US/NATO operations in Afghanistan:

Basic external ballistics tells me this is not a sniper rifle and anyone suggesting so works in the marketing department of the company that makes it.
Very simply this round is filled with HE which is not very dense and certainly not very high velocity which suggests this round will be badly effected by cross wind.

Shooting through windows at 750m sounds very optimistic.

Uh, I highly doubt you can direct fire at 450 meters with a 40 mm grenade.

It is like shooting at targets at 800m with an M16. On paper it is possible, in combat it never happens and even if you get the opportunity there is little point.

450m is the ballistic max range of this weapon with the stock positioned on the ground. The red and white range scales meet at 450m. Normal target engagement range is 100-200m where the technique can be used. Targets at 400m plus are unlikely to be spotted by a grunt in the field unless they are firing tracer or the muzzle flash is visible.

We're talking rifle squads here, mobile men doing quick jobs. RPGs just level the room, this kills anyone inside while still having more ammo, better than an RPG in the AP role. Besides, it's only $25 per grenade.

A foot patrol consisting of a dozen men can have most of the men carrying RPG-22s which are only 3kgs each. Plus an RPG guy with a launcher... and of course on a foot patrol in an area where the target can ambush from longer range you would equip with a few extra SVDs/RPKs/PKMs too.

I would want real confirmation of the $25 per grenade costs.

According to this:

http://www.atk.com/customer_solutions_missionsystems/documents/sw_iw_xm25.pdf

The point target range is 500m and 750m is for area targets.

I rather doubt there is much difference in weight between this 25mm round and the Soviet 30mm grenade. The whole 30mm grenade weighs 350 grams and a belt of 29 rounds in a drum with links weighs about 16kgs.

No, it can't kill a fly but it can go inside a window of a room at 750 m. Yes, you can spot a room at 750 m, 4x magnification thermal sight standard, that means night fight capability as well. Standard marines are trained to hit a car at 500, x4 sight only helps at 750.

See above pdf.

Yes, yes, and how much rooms can you take out with an ATGM? 3 if you're carrying the ammo. With this, 6 per magazine.

With METIS-M the standard load is 5 missiles with a team of 3 men. with two men carrying two missiles and one man carrying one missile and the launcher.
Much heavier and much more cumbersome but accurate to kill rooms to 2km.

No, you can identify a weapon from a Beretta to a RPG-7 with those sights. If you doubt me, talk to your Squad leader, he'll have a 10x magnification binocular ready.

The AH-64D Apache has excellent all weather day night optics and cannot discriminate between a rocket launcher and a camera.

Someone hiding in a room with the window open a crack is a very difficult target for a thermal sight because thermals can't see through glass.

Even if you can clearly see a group 600m away all carrying Kalashnikovs how can you tell if they are Taleban or local militia?

Usually you can only tell when they start opening fire on you.

If they have a gun I don't know who the target is, I'm killing him. Very simple. And yes, if someone does invade the U.S. and apply that policy than I have no sympathy for 2nd Amendment followers.

The problem there is this is a war your side started and you are supposed to be rebuilding that country. When you start opening up on anyone with a gun in a country full of guns and people trying to survive then you are not only going to make a lot of enemies very fast, you are also going to undermine any attempts to bolster the Afghan Army and Police into a viable force.

If you have that sort of attitude then withdraw your troops and just have the B-52 as the game changer and just kill everyone.

We're talking Afghanistan here, most Mujaheddin don't use muzzle suppressors.

7.62mm calibre AKs don't have a noticeable muzzle flash during the day time and at night I have only seen a faint blue muzzle flash which hardly gives away my position.

The SVD and PKM both have significant muzzle flash hiders.

Lol, how large? 2 PGs for each man that's 16 RPGs total. Not a lot. 6 grenades per magazine, and presumably, lets just say for fun, 4 mags for the operator. Already, I can destroy 50% more rooms than you.

That would be true only if they both had the same effect. How many rooms are you expecting the enemy to be firing from? Are you assuming the Pechenegs and SVDs in the unit will not be used? There will also likely be at least two guys in the unit with 40mm underbarrel grenade launchers plus 10 grenades each.
Firepower is not really an issue for them.

Not accurate enough to hit a guy in the left eye from 800 meters away and not powerful enough to take down the whole house. It's a compromise, and that's what weapon designs are about.

If you are trying to say this is another tool for the tool box then I agree. It is the idea that somehow this weapon will make the Taleban ineffective and completely change the war that I disagree with.

We're not shooting at Afghan government if you haven't noticed.

When the Soviets were there in the 1980s plenty of government forces went bush and joined the Muj for a bit and when they came back they generally got back pay. I have read that the Soviet soldiers having to work with the Afghans had more respect for the abilities of the ex Muj afghan government forces than for the rest.
None could be trusted.

Yes, I can. It's quite easy to factor in obliquity into RHAe calculations. 60 degrees obliquity doubles LOS protection. And yes, I do know that penetration factors are LOS, and usually involve a target at 90 degree obliquity. But I don't think Rosonboronexport lies, they usually put their figures at how many mm at a target how far away angled at how many degrees. For RPG-29, they say 600. Other places say 750. My calculations say 850.

You misunderstand what I am trying to say. When you quote real life penetrations you can't be sure what angle the rocket hit... take a vertical plate of normal rolled steel 50mm thick. Now angle that at 60 degrees and if you shoot at it and your projectile hits horizontally then the projectile is not penetrating at 90 degrees 50mm of plate. The formula is the thickness of penetration equals the plate thickness divided by the cosine of the angle of impact.
The cosine of 60 degrees is 0.5 so the thickness to be penetrated is 100mm. Because of this the maker of the tank will not say the armour is 50mm thick they will say it is the equivelent of 100mm of armour.
If in the real world an HEAT 40mm grenade hits the armour that is able to penetrate 50mm of steel plate but because it is a low velocity weapon that came in at an angle of incidence of 60 degrees and penetrates the armour... your estimates above would give the weapon a penetration capability of 100mm but in actual fact it was just a fortunate hit angle and the actual penetration performance is 50mm. Of course there are lots of weak spots on armour as well that might also influence penetration, like hitting a handle or wheel before it reaches the main armour.

GarryB wrote:

It's not a Grenade launcher, it's not a Sniper rifle, it's a cross, which is why it's such a "game changer".

It is just a more accurate grenade launcher. The requirements for sniper rifles are a bit tighter than being able to hit a car at 500m.

And how can it be called a game changer till it has actually changed a game? The introduction of anything will change a game... sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.

It's a metaphor, because before a LRP could get ambushed by a squad sized element hiding behind a blown out house somewhere higher in elevation, this thing effectively takes that cover away by circumventing a wall or a log to hide behind.

You do realize this isn't a 30 mm Soviet grenade, and it is not belt fed and in a drum. It's in a magazine with a 6 round capacity.

Yes, I do, because the 30mm Soviet grenade is much larger and much more powerful. A burst of several grenades from an automatic launcher will be much more effective than a single grenade fired at a target.

This weapon is all about where the US military wants to go with its super soldier stuff, but I personally think an AGS-30 wielded to the front rack of a quad motor bike with a trailer with extra ammo makes much more sense as a light support vehicle for foot patrols.

Then that's where we disagree, I'd prefer one accurate grenade fragging the enemy rather than putting a couple 40 mm on their position and risk more collateral damage. It's all a PR game, you know that, more civies you kill more enemies and worser it gets at home.

So in any case, Long range AP area roles, goes to the XM25.

What if the enemy are 900m away and are firing at you with PKMs?

Get in range, or call for air support, or mortar, or artillery, or any guy that's good with the M24. If all else fails, meet them tomorrow.

One guy can hold enough ammo to demolish far more rooms than the Metis-M can. And this is still Afghanistan, why do you need a 2 km range?

Because sitting on top of a mountain at a base you can see much further than you can shoot. When the Soviets were in Afghanistan they used all sorts of strange weapons to extend their reach to try to match their vision. AGS-17 30mm grenade launchers, SPG-9 recoilless rocket launchers, ZU-23 twin barrel towed 23mm anti aircraft cannon, 14.5mm KPV HMGs, 12.7mm HMGs were all used as perimeter defence mainly because of their range to allow that group of afghans on the other side of the valley to be engaged. METIS-M rockets have no guidance and are relatively cheap to make so using them with HE warheads against groups of enemy or rooms makes a lot of sense. The fact that they are guided reduces the chance of collateral damage. Even right to the last second the missile can be redirected into the ground if necessary to avoid a mistake.

At the cost of mobility, and still price. Even an unguided ATGM costs more than a 25 mm grenade from a XM25, I'm not saying this replaces all weapons, we still use M2s and Mk.19s on the OPs to suppress at long ranges, but if I or any soldier were on a foot patrol and not subject to the cover of my OP, I'd take a XM25 over a Metis any day, more ammunition, does the job, and still light enough for me to carry my own stuff.

This thing has a standard x4 Thermal scope.

Thermal scopes can identify a man at long range but they are not very good for identifying specific people. The target could be Asian or black or eskimo and you wouldn't be able to tell.

We're not going to try to assassinate Osama Bin Ladin with a XM25, we're going to whack anyone with a weapon.

Besides, ROE, anyone with a gun that's not Coalition is hostile.

So Afghan Army and Police get shot on sight?

They're uniformed, no, if they aren't yes.

Or of course, tell them not to carry guns, why do you think we train their Police?

There is no law and order in their country... even in cities the control is patchy. These guys have had guns for as long as there have been guns. It wasn't till the US and Saudi Arabia flooded the region with Chinese AKs that they had modern weapons, most of the early 1980s the weapons were from the previous invader... 303 rifles. After a few years of Soviet occupation chinese AKs flooded the market and there were AKs everywhere. Now, before you have fully trained an Afghan Army and an Afghan Police force you think those militias are just going to hand over their guns and rely on you to protect them? When you can't even protect yourselves?
Be realistic.

I am being very realistic. We've already ousted the Taliban and now they are subject to our rule in a non-imperialistic sense. Our job now is not only to kill the enemy but to provide a means to live. We have actually trained their Army and Police, and eventually they will be self-sufficient. if those militias don't, you know what always will happen. Can't shoot down a Hellfire with an AK.

Also, stay on topic.

When you're in a dark room any light contrasts.

So does a cigarette lighter when you are lighting up a smoke.

Who lights a cigarette every couple of minutes?

RPGs destroy houses, XM25 kills people.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, RPGs will take out a good sized room but the 40mm anti personel rockets certainly will not bring down a house. And the advertising material tells us the Xm 25 should be good at killing people but we really don't know for sure yet.

Why bring 2 types of rockets when you're weight conscious? You can watch the videos yourself, good shrapnel dispersion. But of course, abiding by the Russian rule, I of course will not take the manufacturer's word for it. We'll see. But as portable area effect AP weaponry goes, XM25 beats RPG-7 in mobility, which is very crucial.

Assuming they have Pechenegs and SVDs, and lets assume they also have Mortar support, then you know what we have?

[quite]Fairly likely they will have PKMs rather than Pechenegs.

And the purpose of this weapon is that it can be brought on a foot patrol and that it is accurate enough to discriminate the target from things you don't want to hit.
Personally I think something like a motorised 30mm grenade launcher or even Vasilek mortar would be useful for dealing with ambushes from 600-1,000m range which is outside 5.56mm range.

Every squad has a SAW gunner, every Marine can shoot 500m, which is enough in an Urban environment, assuming you replace the Grenadier with a guy with the XM25 that's basically an uberized 40 mm grenade launcher. Rooms cleared from 500m away, enemies neutralized, we go home with a guy shot in his vest.

The problem is ambushes with the enemy firing from 600-1,000m with SVDs and PKMs and then disappearing. If they had any brains they would set up IEDs and landmines at the ambush point so that as the patrol spreads off the road to find cover they find the landmines and set off IEDs.

You get very ancy when U.S. media over hype things and I wouldn't blame you but you got to look pass that.

I don't like the media in general... and there was a time when most people didn't like it when their news was overhyped. When did people get so jaded that news about a new weapon was not exciting enough, it has to be the new weapon that will end the war.
It is already in use, so lets see all the reports of the lives it has saved and the thousands of terrs it has killed without injuring new born babies in cots next to PKM and SVD firing positions.

I can see it is potentially useful, but it will actually have some faults too.
It will be a success if it is used against targets at 500m most of the time. If, as I suspect most of the time it is used at 100-300m then there are other grenade launchers that can already do that job with much heavier and more effective grenades.

No, I know what the Lower Glacis protection level of a Challenger 2 is. The fact that a RPG-29 got through it meant that it can go through that stated protection level and then some.

What is the actual thickness of the lower glacis plate on a Challenger 2? Not the protection level, which would be the thickness divided by the Cosine of the angle of penetration, but the base thickness.

If you tell me the normal angle of the plate you can use the protection level to work out the actual thickness equivalent of steel plate. (it is not homogeneous steel... as you know it is made of layers of all sorts of materials)

lulldapull wrote:

Viktor wrote:Like every other major offensive it will end up with bunch of dead taliban witch changes nothing.

You forgot to mention that it also ends up with a bunch of dead NATO troops and assorted mercenaries.

GarryB wrote:Companies like Blackwater are not the solution in Afghanistan.

Training an Afghan Army and Police force that can stand on its own, and developing an economy that creates jobs for young men and women so they have an alternative to joining a militant group, and can build a future for themselves and their families is the only lasting solution.

Hunting down every last Taleban will not work. Their crime was not 11/9, their crime was not handing OBL over to the Americans when the Americans demanded it. Hardly a crime that warrants the genocide of the entire group.

GarryB wrote:Its hovering performance will be useful, but the vibration caused by just being a helicopter will require excellent physical and electronic stabilisation, otherwise that powerful camera is just a waste of time.

BTW a 1.8 gigapixel camera would create an image with 1.8 billion or 1 800 000 000 pixels, so with a standard 4:3 image aspect ratio that would be something like a 48,000 pixel by 37,500 pixel image.

That would take a while to load into photoshop...

GarryB wrote:Hey... don't knock photoshop...

I am sure that running on a super computer it will be smooth as silk... but I bet they wont be running a 32 bit version of XP because they will need more than just over 3 GB of RAM for those images...

Regular wrote:It was self serving good. Someone got very rich for all those contracts and lobyism.