The legendary MiG-21

Not a bad figther, but pretty much F-5A/E material. Has nothing on F-16C past Block 25/30.

nemrod wrote:
I share obviously this point view, even though the Mig-29 is a real fantastic aircraft. And as the Mig-29 was the successor of the Mig-21, he is necessary better than the Mig-21.

The Iraqis were disappointed with their MIG-29s in 1991.

This photo shows a supposed egyptian Mig-21 downed somewhere above the Sinai around october 1973.

That pic first appeared in Newsweek during the war. They didn't say it was Egyptian but a downed SAF jet over Golan. Of course you're right that was false.

http://www.amazon.com/MiG-19-MiG-21-Units-Combat-Aircraft/dp/1841766550/ref=sr_1_22?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1460460302&sr=1-22
Tom Cooper's website ACIG.info.

That book was interesting but old. I have a couple of his ARAB MIGs works.

starman wrote:
The Iraqis were disappointed with their MIG-29s in 1991.

The Mig-29 is among best aircraft never designed in this world, unfortunately it had to bear the worst burden of an infamous and unfair bad reputation, mostly due to US propaganda.
AFAIK, it is hard to judge the iraqi Mig-29's performances. First of all, everyone lie, Iraqis lie, and of course US lie, hence it is hard to understand what's exactly happened during 1991's war. Moreover, with the best good will in the world, Iraq could not win the war, even with its Mig-29. It is noteworthy to add that just after the end of the war, Iraqi air force had to sustained huge purges against many of its high ranking officers - IRAF-. Do not forget that Saddam ordered a great part of its aircraft to flee to Iran, the question is why ?

Aside this, Iam still convinced that a Mig-21 Bis with its R-25 300 is still nowadays a redoubtable opponent against any US aircraft including the F-35. Notice that during this war the F-16 failed to down any iraqi aircraft, however Iraq did have a considerable number of Mig-21. The number of US air victories in 1991 is overstated, and their losses are as usual underestimated.

nemrod wrote:
AFAIK, it is hard to judge the iraqi Mig-29's performances.  First of all, everyone lie, Iraqis lie, and of course US lie, hence it is hard to understand what's exactly happened during 1991's war. Moreover,  with the best good will in the world, Iraq could not win the war, even with its Mig-29.

From what I've read, Iraq had very few of them, only 29.

Do not forget that Saddam ordered a great part of its aircraft to flee to Iran, the question is why ?

The US was destroying Iraqi jets in their hardened shelters. If they couldn't beat the US or coalition in the air or survive in their shelters, Iraq might as well just send them to another state. He should've sent them to Syria but couldn't, for political reasons; Syria was part of the coalition against him. That left only Iran.

Notice that during this war the F-16 failed to down any iraqi aircraft,

The F-16s were used for attack missions.

The number of US air victories in 1991 is overstated, and their losses are as usual underestimated.

The US conceded that an Iraqi MIG-23 and a MIG-29 hit two aircraft each, totalling IIRC three F-111s and a B-52. All four are said to have survived despite extensive damage to one or two. Maybe the R-60 missile used by the MIGs didn't have sufficient warhead to kill a bomber. Even the R-27 wasn't good enough(?).

Ok which is the better aircraft? It's been very mixed views on other forum's wanted to know what people here thought.

F-7pg (J-7) vs mig-21 bison / mig-21-97? ???

My view is the mig-21 bison / mig-21-97 is better due to radar and BVR weapons.

d_taddei2 wrote:Ok which is the better aircraft?  It's been very mixed views on other forum's wanted to know what people here thought.

F-7pg  (J-7) vs mig-21 bison / mig-21-97? ???

My view is the mig-21 bison / mig-21-97 is better due to radar and BVR weapons.

Since the day when I registered in this forum, and today, as we say in french "De l'eau a coulé sous les ponts..." U translated by "water has flowed under the bridge" it means "much has happenned". I spent much time to understand, and to read specialists mostly. I realized how US or western assertions are mere hoaxes, fantasies, if not sometimes stupidiiies and in this field the last are not the israelis.

Well contrary to what it is claimed BVR never succeeded, is not a success, and won't succeed one day. It is a mere fantaisy.
U compare Mig-21-97, and Mig-21 Bison. In spite of it is the same Mig-21, the two aircraft are completely different. The Mig-21 Bison is a Mig-21 Bis "modernized" by israelis in reality it is US-western cumbersome technologies embedded inside an agile aircraft that won't be agile anymore. In fact it is two approach, two complete different philosophies.
The soviet's view is bases on CGI, heavy sophisticated radars, jammers, command and control on the ground, as it is defensive view. Then Mikoyan, Klimov, Simonov, Belyakhov etc...designed their aircraft from a jet engine resulting elegant and excellent dogfighters, if not the best.
By opposite view, the US's mentality  based on agression, attack, they designed their fighters from radar, air to air missiles and BVR, their fighter are pitable dogfighter. In fact they tried to miniaturize huge and heavy Control Groud Interception radars, powerful jammers, all embedded in a single aircraft. Even though U are not a specialist, U do not need much time to understand that it is an impossible task. It is an evident faillure since the beginning  -F-4 Phantom II's era-.
Finally they did not succeed in BVR and stealth, neither in dogfighter. Their last so-called success in Iraq, and Serbia, were mostly due only by outnumberring two poor and isolated countries  Iraq, and Serbia, and the presence of an exception historic. See the difference now with Syria.

In this competition the Mig-21/97 would be the best, because the concentration was only on the primary function of a fighter, the dogfight. My hope is to see a Mig-21 with TVC. It would be especially exciting.

nemrod wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Ok which is the better aircraft?  It's been very mixed views on other forum's wanted to know what people here thought.

F-7pg  (J-7) vs mig-21 bison / mig-21-97? ???

My view is the mig-21 bison / mig-21-97 is better due to radar and BVR weapons.

Since the day when I registered in this forum, and today, as we say in french "De l'eau a coulé sous les ponts..." U translated by "water has flowed under the bridge" it means "much has happenned". I spent much time to understand, and to read specialists mostly. I realized how US or western assertions are mere hoaxes, fantasies, if not sometimes stupidiiies and in this field the last are not the israelis.

Well contrary to what it is claimed BVR never succeeded, is not a success, and won't succeed one day. It is a mere fantaisy.
U compare Mig-21-97, and Mig-21 Bison. In spite of it is the same Mig-21, the two aircraft are completely different. The Mig-21 Bison is a Mig-21 Bis "modernized" by israelis in reality it is US-western cumbersome technologies embedded inside an agile aircraft that won't be agile anymore. In fact it is two approach, two complete different philosophies.
The soviet's view is bases on CGI, heavy sophisticated radars, jammers, command and control on the ground, as it is defensive view. Then Mikoyan, Klimov, Simonov, Belyakhov etc...designed their aircraft from a jet engine resulting elegant and excellent dogfighters, if not the best.
By opposite view, the US's mentality  based on agression, attack, they designed their fighters from radar, air to air missiles and BVR, their fighter are pitable dogfighter. In fact they tried to miniaturize huge and heavy Control Groud Interception radars, powerful jammers, all embedded in a single aircraft. Even though U are not a specialist, U do not need much time to understand that it is an impossible task. It is an evident faillure since the beginning  -F-4 Phantom II's era-.
Finally they did not succeed in BVR and stealth, neither in dogfighter. Their last so-called success in Iraq, and Serbia, were mostly due only by outnumberring two poor and isolated countries  Iraq, and Serbia, and the presence of an exception historic. See the difference now with Syria.

In this competition the Mig-21/97 would be the best, because the concentration was only on the primary function of a fighter, the dogfight. My hope is to see a Mig-21 with TVC. It would be especially exciting.

Ok points taken. So what's your opinion on the F-7pg ?

d_taddei2 wrote:
Ok points taken. So what's your opinion on the F-7pg ?

Bad copy of the original ;-)
China's industry is only emerging now in 2015, with its new J-10 C -equipped  indigenous TVC's engine-, J-20 and J-31. Now we can say that China is really a superpower able to design its own aircraft with its own jet engines too. The saga of the WS-10 is terminated. Notice that the J-11's serie are copies too of original SU-30, SU-33, and SU-35 -J-11D -.

... the Mig-21 kicking F-15 and F-16 ass.....Indian Air Force flying the MiG-21 'Bison' gave USAF F-15 drivers - a very bad day....

In fact contrary of the western assertions since the end of Korea's war US Air Force are in a deep trouble. As I explained above they chose options that are in reality disastrous. The F-15 is not a dogfighter, and its BVR does not run. Problem ! What could be the solution ?
- As long as it is possible F-15 try to avoid any encounter with the Mig-21. The last version version of the Fishbed is really interresting because of its R-25 300 that gives the soviet aircraft nearly 9.700 KN thrust allowing to easily outmanoeuver any western fighter in that time, including F-15, F-18, F-16, and F-14-all overloaded by cumbersome hardware -. During Iran-Iraq war, the Mig-21s successfully downed several F-14.

- The second solution is to lie, asserting statement that could not be checked. Israel for example asserted in june 1982 that its air force downed about 100 syrian migs above Lebanon's sky against none israelis losses. Laughable! This army could barely reach Beyruth areas, against PLO -that was only milicians in that time-, but unable push back regular syrian army, and unable to reach Beyruth-Damascus Highway, strategic goal of Zionist's campaign. The israelis medias acknolaledged in that time, syrian formations of Migs bombed israelis ground forces until the last minutes before cease fire. After the war of Lebanon a US sent a commission to Israel, in order to verify Israel'  claims especially "100 migs downed" by modern F-15, F-16. In front of the senat the chief of this commission asserted that Israel did not give any tangible proof.
Moreover, and let's repeat  again the last conflicts involving US air force in Iraq, and Serbia does not prove  western superiorities in any areas. US outnumbered Iraq air force, and Serbia's air force, and due to the historic exceptions US won, but not in the battlefield.

U can easily see the difference in Syria. Once Russia decided to say enough is enough US had to give up the party. Presently US does not have any kind of superiority against Russia's technology. If Russia stand against US in 1999 in the same way, we never see a defeat of Serbia, neither in Iraq. Just a last detail, recently we were said that an EF-18 downed a syrian SU-22 that is very well known for its manoeuvrability. Really ? In fact there were several EF-18, as usually assisted by RC-135 jammers, Awacs, F-22. The team of EF-18 launched several air air missile AMRAAM against the syrian pilot. The SU-22 dodged sucessfully several AIM-120. If the syrian pilot chose to flee the scene its SU-22,  might be saved, but he decided to continue its mission until the end. At this moment US -cowarwardly as usual- launched missiles again and again. They finally downed, but at this step we know that the AMRAAM and its BVR are a mere shit! This story is not swaggered by these bastards of CNN, Fox, but if the SU-22 did have a fair escort never the US might dare!

Back to our subject, with a fair upgrade by adding new generation of IRST, the Mig-21 could outmaneouver any US aircraft.

d_taddei2 wrote:
"The agility of MiG-21 cannot be matched by any of the present day fighters,..." IAF chief NAK Browne said"

Yes and no.
After US debacle in Vietnam, american abandonned several douzens of F-5 Freedom Fighter.
After 1975, the government of Vietnam inherited the US warplanes, and they sent some of them to the USSR for trials. Soviet underwent test combats between F-5 freedom fighter and Mig-21 Fisheb. The results surprised soviets. In most of mock air combats the F-5 won against the Mig-21. These results helped soviets to better design their new Mig-29, and improved new combat's technics for the Mig-21.
As I explained above, during the combats in Bekaa valley in 1982 Syria lost 46-47 aircraft against 42 for israelis. Most of the syrian Mig-21's losses could be explained by their use. The Mig-21 MF, and Bis are pure dogfighter, for air superiority, and not bombers. Syrian used them as fighter-bombers to pound israelis ground forces. Hence they were more vulnerable to the western air-air missiles, because if you embedded bombs, U are less manoeuvrable, and the ground's shells. If you add during these combats, US jammers and the VI th task force in Mediterannea helped israelis to jam syrians fighters and control command. A direct US participation was not impossible.
After this, the results of the Mig-21 seem to be excellent, confirmed by indians during mock combats against US in Red Flag or Cope India.
Moreover, Iam near sure that there were NATO exercises involving Mig-21 vs F-16/F-15/F-18 and the results for the Mig-21 were excellent, but for political reasons US classified these news.

nemrod wrote:.....during the combats in Bekaa valley in 1982 Syria lost 46-47 aircraft against 42 for israelis.

In his recent book MIG-23 Flogger in the Middle East Cooper says there is no evidence for any Israeli losses in aerial combat, in '82, with the exception of one damaged F-15. Most sources say the SAF lost at least 80 aircraft.

The Mig-21 MF, and Bis are pure dogfighter, for air superiority, and not bombers.

Contrary to what I've read...

]Syrian used them as fighter-bombers to pound israelis ground forces.

Na, the Syrians used MIG-21s, and MIG-23MS/ML in air combat. MIG-23BNs and Su-22s were the ground attack aircraft.

GarryB wrote:But no mention of the aircraft the MiG-25 shot down?

Sounds very selective....

I assumed that was already common knowledge.

GarryB wrote:It should have been:

Assuming the speicher kill was already common knowledge, I just focused on the other, more obscure or more controversial actions which, incidentally also includes a Tornado, claimed to be the victim of a MIG-29.

starman wrote:
In his recent book MIG-23 Flogger in the Middle East Cooper says there is no evidence for any Israeli losses in aerial combat, in '82, with the exception of one damaged F-15. Most sources say the SAF lost at least 80 aircraft.

Well who is Tom Cooper ? An ex-US Navy veteran, working with US DoD , and he tries to sell his books for western public. As nowadays the politically correct is prevailing in West, he must to be conformed,  however it does not mean objectivity.  Regarding his last awful interview in war is boring
he claimed that A Russian Pilot Died While Attacking Civilians in Syria .  Shame!
https://warisboring.com/49844-2/
I doubt T. Cooper 's objectivities. Could he say other things ? The answer is no, because West is becoming a dictatorship not more, not less.

The Mig-21 MF, and Bis are pure dogfighter, for air superiority, and not bombers.
Contrary to what I've read...

Then, no use to tell more.

 Syrian used them as fighter-bombers to pound israelis ground forces.

Na, the Syrians used MIG-21s, and MIG-23MS/ML in air combat. MIG-23BNs and Su-22s were the ground attack aircraft.

... U are satisfied by your own egocentric opinions, I don't see interests to go further.

nemrod wrote:
Well who is Tom Cooper ? An ex-US Navy veteran, working with US DoD , and he tries to sell his books for western public. As nowadays the politically correct is prevailing in West, he must to be conformed

Tom Cooper is far from "politically correct." I have his ARAB MIGs books (among others) and he often inclines toward the Egyptian/arab view, while questioning the Israeli view. Believe me, here in the US, that is anything but the usual position....

starman wrote:

Tom Cooper is far from "politically correct." I have his ARAB MIGs books (among others) and he often inclines toward the Egyptian/arab view, while questioning the Israeli view. Believe me, here in the US, that is anything but the usual position....

And of course U do think that U are the only one to have read Arab Mig, others no ? He inclined ? If U say it....

nemrod wrote:
And of course U do think that U are the only one to have read Arab Mig, others no ? He inclined ? If U say it....

Lol I very much doubt I'm the only one to have his books on arab MIGs. If someone else familiar with his work can cite evidence for a different view, let them do so.

GarryB wrote:
The F-14 is perfect,

Tom Cooper said that??! In MIG-23 Flogger in the Middle East.. he included accounts of F-14 losses. Even LAF pilots btw managed to get into a favorable position vis a vis Tomcats in mock combat.

therefore Iran is OK because they are keeping it in service.

Then why did Iran get newer jets?

GarryB wrote:He used to post on a british aircraft magazine forum and I spoke to him a lot... he has very interesting views for an American, but they remind me of the views of several members here.

The F-14 is perfect, therefore Iran is OK because they are keeping it in service.

The MiG-29 is rubbish and everything Soviet is basically a copy of American stuff.

US carrier groups are invincible... simultaneously able to see everything, yet at the same time invisible to all...

Needless to say we disagreed a lot.

I used to follow him in the past, until now I am following his facebook's blog, but after dubious articles in the mainstream press, when he wiped his feet on the face of this russian pilot collegue -see my link above-, I became more suspicious about him. But sincerly who could believe that F-14 downed more than 134 aircrafts ? And with AIM-54 Phoenix ? Meanwhile US failed to downed a single aircraft with either Sparrow or Phoenix.... Because Iran's middle age's regime claim ? Really ? It is the same hoax as israelis and their F-15, F-16 did down 100 syrian migs in 1982 -without a single proof-, because they are israeis, meanwhile they failed to reach their most objectives against syrians...I never claimed soviet hardware were/are invicible, however seeing the north vietnamese performances with their Mig-21 I can claim that US hardware's and combats's doctrine were and still are a total faillure. It is obvious nowadays that the Mig-21 nowadays is outperfomed in dogfihts. The Rafale, Typhoon, Mig-29, -no use to tell more about SU-27's familly- and the new chinese J-10 with its new TVC engine can easily outperform the old Fishbed.
Moreover, he claimed that the F-14 was exceptionnal, really ? Why ? The total fleet of F-14 was decomissionned, because it was for a good reason, and not because the F-14 was too much expensive. The likely answer was the F-14 failed to be a real interceptor, this aircraft failed to down more than 10 aircrafts -including iranian claims- in spite of its high price, it lead US aircraft to throw this fighter in the garbage of air history. It was one day envisaged by replacing all F-14's fleet by the naval version of the F-22. U know how this project turned into faillure. AFAIK since 1950 the only good US aircraft were F-86 sabre, and the F-5 freedom fighters, the others were at the best mediocre. Do not tell me that Gufl War, or Yugoslav's war were really test for US claims.

GarryB wrote:

Not a bad figther, but pretty much F-5A/E material. Has nothing on F-16C past Block 25/30.

It is a small light cheap fighter.

An AESA radar in the nose,and wingtip R-73 missiles, four R-77 missiles under the wings and belly positions for two R-77s and you have a potent little fighter.

Helmet mounted sight.

Nobody is going to fit an AESA radar to a MiG-21 - or F-5, do you know how much those radars cost? In fact, who is upgrading their 1980s MiG-29 or F-16 with AESA?