Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

Eight rebels killed' in Dagestan

At least eight suspected militants have been killed by Russian security forces in the troubled southern republic of Dagestan, local officials have said.

The men were shot dead by members of the Federal Security Service during an hour-long gun battle in a forest near the capital, Makhachkala, they added.

In neighbouring Chechnya, a militant was killed during a raid in the Urus-Martanovskiy district, reports say.

The clashes came after a suicide bomber killed six people in Grozny on Sunday.

The man blew himself up after police stopped him while he attempted to gain entry to a concert hall in the Chechen capital.

Growing insurgency

Violence has flared in the North Caucasus in recent months, with dozens of militants and members of the security forces being killed.

In June, the President of Ingushetia, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, was critically injured by a car bomb in an apparent assassination attempt.

Two weeks earlier, Dagestan's interior minister was shot dead.

Russian forces have fought two wars against Islamist separatists in the mainly Muslim republic of Chechnya since 1994. The conflicts claimed more than 100,000 lives and left it in ruins.

Chechnya has in recent years been more peaceful, but the fighting has spread to Dagestan and Ingushetia, where correspondents say a violent Islamist insurgency is growing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8172363.stm

Vladimir79 wrote:

Chechnya has in recent years been more peaceful, but the fighting has spread to Dagestan and Ingushetia, where correspondents say a violent Islamist insurgency is growing.

Today the construction minister of Ingushetia was killed!

Another assassination has taken place in the unstable Caucasus region of southern Russia. The Ingushetian construction minister Ruslan Amerkhanov was shot dead by two unknown gunman this morning who walked into his office in Magas not far from the capital, and opened fire.

Ingushetia is suffering from a rebellion by Islamic fundamentalists and has become the most violent of Russia’s southern republics. In June the president was seriously injured when his convoy was caught in a suicide attack, and he only left hospital yesterday.
http://www.euronews.net/2009/08/12/minister-murdered-in-ingushetia/

Ingushetia’s forensics chief died in July after a shooting
Republic’s Supreme Court judge was assassinated in June

sepheronx wrote:Is there any form of temporary rules like any curfews set in place? Make these areas suffer in the sense of forcing the people to tell you where these insurgents are. It is either give them up and have freedom, or live like sheep just trying to hide them.

No, we are not going to impose martial law for one or two terror cells. These are mainly foreign Wahhabis since they are detonating themselves. Kadyrov is basically martial law himself and he now has jursidiction. We all know how far he will go.

Vladimir79 wrote:

No, we are not going to impose martial law for one or two terror cells. These are mainly foreign Wahhabis since they are detonating themselves. Kadyrov is basically martial law himself and he now has jursidiction. We all know how far he will go.

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

4 policemen, 7 civilians shot dead in south Russia
Militants kill 4 police officers, 7 civilians in Russia's volatile Caucasus province


Gunmen shot and killed four police officers and seven civilians in a restive Russian province near Chechnya on Thursday, officials said.

The attackers drove to a police checkpoint in the city of Buinaksk in the province of Dagestan and sprayed it with automatic gunfire, killing four officers on the spot, said Mark Tolchinsky, a spokesman for the Russian Interior Ministry's branch in Dagestan.

The militants then shot and killed seven women in a nearby bathhouse, he said.

Tolchinsky said two more police officers were wounded by militants in two other separate attacks Thursday in the provincial capital, Makhachkala.

Separately, security forces worked Thursday to defuse a homemade bomb they found on the tracks of a major railway that passes through Makhachkala. They tried unsuccessfully for several hours to defuse the explosive device and then delayed further action until Friday morning, halting train travel.

Dagestan, which is located east of Chechnya, has been destabilized by regular attacks on police and other officials by Islamic militants. The region's top law enforcement officer was killed by a sniper in June.

While major fighting in Chechnya has subsided after the two separatist wars over the last 15 years, its neighboring provinces in Russia's North Caucasus have seen a steady rise in violence.

In the province of Ingushetia west of Chechnya, three gunmen on Thursday shot and killed a female fortuneteller, the regional Interior Ministry's branch said in a statement. Members of militant Islamic groups see fortunetelling as a grave vice, the ministry said.

Source: AP News
http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/08/13/4-policemen-7-civilians-shot-dead-in-south-russia/

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

Jelena wrote:

You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

As of the 2002 census, 4.7% of Dagestan is ethnic Russian. It is even less today.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

As of the 2002 census, 4.7% of Dagestan is ethnic Russian. It is even less today.

Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

Ethnic Russian muslims... I never heard of such a thing except in Tatarstan. They would be strung up if anyone found out. 4 million ethnic muslims have converted to Orthodoxy in the last 5 years so I am not worried about a few Russ doing it.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

Ethnic Russian muslims... I never heard of such a thing except in Tatarstan. They would be strung up if anyone found out. 4 million ethnic muslims have converted to Orthodoxy in the last 5 years so I am not worried about a few Russ doing it.

That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me

Jelena wrote:

That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me

There are only 20 million muslims in the whole country. What idiot told you there were 20 million ethnic Russian muslims?

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me

There are only 20 million muslims in the whole country. What idiot told you there were 20 million ethnic Russian muslims?

One muslims from other board where I post (he speaks Russian, Serbian and English)...I think you know the place I am talking about that goes under Russian newspaper. He disputed my claim that those muslims in Russia are not ethnic Russians but they just hold Russian citizenship (to him there is no difference between two) and further he made claim on one other thread that Putin is going sometimes for a morning prayer in one mosque near Kremlin!
I have no way to check this, especially on Putin and that's why I asked you...

Jelena wrote:

One muslims from other board where I post (he speaks Russian, Serbian and English)...I think you know the place I am talking about that goes under Russian newspaper. He disputed my claim that those muslims in Russia are not ethnic Russians but they just hold Russian citizenship (to him there is no difference between two) and further he made claim on one other thread that Putin is going sometimes for a morning prayer in one mosque near Kremlin!
I have no way to check this, especially on Putin and that's why I asked you...

Putin prayed in a mosque? The first visit of any Russian leader to Moskva's Mosque was last month and that was by Medvedev to meet with the Islamic Council. No Russian heads of state have ever been to it before Medvedev, much less prayed there.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

This is a serious issue. Sure, there are hardly any ethnic Russians left in Chechna, Ingushetia, Dagestan and the Chechen terrorist kill Chechen OMON, MVD (and vise versa), but lest we forget that hundred of thousands of (Muslim) people from that region live in Moscow and other parts of Russia proper. The people we are talking about are Russian citizens (which is different from the situation with KLA - most of whom were citizens of Albania, not Yugoslavia).

As we know from history many Muslims (in particular Chechens) have fought bravely for the greatness of Russia. Most recently they fought in Georgia as a part of the Russian Army against "Orthodox" Georgians who came to South Ossetia to kill another Orthodox people.


It all depends on who "stirs" them up, and they surely respect force, - as most people in the East. Thus, lest we forget that, for example, during WWI thousands of them joined the "Savage Division" that became most feared unit of the Russian Army (the Germans didn't take them prisoners, as well as the cossacks). Moreover, unlike the ethnic Russians, they VOLUNTEERED to fight for Russia and the Russian Emperor. Quoting Wikipedia:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%8F

"Как сама дивизия, так и входившие в её состав полки стали гордостью российской армии." - "The division itself, as well as regiments that composed it - became the pride of the Russian Army."

Thousands of them distinguished themselves under the leadership of the Russian officers who fought in the "Savage Division". One of them was a son of Leo Tolstoy, who in his youth fought against the Chechens in the Caucasian War. Grand Duke Mikhail Romanov, Nicholas II's brother was at some point the commander of the "Savage Division".



I don't see it as a "black/white" issue - it is much more complicated than that.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

Typical Russian response. We cry when Kurds get killed by PKK and especially when we have to kill them. You just want to see dead Muslims am I right?

Turk1 wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Jelena wrote:

Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

Typical Russian response. We cry when Kurds get killed by PKK and especially when we have to kill them. You just want to see dead Muslims am I right?

Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

soldieroffortune wrote:

Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

I don't see any Russian press crying over it, much less ethnic Russians.

Turk1 wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:

Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

I don't see any Russian press crying over it, much less ethnic Russians.

Do you read Russian?

soldieroffortune wrote:

Do you read Russian?

Da, ia govriyu po-russki, a vy?

Turk1 wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:

Do you read Russian?

Da, ia govriyu po-russki, a vy?

Ya tozhe govorju po-russki. Togda (esli vy ne smotreli), vam ponravitsja fil'm

Кавказцы в войнах России. Дикая дивизия

http://rutube.ru/tracks/911215.html?v=ee2b7badbe605515a089e83c1508575f

During WW1, the Russian officers belonging to the highest nobility class considered serving in the Muslim "Savage Division" - the greatest honor.

If I may, - perhaps, Vladimir79 (Grand Marshal) and Jelena (Junior Sergent) should consider moderating some of their own posts in this thread where they wrote about Muslims. Please refer to the reaction by Turk1 to Post#6.

Now as it stands any Muslim (even the one who is a priory friendly towards Russia and the Russians) - can read these posts and claim: "Russians are racist, they hate all Muslims!" Also please think of those 20 million of Russian citizens who happen to be Muslims - some of them may also be reading these lines.

Just a friendly comment, written our of concern.

soldieroffortune wrote:If I may, - perhaps, Vladimir79 (Grand Marshal) and Jelena (Junior Sergent) should consider moderating some of their own posts in this thread where they wrote about Muslims. Please refer to the reaction by Turk1 to Post#6.

Did I mention religion in my post? No, it takes a Turk to derive such langauge from something not said. Opinions on this forum are open as long as they are stated as opinions and are corroberated by some piece of evidence. I had a good mind to moderate your post calling my MoD a traitor, but I didn't even though there is nothing substantial to label him as such. Note that I am going to move it to the general discussion area.

Now as it stands any Muslim (even the one who is a priory friendly towards Russia and the Russians) - can read these posts and claim: "Russians are racist, they hate all Muslims!" Also please think of those 20 million of Russian citizens who happen to be Muslims - some of them may also be reading these lines.

Its an open forum, say what you want as long as you can back it up. I fought two wars in Kavkaz and lost dozens of friends, so I think I am entitled to my opinion about the fate of Caucasians. Not to mention I am half Alan.

soldieroffortune wrote:If I may, - perhaps, Vladimir79 (Grand Marshal) and Jelena (Junior Sergent) should consider moderating some of their own posts in this thread where they wrote about Muslims. Please refer to the reaction by Turk1 to Post#6.

Please mark my posts which you consider to be disturbing.I used statistical data to understand the situation since I really have just a basic knowledge about it.I asked some valid questions and do believe deeply that lies should not be allowed and I don't "pass" on them as a rule.I don't believe that I've been rude to other peoples' religion?!?

Now as it stands any Muslim (even the one who is a priory friendly towards Russia and the Russians) - can read these posts and claim: "Russians are racist, they hate all Muslims!" Also please think of those 20 million of Russian citizens who happen to be Muslims - some of them may also be reading these lines.

Just a friendly comment, written our of concern.

Racism and religion have nothing in common and should not be confused. There are even black Orthodox people in South Africa, no matter how surprisingly that might sound http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/safrica.htm .

Vladimir79 wrote:

soldieroffortune wrote:If I may, - perhaps, Vladimir79 (Grand Marshal) and Jelena (Junior Sergent) should consider moderating some of their own posts in this thread where they wrote about Muslims. Please refer to the reaction by Turk1 to Post#6.

Did I mention religion in my post? No, it takes a Turk to derive such langauge from something not said. Opinions on this forum are open as long as they are stated as opinions and are corroberated by some piece of evidence. I had a good mind to moderate your post calling my MoD a traitor, but I didn't even though there is nothing substantial to label him as such. Note that I am going to move it to the general discussion area.

Now as it stands any Muslim (even the one who is a priory friendly towards Russia and the Russians) - can read these posts and claim: "Russians are racist, they hate all Muslims!" Also please think of those 20 million of Russian citizens who happen to be Muslims - some of them may also be reading these lines.

Its an open forum, say what you want as long as you can back it up. I fought two wars in Kavkaz and lost dozens of friends, so I think I am entitled to my opinion about the fate of Caucasians. Not to mention I am half Alan.

Vladimir79: I respect your experience fighting in the two Kavkaz wars, I also respect very much the memories of those who died, - especially the Russian soldiers. However you know the official opinion on this matter of Mr. Putin and your MoD, backed up by their actions.

NB.: Please feel free to do what you think is appropriate with my thread about your MoD being a traitor, I may have gone too far. However I do know many honest Russians, including those with military background who think as I do regarding the matter. I'm sure many people think differently. Let's wait and see. I hope you are right and after the reforms by MoD the Russian Army will emerge stronger.