of your radar. That could be a big deal with a smaller warhead.
The Yars warhead ( like most other MIRVs) is designed for reentry with heat resistant ablative shells and are slim aerodynamic shapes that need to be smashed... a glancing blow is not sufficient. ICBM warheads are also accompanied by decoys and jammers and stealth coatings etc etc .It all boils down to tracking. MIRV/MaRV are flying a relatively unstable and unpredictable path. Yars warheads are designed for low drag entry not just to engage hard targets but more importantly to defeat terminal-phase missile defenses.
flamming_python
flamming_python- Posts : 9543
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- Post n°10
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
flamming_python Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:10 pm
Neither the S-400 nor S-500 are rated against ICBMs; certainly not the generation of the RS-24.SOC wrote:It's certainly debatable whether the S-500 would be able to kill an RS-24. One has to remember that they're both Russian products, so the S-500 designers could have access to RS-24 MIRV information allowing them to incorporate the ability to defeat that class of target in case the US deploys something similar if there's ever a replacement for the Minuteman III. The S-500 should definitely be able to handle the speed, it's the maneuvering ability that'd have to be countered.Deep Throat wrote:Yes . I too do not think that the S 500 can successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars.Austin wrote:I doubt even the S-500 would be able to intercept an RS-24 which is primarily designed to deal with ABM threats if you have a fair competition.
Intercepting a Passive MIRV would be something S-500 will be upto if one can exclude decoys and stuff.
They were not designed to be able to intercept such missiles.
So let's say Almaz-Antey has access to the RS-24 project team, algorithm specifications, precise technical details, etc...
And so what? Why would they bother trying to get the S-400/500 to be able to intercept RS-24 missiles; when Russia is the only country with RS-24s anyway?
Sounds like a waste of time.
They certainly don't have access to all the US Minuteman and other foreign ICBM data.
So even a weapon capable of intercepting a Russian ICBM won't be able to handle an American ICBM; if what it relies on to do so is inside knowledge about Russian missile specifics.
Having said that - mind you the S-500 is slated to have at least some level of anti-ABM capability. But it's too early to speculate on that - its precise ABM capabilities are a closely guarded secret and will likely remain so.
GarryB- Posts : 40540
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- Post n°11
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
GarryB Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:21 pm
S-500 is an ABM system and will have specs that should allow it to engage standard ICBM reentry vehicles.
RS-24 is an ICBM but is designed to evade ABM interceptor missiles... S-500 is an ABM interceptor missile so assuming they have done their job S-500 should be unable in its first models to intercept RS-24 like weapons.
S-500 will have no AABM capability and will not be deployed close enough to an ABM system to interfere with it anyway...Having said that - mind you the S-500 is slated to have at least some level of anti-ABM capability. But it's too early to speculate on that - its precise ABM capabilities are a closely guarded secret and will likely remain so.
RS-24 is an ICBM but is designed to evade ABM interceptor missiles... S-500 is an ABM interceptor missile so assuming they have done their job S-500 should be unable in its first models to intercept RS-24 like weapons.
SOC- Posts : 565
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- Post n°12
Re: Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
SOC Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:13 pm
The S-500 is both an ABM and a LEO ASAT. People seemingly insisting that it's only a repeat of the S-400's 40N6 long-range SAM capability are ignorant of the entire set of information available.flamming_python wrote:Neither the S-400 nor S-500 are rated against ICBMs; certainly not the generation of the RS-24.
Right up until the USA or China figures out or deploys MaRVs. Then the effort will have been worth it. Otherwise, you're never progressing. It helps to try and defend against the projected future threat, not just currently available systems.flamming_python wrote:And so what? Why would they bother trying to get the S-400/500 to be able to intercept RS-24 missiles; when Russia is the only country with RS-24s anyway?
Sounds like a waste of time.
They certainly can put ships in the Pacific, Atlantic, etc. and track RV reentry angles and velocities. Which are about all that matters right now without foreign MaRVs.flamming_python wrote:They certainly don't have access to all the US Minuteman and other foreign ICBM data.
They shot down SS-4s, SCUDs, and others during testing to evaluate the S-300P series in the ATBM role. By your logic, that means they cannot defeat any non-Russian made TBMs. That's obviously false and a complete misrepresentation of how developing this or any other capability would actually work.flamming_python wrote:So even a weapon capable of intercepting a Russian ICBM won't be able to handle an American ICBM; if what it relies on to do so is inside knowledge about Russian missile specifics.
What're they going to do, deploy it off the coast of Alaska to shoot down GBI?flamming_python wrote:Having said that - mind you the S-500 is slated to have at least some level of anti-ABM capability.
Except when various industry and MoD officials come right out and say it.[/quote]flamming_python wrote:But it's too early to speculate on that - its precise ABM capabilities are a closely guarded secret and will likely remain so.
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- Post n°13
Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars
flamming_python Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:36 am
Whoops I mean ABM capability not anti-ABMGarryB wrote:S-500 is an ABM system and will have specs that should allow it to engage standard ICBM reentry vehicles.
S-500 will have no AABM capability and will not be deployed close enough to an ABM system to interfere with it anyway...Having said that - mind you the S-500 is slated to have at least some level of anti-ABM capability. But it's too early to speculate on that - its precise ABM capabilities are a closely guarded secret and will likely remain so.
RS-24 is an ICBM but is designed to evade ABM interceptor missiles... S-500 is an ABM interceptor missile so assuming they have done their job S-500 should be unable in its first models to intercept RS-24 like weapons.
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