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Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB

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Post n°76

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:17 pm

The article I have read about the Sokol-1 describes it as being able to engage targets out of cover or moving or to be able to seek laser spots, which is very similar to the description of the Ugroza guidance system.

The Sokol-1 will be standard 125mm ammo so even the Sprut should be able to carry and use it, so any MBT model of Kurganets or Boomerang should also be able to use it too.

I suspect the Kurganets IFV will be armed to engage enemy (NATO) IFVs which means a 57mm gun at most supported by Kornet-EM missiles I suspect so Sokol-1 wont be an option for the IFV models of medium and light brigades.

The MBT of the medium and light brigades on the other hand could have 125mm guns so they could use such rounds.

Note the light brigades might have 57mm guns and missiles on their MBT/gun fire support vehicle because of weight limits.

TR1

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Post n°77

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

TR1 Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:05 pm

Viktor wrote:
On Vasiliy Fofanovs page LINK, under section 125mm guided rounds there is "Sokol-1" new generation ATGM fired from the gun. It would be interesting if that same round could be fired

from the Kurganets IFV.

Russian Tank guns Ammunition - Page 4 8df4de2d77441680cb152bd617706ac2

GarryB

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Post n°78

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:06 pm

Interesting data... note an 8km range against helos plus 12km range with super elevation in dug in positions.

(note the 125mm gun elevates to only about 25 or 30 degrees up so when digging a trench to hide the tank you can angle the floor so the front is much higher than the rear. This means that when dug in the tank can sit at the rear of the trench and be completely hidden from the enemy, but can drive forward and up so it can view and fire on the enemy and then reverse back down out of the line of fire. The point is that in the middle the vehicle will be climbing and therefore be able to angle its gun to near 45 degrees. If it can fire its missiles from those positions it will achieve its max range of 12km.)

medo

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Post n°79

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

medo Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:44 pm

Sokol-1 is Svir replacement in Russian tanks?

GarryB

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Post n°80

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:17 pm

Yes. Assuming it works as advertised...

collegeboy16

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Post n°81

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

collegeboy16 Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:11 pm

Sokol-1 is old sh1t, just rehashed Svir! Bring out the guided scramjet APFSDS rounds!

Morpheus Eberhardt

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Post n°82

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Morpheus Eberhardt Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:35 pm

collegeboy16 wrote:Sokol-1 is old sh1t, just rehashed Svir! Bring out the guided scramjet APFSDS rounds!

Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).

collegeboy16

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Post n°83

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

collegeboy16 Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:49 pm

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).

I stand corrected then, I thought it was a laser beam rider since I skimmed through what was written and saw laser. Anyway, learn something new everyday.

Regular

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Post n°84

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Regular Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:03 pm

So following that logic, can it be shot without LOS of target and guided by third party, like operator with LM? If yes, then it's helluva step forward and gives a lot of options in combined operations, be it defence or attack.

Morpheus Eberhardt

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Post n°85

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Morpheus Eberhardt Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:08 pm

collegeboy16 wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Actually Sokol-1 and 9M119 are quite unrelated. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the variant of Sokol-1 shown has a multimode guidance consisting of a fourth generation (lock-after-launch capable) passive imaging guidance plus an integrated semiactive laser guidance. The control mechanism is based on side-force thrusters. The projectile is actually conceptually very similar to a variant of Smel'chak 240 mm guided mortar projectile.

Conceptually the guidance system for this variant of Sokol-1 resembles the guidance system of some variants of the Russian Vega "short-range" air-to-air and surface-to-air missile system (not the Vega referring to some variants of S-200).

I stand corrected then, I thought it was a laser beam rider since I skimmed through what was written and saw laser. Anyway, learn something new everyday.

One thing I should mention is that the nose-cone on the Sokol-1 is a protective nose-cone. It actually separates after launch, exposing the homing head. The picture shows the protective nose-cone still attached.

GarryB

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Post n°86

Russian Tanks guns and ammunition

GarryB Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:15 pm

So following that logic, can it be shot without LOS of target and guided by third party, like operator with LM? If yes, then it's helluva step forward and gives a lot of options in combined operations, be it defence or attack.

Yes... it has SALH optional guidance or semi active laser homing... or laser spot homing where someone else can use a laser target marker to mark the target.

I should be clear however Russian and Soviet systems are different from US and western systems... they basically have two forms of weapons... direct fire and indirect fire laser guided... in both cases you can't just lob a weapon in a general direction and then use the laser to ensure a hit.

You need communication between the launcher and the target marker and the process is synchronised by computer so the coordinates of the launcher and the target are worked out and the aim is calculated, and then using a calculation based on flight time the round is fired/released and the computer in the target marker starts a count down. For a direct fire weapon 1 second from impact the laser turns on and marks the target and the missile or projectile fires side thruster rockets to adjust its trajectory to hit the target spot. For indirect weapons like laser guided bombs or artillery shells the time is 3 seconds to manouver which means the weapons are already aimed at the targets anyway... the laser guidance systems just improve accuracy to ensure a kill on moving point targets.

The laser target marker could be a Ka-52, or Mig-35 or a UAV, or a soldier on the ground or a tank or armoured vehicle... most modern Russian armoured vehicles would have the capacity to aim their own laser guided rounds and therefore should have the equipment to mark targets too.

The Sokol-1 however actually uses an optical guidance that has video processing that can detect moving objects and identify them for targeting.

It can see laser spots as well so if it detects a laser spot that is coded correctly it will home in on that, but could also detect a tank in the open especially if it is moving.

Sokol-1 is a direct fire weapon however and likely can't be used in the indirect role like most of the Russian and Soviet cannon calibres.

Stealthflanker

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Post n°87

Kinetic Energy Missiles (KEM)

Stealthflanker Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:29 am

Greetings.

As the title said.. i wonder if Russian have any interest toward hypervelocity kinetic kill missile like US MGM-166 LOSAT, MRM-KE and recently under development HATM/CKEM.

one advantage over conventional gun launched ATGM is reduced reaction time to enemy as those missile travels in exact same speed as conventional APFSDS. Thus reducing guidance time requirement where ATGM platform have to keep the missile at sight.

Werewolf

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Post n°88

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Werewolf Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:51 am

Stealthflanker wrote:Greetings.

As the title said.. i wonder if Russian have any interest toward hypervelocity kinetic kill missile like US MGM-166 LOSAT, MRM-KE and recently under development HATM/CKEM.

one advantage over conventional gun launched ATGM is reduced reaction time to enemy as those missile travels in exact same speed as conventional APFSDS. Thus reducing guidance time requirement where ATGM platform have to keep the missile at sight.

MRM-KE = cancelled.
LOSAT and the CKEM are cancelled too.

Vann7

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Post n°89

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Vann7 Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:13 am

Stealthflanker wrote:Greetings.

As the title said.. i wonder if Russian have any interest toward hypervelocity kinetic kill missile like US MGM-166 LOSAT, MRM-KE and recently under development HATM/CKEM.

one advantage over conventional gun launched ATGM is reduced reaction time to enemy as those missile travels in exact same speed as conventional APFSDS. Thus reducing guidance time requirement where ATGM platform have to keep the missile at sight.

Look for Russian hermes missiles.. not far from hypersonic speeds.. Mach 4.0 (hypersonic 5.0)
They will be used on Ka-52 hellicopter ,probably tanks ,and boats.. range from 20km to 100km.. it will be the competition
of Hellfire but much better. not sure if they already in service..

https://www.russiadefence.net/t339-the-missile-complex-hermes-will-replace-ataka

Zivo

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Post n°90

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Zivo Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:56 am

Hermes may not be hypersonic, but it'll be one hell of an ATGM. The missile itself is more that twice as fast as Hellfire, and the warhead is 3x larger.

Here's KBP's page.

http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=146&Itemid=414&lang=en

On the top-right of the page under "System composition" there's a link that says "Containerized "Hermes" Guided missile."

Hermes-A's max flight velocity is listed at 1000m/sec. Which is just a hair under Mach 3.

collegeboy16

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Post n°91

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

collegeboy16 Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:55 pm

Hermes looks like Pantsir missile, prolly same booster too. As for future rounds, I would like to see laser beam riding APFSDS, with mini
control surfaces to reduce drag and powerful booster around the penetrator. Scramjet seems ok, though it seems like a very expensive
option with exotic materials etc., whats important is that the KE round doesnt cost as much as m829a4/5, so your guys can use a decent amount per target to ensure a kill since decent future armour would do away with ammo/fuel in the crew compartment. For HEAT rounds, they should just continue what they do with Hermes, hypervelocity sounds impressive but HEAT doesnt depend on velocity so they prolly
shouldnt overdo the velocity department. What they should further develop would be anti-APS systems, the KE would rely on brute speed and mass while the HEAT rounds would rely on tricks to go past the defences, also top attack for both rounds would be nice.

GarryB

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Post n°92

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:40 pm

The Hermes uses the smaller rocket booster of the SA-19, which at 170mm calibre accelerates the missile to about 1km/s.

The later SA-22 with its 210mm calibre heavier booster rocket accelerates to 1.3km/s, but that really isn't enough for a kinetic weapon... of course that is not to say they couldn't make one if they wanted to.

Slimming down the HERMES and filling its core with a 2m long DU penetrator that weighs half the weight of the HE payload (15kgs vs 30kgs of the original HE payload) would greatly reduce size as DU is much denser than HE and therefore more compact.

Add a scramjet sustainer but reduce the weight of the projected missile and using the heavier booster you should be able to get burnout speeds of 1.4-1.5 km/s with the scramjet accelerating the penetrator to say 1.8-2km/s over the next few seconds so that at 15km it is travelling at 2km/s with a 15kg DU penetrator 2m long... that would be a good penetrator with simple and proven beam riding guidance... already used on Russian helos in a weapon that will use a launch tube that looks like standard weapons...

collegeboy16

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Post n°93

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

collegeboy16 Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:50 pm

Sounds awesome... though a 2m long, 15kg DU penetrator would most likely snap at impact...

Stealthflanker

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Post n°94

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Stealthflanker Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:13 am

Werewolf wrote:
MRM-KE = cancelled.
LOSAT and the CKEM are cancelled too.

Yeah, as well as the FCS program planned to use them. Nonetheless the basic technology are sound and well demonstrated.. just somewhat lack of interest.

which i found weird.

GarryB

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Post n°95

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

GarryB Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:58 pm

Sounds awesome... though a 2m long, 15kg DU penetrator would most likely snap at impact...

Why would it snap on impact?

If anything is going to snap on impact it would be a 7kg DU penetrator they currently use in MBT ammo because it is lighter and thinner.

Like most APFSDS penetrators it hits end on, which concentrates the entire mass of the projectile onto the point of the projectile... the longer it is the higher the mass being concentrated on the point at impact = better penetration. The heavier the projectile the more mass concentrated on the point = better penetration.

Yawing the penetrator before impact introduces a bending force that could make it break but a 15kg DU penetrator 2m long is rather less vulnerable to yaw than a lighter shorter penetrator...

which i found weird.

The size and weight of the rockets required means it is still rather more efficient to use a big gun.

Werewolf

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Post n°96

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Werewolf Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:31 am

It is so unnecessary even to consider Hermes-A to alter it into an APFSDS ATGM, it has a god damn 30kg Explosive WARHEAD, it can destroy almost everything and it won't make a big difference if it hits a civil car or a tank, it can destroy buildings,bridges and even bunkers will see devestating force.

That is what it looks like by 16kg Explosion of conventional ANFO and military uses explosives with higher brisance than a fertilizer can achieve and the Hermes-A uses almost the double of the explosive...

Zivo

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Post n°97

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Zivo Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:01 am

Werewolf wrote:It is so unnecessary even to consider Hermes-A to alter it into an APFSDS ATGM, it has a god damn 30kg Explosive WARHEAD, it can destroy almost everything and it won't make a big difference if it hits a civil car or a tank, it can destroy buildings,bridges and even bunkers will see devestating force.

That is what it looks like by 16kg Explosion of conventional ANFO and military uses explosives with higher brisance than a fertilizer can achieve and the Hermes-A uses almost the double of the explosive...

The fact that they managed to get 20km of range while using a 30kg warhead is an achievement. The launcher is even light enough to be deployed on most vehicles. The only ATGM with comparable range I can think of is Spike NLOS, and that missile doesn't even come close to Hermes-A's payload or velocity.

How powerful is 30kg of explosives? Well, the Hellfire ATGM achieves its ability to "defeat all known armor" with 9kg of explosives.

Last edited by Zivo on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total

TheArmenian

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Post n°98

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

TheArmenian Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:31 am

Zivo wrote:

Werewolf wrote:It is so unnecessary even to consider Hermes-A to alter it into an APFSDS ATGM, it has a god damn 30kg Explosive WARHEAD, it can destroy almost everything and it won't make a big difference if it hits a civil car or a tank, it can destroy buildings,bridges and even bunkers will see devestating force.

That is what it looks like by 16kg Explosion of conventional ANFO and military uses explosives with higher brisance than a fertilizer can achieve and the Hermes-A uses almost the double of the explosive...

The fact that they managed to get 20km of range while using a 30kg warhead is an achievement. The launcher is even light enough to be deployed on most vehicles. The only ATGM with comparable range I can think of is Spike LNOS, and that missile doesn't even come close to Hermes-A's payload or velocity.

How powerful is 30kg of explosives? Well, the Hellfire ATGM achieves its ability to "defeat all known armor" with 9kg of explosives.

A projectile that has 30 kg of explosive will disable any tank even if it is not an anti-tank projectile.
It is similar to a 152 mm artillery shell smashing on a tank. Even if it hits the most heavily armored part of the tank and does not penetrate, the damage will be significant to eliminate the tank from the battlefield until it is repaired.

collegeboy16

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Post n°99

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

collegeboy16 Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:20 am

Haha, Hermes-A would demolish an M1A2 from the front and light up the ammo at the back. It would be even more awesome when even light vehicles can carry Hermes-A. Hell, just give it a more powerful motor, top attack capability and APHE warhead and it will destroy any vehicle with soft roof armor, not just small holes you get with HEAT and APFSDS.
OTOH the APFSDS makers have a lot of work ahead of them, 130mm is not that far from 125mm, and whatever shape or form M1a3 will take its sure that it will require 1m+ penetration capabilities.

Last edited by collegeboy16 on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total

Werewolf

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Post n°100

Re: Russian Tank guns Ammunition

Werewolf Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:31 am

The row force of the impact with 1.3km/s is enough to make significant damage and the explosion of 30kg high brisant explosive will not only kill the crew it will have enough power to displace the turret from the hull, the canon will be ripped apart, tracks with wheels will see an uncommon increase in their travel path in horizontal achse, the crew will just die like a goldfish in a barrel with water and an firecracker.
30kg can destroy big massive buildings and bridges, for example bridges get blown off with only 10kg explosives, one Hermes-A that hits the middle of the bridge or the bridge piers and it is gone, a normal ATGM can't do so.

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