Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

GarryB wrote:The Severodvinsk hasn't been in the water all that long and her improved sister ships have not even hit the water yet, yet the US is giving performance information out like they know more than the Russian Navy does.

If you listen to this person... why don't you listen to Artjomh?

The Americans are perfectly happy to lie when it suits them.

Look at the WMD debacle with Iraq as an example of using information and "estimates" that suited their agenda.

Added to that the very strong US believe in its technical superiority and US strong propaganda and I really don't rate the information coming from the US. They will likely happily manipulate the evidence one way or the other to suit their current needs so I will not put much trust in the figures and charts they release.

TR1 wrote:Wait, I never heard of Artjomh serving on a SSBN. Proof?

Those are estimates or trends what the ONI believes could be broadband noise quitening ..... but those are not gospel truth and things might not be as black and white as US Intelligence thinks.

Because he served on Russian SSBN for some time and had vast experience in the Navy on Surface Ships .....Artjomh opinion i do respect a lot but like i said he is not infallible.....no one is for that matter.

But if you ask my opinion i would say that Akula is a formidable enemy both in its own backyard and in open seas , there are many aspects to submarine performance both at tactical and strategic level and Noise is one of them.

On a side note. Why doesn't one of you guys just invite artjomh to join this forum.
I haven't posted in mp.net for a long while, and I don't even remember my password.

I graduated in 1985 Caspian High Naval (Red Banner--only two of them existed in USSR) Academy of S.M.Kirov. Navigational faculty, specialist in gyro-inertial navigational complexes of the strategic missile systems (basic projects of SSBNs 667B-BD) but went on to serve on the surface fleet. One dive in the project 613 SSK was enough to convince me that I had enough of subs (although later I spent a lot of time on them, thankfully, mostly in the surface mode). As to give You impression who graduated my alma-mater, from Hero Of The Soviet Union (actually more than 30 of them graduated in different times) Admiral Zhiltsov to Admiral Arkhipov (You should now him as CS of 69 BRPL in Caribean Crisis) to Admiral Turilin and the list goes on and on. Even Evgenii Primakov studied for a couple of years in our alma-mater.

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1997-07/catch-quiet-ones

Despite denials that their submarines operate out of area, declassification of several recent Russian submarine deployments proves otherwise. 5 Akula-class submarines conducted unprecedented operations off our submarine bases at both Kings Bay, Georgia, and Bangor, Washington, in an attempt to detect and track our SSBNs. Oscar II submarines in both the Pacific and Atlantic conducted intercepts of our transiting aircraft carrier battle groups and amphibious ready groups. More recently, a Victor III submarine disrupted a major NATO exercise off the coast of Britain. These partings of the ASW curtain provide just a small glimpse of current frontline Russian nuclear submarine operations against our forces. They do not begin to address how difficult it is to detect and track the modern Russian nuclear-powered submarine.

Russian advances in submarine quieting are well documented, but published estimates tend to emphasize a general impact on overall noise levels. 6 If we consider the submarine's median detection range (MDR)—the distance at which there exists a 50% probability of target detection on a single sonobuoy—we get a more accurate illustration of the challenge: Russian submarine MDRs are only a third of what they were ten years ago. Search patterns that once were spaced several miles apart today are spaced in yards. Individual sonobuoy contact time that once was measured in minutes now is measured in seconds. Reduced MDRs also have made dual aircraft operations nearly mandatory to increase the probability of detection on large-area search patterns to acceptable levels. It also is important to note that the high-speed capabilities of Russian submarines are of less concern to the ASW tactician, because MDRs increase significantly as speed increases. Slow-speed operations, however, are lethal. The MPA community myth regarding the short MDR Russian submarine may be somewhat inflated, but no one, including our allies, tracks an Akula class submarine at patrol speeds for long.

Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

RTN wrote:

Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .

RTN wrote:The US Navy excels in submarine operation in littoral water , something that most European and Asian navies have not excelled at till date .

Werewolf wrote:

RTN wrote:

Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .

If i remember right, Mindstorm posted about year back, a very good post showing that not only Germany,UK and France came so close to US ships and ACs which were guarded by US submarines and could not track those subs for hours and days, and those NATO countries are much weaker in Navy than Russia.

If the search function on this forum wasn't so poor designed i would be able to track down the exact post.

So the claim

RTN wrote:The US Navy excels in submarine operation in littoral water , something that most European and Asian navies have not excelled at till date .

is wrong.

magnumcromagnon wrote:
Don't forget the Pentagon was shocked to find out that a Russian sub back in 2012 was spotted off the Gulf Coast in the Gulf of Mexico, and that very sub was parked in America's backyard for an entire month undetected by the U.S. Navy...suffice to say it was a huge scandal in Washington:

http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks

RTN wrote:The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs . That explains why the USSR invested  so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

RTN wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:
Don't forget the Pentagon was shocked to find out that a Russian sub back in 2012 was spotted off the Gulf Coast in the Gulf of Mexico, and that very sub was parked in America's backyard for an entire month undetected by the U.S. Navy...suffice to say it was a huge scandal in Washington:

http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks

Two things . First , I was referring to incident/s where the Chinese Navy was unable to detect the OHIO class submarines inspite of the fact that they were just 20 nauticle miles off the Chinese coast .

Second , the above link that you have posted was released to the press by certain Congressmen whose States will benefit if DoD allocates more resources to Submarine development .

The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs . That explains why the USSR invested  so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .

Second , the above link that you have posted was released to the press by certain Congressmen whose States will benefit if DoD allocates more resources to Submarine development .

The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs .

That explains why the USSR invested so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

GarryB wrote:an ohio class with its reactor shut down is very quiet, but they have to run their reactor for power and the reactor needs cooling... cooling fluids flowing through pipes make noise.... the same for any nuke propelled boat.

RTN wrote:
The AN/BQQ-10(V4) sonar processing system is the most advanced system in it's class in the world . This coupled with the WLR-10 threat warning system and the WLR-8(V) surveillance receiver makes the OHIO class submarines immune to hostile enemy actions .

Werewolf wrote:WW2 Tiger tank propaganda and US Iraq war Abrams propaganda to what you just said.