Chinese weapons/MIC issues

No they are not far behind China. In most things Russia is head, but just barely at this point as China has worked really hard to get where it is at. They have been very smart in purchasing knowledge directly related to certain defense products or tangentially related. Thry got Stirling aip tech abroad. It actually is not the best out there but it has improved their conventional submarine submerge time. Russia has been on and off developing AIP tech but it has been put 9n the back burner as they utilize their electric diesel subs almost strictly for shallow water use and they have the second largest nuclear submarine fleet in the world.
Their active phases array technology is NOT ahead of Russia's. In fact they are equals in this, and Russia helped them in this field. Initially they were going to buy Russian radars for the j-20. As far as civil and military jet engines are concerned they are about 10 and 5 years behind respectively. Some aspects of jet engine tech even further back. For example they only just started doing ws-15 testing this year when Russia was doing this in 2017. China openly admits they still do purchase Russian engines for niche purposes. For example the Chinese aerobatics teams still use and prefer the al-31fn engines because they are more responsive particularly in reheat. The Chinese are a little further behind in civil aviation engines but are catching up fast here has thry were very smart in buying western tech like key gas turbine parts, etc.

So no, they are not ahead in everything. Thry are behind in a few things, ahead in others, and are rapidly catching up in everything. Chinese are underestimated by many westerners. To their own peril.

OK, if the Chinese already "copy" everything, why does China have what Russia does not have, that is, AIP propulsion on submarines, AFAR radars, universal launch complexes on Chinese surface warships that Gorshkov frigates do not have. The Chinese did not crash the first serial J-20 or the first prototype Il-112. I love and defend Russia in this battle against Ukroshitstan and NATO, but the Russians are already far, far behind China.

They copied US vls systems.

Chinese never talk about their crashes. Real numbers are way higher than russians.

Rofar isn't in sercice at all. Prototypes may not be working that good, you know propagabda ?

AIP can be just a pack of battzries. Doesn't mean anything. Western aip are tge more developed specially in nordic countries or japan, yet no one is rushing on them since it's dangerous to have onboard and extremly costly. Russia has nuk subs that can last longer and are at least 3 generation ahead of China. Yasen-M is already 40 years ahead at least meanwhile Husky will be even better.

Podlodka77 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Podlodka77 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:J-20's characteristics are heavily in doubt especially when India floated out that their radars picked it up flying over Tibet (J-20) few years ago.

I can see it being a rather cheap and basic jet of the 5th gen to get something quick out and en mass.  But I wouldn't put much into.

That may be true but it may just be Indian propaganda. I rather believe that it is the latter.
The Chinese have mastered most weapon systems as well as their production, while the only exception is nuclear submarines. Look at what planes and ships or armored vehicles of all kinds were built in the nineties and what they are building today.

They haven't mastered much dude.

Their tanks have issues. Their drones are disliked.  There are others.

The jet is essentially a MiG 1.42 with an updated shell and electronics.  This wasn't made secret years ago.  They still had issues with their domestic engines but went with it anyway due to politics.

Indian media can be bad and I will attest to it, BUT, China has a complete lock down of their media and that is also a reason why we don't hear of crashes for example.

Chinas industry for decades survived off of copies and mass production. I don't think they would be quick to change.

We can go further with the various other industries but we will stick to this one.  I don't believe a single thing that comes out of China. I remember them saying how advanced their Type 96 was compared to Russian tanks, till its tracks fell off during the competition is Moscow. Or how amazing their drones were until they started failing after 1 use.

We can agree to disagree as we are only getting fraction of the news.  But I'm not crazy about Chinese systems due to real lack of info on them.  Western press goes off of Chinese press and well, that's the end of it.

Russia has a bad habit of heavy testing of their jets, tanks and other systems for near a decade before fielding them. But the reason behind it is to test every little thing vehemently. USA just goes all in at once and then fix problems later at massive costs.  China is doing much the same but they buy existing platforms to cut costs and corners.  Nothing wrong with that.

OK, if the Chinese already "copy" everything, why does China have what Russia does not have, that is, AIP propulsion on submarines, AFAR radars, universal launch complexes on Chinese surface warships that Gorshkov frigates do not have. The Chinese did not crash the first serial J-20 or the first prototype Il-112. I love and defend Russia in this battle against Ukroshitstan and NATO, but the Russians are already far, far behind China.

Russia has AFAR radars. Actually, it's Russia that has been setting up Chinas AD structure as part of a major agreement.  AIP is what ISOS said, and that is questionable at best. Universal launch complex was something soviets were also working on for quite some time.  NEBO M is actually using GaAS tr modules.  Possibly GaN now.  Far more active too.  Russian ships are using GaN modules from NPO Istok.  The biggest reason why Russia refrained from using AESA for their jets is multitude of reasons actually.  One major one is lack of proper cooling that would work for its quad pack of TR modules.  The second is the higher failure rate among TR modules for general AESA.  Third is not being able to provide enough power to be able to fully utilize the TR modules in the radar.  And lastly it was the price.  Alternatively, Irbis E was a cheaper yet as effective solution.  N036 is simply an AFAR variant of Irbis E with similar performance due to overall power output of the power supply.

And as I said, they won't mention crashes or failures. They never do. These failures always come out from other countries who ha e their equipment or tested it.

China mass produces surface ships and its good that they do. They concentrate hard on it and I give them massive props for it.

Russias aerospace is still far ahead of Chinas. And their radar tech.  Remember the failed "Quantum" radar they used in Syria? That came from China.  Another failure from China but called a wunderweapon.  China even copied the American playbook.

China though is leaps and bounds ahead in manufacturing capabilities and surface ship building. But like ISOS said, AIP isn't magic. It's the reason why Russia never continued on with it as their high endurance subs are nuclear and their coastal defense are Desiel electric to which Kilo is still the quietest of them all.

When I wrote about China, I wrote that they build everything from the needle to the bridge at high speed and extremely efficiently.
I don't like it when someone writes about China in the context of "everything is Made in China" is bad beacuse the Chinese have less accidents in their army than the USA or Russia. Isos's Rafale (40+ years old design) is a flying bucket compared to the J-20 and China has a fifth generation aircraft while the EU does not. Overpriced crap like most crap that comes with Made in EU and Made in USA labels.
Do European and Russian warships have universal launch missile complexes like Type-052D and Type-055 ? NET, NEIN, NOPE ! China has more ZTZ-99 tanks than the UK, France, Italy, Spain and Germany have tanks combined. Should I mention that the complete Chinese military equipment is only a few years old on average, while in the EU, USA or Russia most of the equipment is still from the eighties and early nineties ?
If Chinese aircraft engines are already so bad, then why are there no recorded plane crashes ?
Earlier, some wrote that they think the Chinese have more accidents with their planes. Do you really think that today it is possible to hide the crash of a plane or the wreck of a warship? They are not matchboxes.
They built dozens and dozens of frigates and destroyers, so I'm surprised that no major damage was recorded. It's not just a question of technology, it's also a question of the attitude towards the army and I'm SURE more discipline than in the West or in Russia.
How many people died of corona in the USA and Russia and how many in China? Discipline !

I GUARANTEE YOU THAT IN 10 YEARS ALMOST NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WILL BUY EUROPEAN OR RUSSIAN MILITARY EQUIPMENT. We will wait for the year 2032 and I am almost sure that it will be as I wrote. If there is no major world conflict, we will have the EU, Japan and Australia as American dogs, while in the "East" (more precisely, the "rest" of the world) China will be the undisputed number 1.
In the "west" everyone will smoke what the USA gives them while the rest of the world will be under the influence of China.

LYLE is right about what he wrote, because the pressure and hatred of the West towards Russia is something that is sick.
That is already the complete truth, I agree.


China is another culture, a culture far more effective than the increasingly decadent and degenerate Christianity. Chinese time is coming and it will pass sometime in the future because nothing is eternal.
Writing about the "innovativeness" of both Russia and the West in relation to China is increasingly ridiculous to me. Both the West and Russia use technology that they mostly produced back in the seventies and eighties; F-15, F-16, F-18, Abrams, Su-27, MiG-29, T-72, etc.. If the Chinese have achieved what they have achieved in the last 10+ years, I have no doubt that they will now not only go and further at the same pace - but that the Chinese will surpass everyone.
All Serbs love Russia and I am one of them, but the comparison of Russia with China can no longer be on an equal basis, that time is already passing by. On the Chinese side, there is efficiency and far greater innovation than on the Russian side or western side. Rather, the Chinese introduced new howitzers and new fifth-generation aircraft, as well as warships. And the damned USA only produces F-35s, which are not very impressive to anyone, while it is assumed that China will also introduce the sixth-generation aircraft before USA.

Isos wrote:

OK, if the Chinese already "copy" everything, why does China have what Russia does not have, that is, AIP propulsion on submarines, AFAR radars, universal launch complexes on Chinese surface warships that Gorshkov frigates do not have. The Chinese did not crash the first serial J-20 or the first prototype Il-112. I love and defend Russia in this battle against Ukroshitstan and NATO, but the Russians are already far, far behind China.

They copied US vls systems.

Chinese never talk about their crashes. Real numbers are way higher than russians.

Rofar isn't in sercice at all. Prototypes may not be working that good, you know propagabda ?

AIP can be just a pack of battzries. Doesn't mean anything. Western aip are tge more developed specially in nordic countries or japan, yet no one is rushing on them since it's dangerous to have onboard and extremly costly. Russia has nuk subs that can last longer and are at least 3 generation ahead of China. Yasen-M is already 40 years ahead at least meanwhile Husky will be even better.

Copied vls? How, just by looking simular? China has a vls system that uses both hot and cold launches, basicly the best from east and west.

If they never talk about thier crashes how does anyone know? Could be worse then Russia, could be better.

AIP is a bit more then just batteries. Russia has been trying to get this working since the 90s now and still havnt. China has 15-20 subs with AIP by now.

Copied vls? How, just by looking simular? China has a vls system that uses both hot and cold launches, basicly the best from east and west.

If they never talk about thier crashes how does anyone know? Could be worse then Russia, could be better.

AIP is a bit more then just batteries. Russia has been trying to get this working since the 90s now and still havnt. China has 15-20 subs with AIP by now.[/quote]



Project 22350 is well armed for a ship of such displacement, but even that frigate does not have universal VLS as the Chinese Type-052D and Type-055 have. Only the Chinese and the USA have such ships in the world with universal VLS at the moment, because European and Russian ships use special launchers for air defense systems. Here is another example that the Chinese did not "copy" anything because as far as I know the Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga did not fall into the possession of the Chinese Navy.

Japan is way ahead in AIP and after operating one in service they decided that the next model they made would get rid of the AIP system and the oxygen tanks needed to make it work and just replace it all with just more lithium ion batteries instead.

It seems the AIP is so low powered it can only trickle charge the batteries so instead of running diesels for a few hours while snorkeling they had to basically hide and do nothing for a day or two while using the AIP to recharge the batteries because the AIP running all the systems didn't have enough excess power to also charge the batteries so essentially it shuts down for a day doing nothing to charge the batteries... it is very quiet but also mostly blind and largely useless while charging its batteries using the AIP system.

They realised the cost and compromise and issues that it actually made more sense to massively increase the number of Li Ion batteries to massively increase the subs operational time and use a normal diesel engine to recharge in 6-8 hours running in snorkel mode... less down time and more sneaky beaky time with the extra batteries.

Of course I would think one of the nuclear batteries the Russians make for their space craft could be fitted to one of their SSKs to charge the batteries while submerged... but the AIP systems they are working on are much more complex and potentially vastly better too because they run on normal diesel fuel, which is available at any port in the world.

Here is another example that the Chinese did not "copy" anything because as far as I know the Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga did not fall into the possession of the Chinese Navy.

Easy to steal information... no F-35 fell into the hands of China either, but they have versions of their own... that actually look better than the original with two engines instead of one.

The Russian naval SAMs come in a much wider variety than US SAMs which is basically Standard and Sparrow, the Soviet cruise missile tubes are 10m long which is a waste of a tube if you are loading much shorter SAMs into it.

Universal launch tubes only make sense if they are suitable, and the Russians using the UKSK launch tubes for SAMs would greatly limit the number of missiles they could carry for no real benefit.

Podlodla77 there arent a lot of Christian's left in the west. Scholars even say we live in a "post Christian society". Seems the madness of post-modern culture increases as faith decreases. But that is for another topic. My apologies for posting off topic.

I'll keep reminding people that mass production doesn't equal quality at all. There is no correlation besides degradation of quality depending on speed and cheating out on manufacturing.

China has a strong manufacturing base but I would rather take a Russian, American, German tank over a Chinese. As Hole pointed out, it's a modernized hull of old Soviet export tank designs.  Some additions added but none I would call revolutionary.

Their more advanced systems had rather spotty performance in the hands of others and these aren't let's say jets but tanks, apc's, radar systems and drones.

The more popular Chinese jets and tanks are actually mostly of foreign designed and components like the Jf-17, AL Khalid tank (actually a T-80 modified by Ukraine and stolen by China. Renamed as MBT 2000), their AD is either S-300 knock off, Buk knockoff or Patriot knockoff.  J-20 is a modernized MiG 1.42, the J-10 was an Israeli jet, their subs are knockoffs too of older Soviet designs.

But it's fine, people can think that China is so far ahead of everyone without the real experience.  They thought this way about themselves back in the 70's too. Didn't work out for them either (they were adamant their designs were better than the Soviet systems they knocked off).  Leopard doesn't change its spots. And China has their media in their grips. Like I said, you won't see it's mil failures until: it goes into a war of its own, or someone uses their systems.

But they sure look pretty their systems.  I wouldn't discount their missiles, I will say they are probably far better, more accurate and not much more expensive than Iran's.

Their systems aren't bad. I would say they are probably of a fine value. But I would choose a Su-57 over the MiG 1.42 that is J-20. Canards were used in lack of proper 3d tvc engines.  But as a fast VLO interceptor, it's a fine jet.

I would actually have been in favor of Russia working with China in Russias surface fleet for instance. Russian weapons on Chinese hulls. Would help fix a major issue with russias lack of proper fleet.  But Russia did have nightmares with Chinese desiel marine engines.

Polornez used by Belarus is actually an MLRS system that was Chinese. And that system is actually top notch

The core problem is that people see improvements and advancements but don't see the limitations and boundaries.

Some biological cells can double every hour... it does not take a genius to realise the longer that continues the more mind blowing that becomes... start with a single cell and within a year you have a biomass the size of planet earth... except the obvious problem that when the cell gets to the edge of the petri dish and runs out of food or someone turns the heat down and they freeze then the growth... amazingly rapid as it seems suddenly stops.

Many of you wont remember but even as late as the early 1990s in any big Chinese cities the streets were wall to wall... with Chinese people on bicycles... I saw an interview of a US official from a car company saying their goal was to get those people off bicycles into motor cars... and very quickly they achieved that... and their next goal became to penetrate into the country side because people in Rural China still rode bikes and not cars.

Is that progress... yeah... sure I guess... amusing considering in the west the trend they are pushing is to ride bicycles again... but not cheap light simple bikes they used to ride, but expensive western electric bikes probably made in China anyway.

The point is that even the greedy Americans are now realising pushing the wasteful US culture of the car and fast food is doing serious damage to the planet.

The consumer throw away society is creating landfill problems, and recycling is a joke... it basically meant sending plastic to third world countries to deal with.

The development of China and Russia and India and other non west aligned countries of the world is a good thing... Chinas success in no way damages Russia and Russian success is in no way a threat to China... the idea that everyone will be buying everything from China in 20 years time is ridiculous... it has never happened before that everyone bought weapons from one country and it never will.

Chinas amazing growth and development didn't happen by accident... they were very smart and played the game of the west till they got to the point where they could do as they pleased... essentially the same thing Russia did as well but without the massive western investment in anything other than energy.

Russian experience in the Ukraine showed some problems and issues with most of their weapons but they also found a lot of their weapons did what they wanted them to do and did it rather well... better than western weapons which appeared on paper to be better... it is pretty clear that Javelin is crap and that Kornet is heavier and in a different class but is all round a much better weapon... generally you didn't compare heavy ATGMs with light ATGMs because the cost difference meant the heavy ATGMs were too expensive to buy in the same numbers as the smaller missiles, but Kornet is a fraction of the price of the Javelin and is all round a much better weapon.

Russia is now working on battle tested attack drones but also mini SAMs to defend rear area convoys from artillery (rocket and tube) which could be applied across the board from rear area convoys to frontline troops and on ships and even aircraft...

Regarding the Chinese they have some impressive looking new weapons, but without combat experience it is hard to say how they will perform.

They have saved lots of money and time by adopting western and Soviet weapon designs but they haven't just blindly replicated them, they have adapted them to their own needs and requirements... they have an F-35 copy but either could not or (more likely) chose not to waste the time and money replicating the super engine it uses and instead substituted two much smaller and likely cheaper and simpler engines to make the design simpler and cheaper and in my opinion better.

Everyone has clever engineers... the west has dominated for centuries because their money and power has attracted the brightest and the best... in fact Asia is doing that now.... we have adverts here in New Zealand by Hyundai telling us about bright clever New Zealanders they gave prizes to with scholarships to work for them and solve problems... for them... they are openly admitting to head hunting our brightest and best and shipping them off overseas to develop technology to make them money... and it is not just them... western universities use their name to get the brightest and best from around the world to go to their university to learn and help local companies in research and development and make money...

Their core problem is the west is busy destroying itself... let us not interrupt them with infighting between countries outside the west because that is what they think will save them.

Changing the face of war': China unveils golden veil that turns missiles into planes befuddling radars

China has developed a camouflage veil, what is now being dubbed the "golden veil", and it is set to revolutionise warfare, turning deadly missiles into inconspicuous passenger planes on radar screens, media reports said.

This fascinating veil was developed by a team of Chinese scientists and reportedly has the potential to alter the entire dynamics of conflicts. In a recent publication in the Chinese Journal of Radio Science, Zong Yali and her colleagues revealed that the veil, composed of fine gold-plated metal threads intricately woven into a complex geometry, can deceive sophisticated air defence systems.

The technology, developed in northwest China, not only confuses radar signals but also shortens the response time for military commanders, something that will play a major role in affecting the outcome of the conflict itself.

Zong, an associate professor of radar science at Northwestern Polytechnical University, while pointing at the Laboratory testing, explained that the technology can also significantly amplify the radar of a flying target from less than one to over 30 decibels per square metre, media reports said.

This level of radar reflection is comparable to that of large commercial airplanes like the Boeing 737 or Airbus A320 when viewed from specific angles, placing China a notch up by boosting its defence capabilities.

What sets the golden veil apart is its flexibility, allowing it to be deployed or folded like an umbrella, enabling missiles or aircraft to seamlessly switch between visible and stealth modes during flight.

The folding structure, made of lightweight carbon fibre materials, provides the necessary strength for military service. Moreover, the veil can alter its shape and size randomly, creating perplexing patterns to befuddle computer and radar operators.

Zong highlighted the significance of this innovation in the evolving landscape of electronic warfare. “Electronic warfare has become more complex than ever. New electronic countermeasure equipment and tools are entering service at an unprecedented speed,” Zong reportedly said in the paper, adding, “They are changing the face of war."

Unlike existing radar reflection technology, the golden veil boasts a relatively low cost and weight. Zong's team reportedly said that the materials used are readily available in China's industrial production chain.

https://www.wionews.com/world/changing-the-face-of-war-china-unveils-golden-veil-turning-missiles-into-planes-befuddling-radars-672481