[Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

He never said cancelled for either of said equipment. Please provide evidence he has.

I'll wait

miketheterrible wrote:He never said cancelled for either of said equipment. Please provide evidence he has.

I'll wait

And I'll wait until they introduce Armata.

Borisov said:

Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

Every single word in that statement is complete BS. He is not only after canceling Armata but Boomerang as well. I can't see Kurganets lasting too long either.

Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

Hmm.  I don't see the word canceled.  Do you?

Matter of fact is, Russia wouldn't have spent the money it has producing the tech if they don't intend to purchase it. If they intend to introduce some of that tech in other jets, tanks and what not fine. Boomerang is much more needed than Armata as the BTR-80 series is really out of date and needs to be gone asap. Rest is questionable. He never said canceled but you got to hand it to him, he makes a point - why purchase all of this if it barely is beyond what is currently fielded? He is obviously doing something that escaped most of the rest of you - forcing the MiC to produce it cheaper or improve it. Armata's case - cheaper. And he never said canceled, he said not produced en mass. Meaning it wont be 2,500 tanks in a few years. Maybe in a decade or two.

I seriously do not get the mass hysteria that revolved around this site. Either english escapes a lot of you, or you just read something that isn' there.

BTW, maybe China has their Borisov too?

https://vpk.name/news/224532_kitai_moderniziroval_su35_i_serezno_uvelichil_ego_boevuyu_mosh.html

esmotrya that the fifth generation fighter J-20 are now being delivered to the Chinese army, due to limitations associated with costs and production volumes, planes of the fourth generation and generation "4+" will be in service for quite a long time. Therefore, the improvement of combat vehicles-level su-27 is a critical need to improve the combat capability of the army.

https://www.toutiao.com/a6586840927761859080/

Man, this reasonable thinking in Russia and China will be bad news for "our friends and partners" in Amiland.

Pro-US and pro-Israel people is wishing desperately to see everything fail:

- Project 23000
- Project 23560
- Su-57
- Tu-PAK-DA
- MiG-41
- Armata
- S-500
- SS-30 Sarmat
...

miketheterrible wrote:

Vice Prime Minister Borisov complained about the high cost of the tanks "Armata"

Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov believes that now there is no need to equip the Armed Forces of Russia with a large number of such equipment as Armata or Bumerang BTR, since the latest versions of the T-72 tanks have high efficiency

Hmm.  I don't see the word canceled.  Do you?.........

Give it time.

Buran, Energia, Rus-M, Black Eagle MBT, Clipper, AN-97, etc... none of them were cancelled immediately.

It's just that as always it turned out that "the latest versions of the [insert obsolete model here] have high efficiency".

And once everyone forgets the new thing ever existed it would quietly get the hatchet.

miketheterrible wrote:...Matter of fact is, Russia wouldn't have spent the money it has producing the tech if they don't intend to purchase it. .......

I know you are trying to make a joke here but it's not really funny at all. It's tragic in fact. Just look at that little preview list I just posted... money spent, never purchased. Canceled and forgotten.

They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.

Black eagle tank was nothing. It didn't really exist. It was a concept. An-94 was an expensive, complicated rifle but did see extensive use in chechen wars.

Armata is being made. If you have beef with Borisov, take it up with him. It he said what he said. Not being made enass doesn't mean Cancelled and that is just your guys own stupidity

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.

Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

Another failure. List grows ever longer...

miketheterrible wrote:.....Armata is being made. If you have beef with Borisov, take it up with him. It he said what he said. Not being made enass doesn't mean Cancelled and that is just your guys own stupidity

He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

Hence his statement is official policy.

Or do you think you know more about what Russian government does than Russian government itself?

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Nibiru wrote:They should have sticked with the Black Eagle MBT if they're just going to cancel Armata, at least BE is a level higher than the T-90 in the tech tree

they aren't going to cancel the Armata but they will not produce it in large numbers. Maybe when their GDP gets better but for now they cannot afford to replace everything with that tank their main tank units will get them is all etc their elite groups.

and that's correct of thinking to me. Why thousands of armatas if you dont have tanks that are better os in future significantly better? as you mentioned GDP gets better topic returns. Not bad idea is also use existign hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.

PapaDragon wrote:
Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

Another failure. List grows ever longer...

drama queen

.

He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

Hence his statement is official policy.

Or do you think you know more about what Russian government does than Russian government itself?

this was so far one representative. lets wait if thsi is not temporary trend, of testing waters. Perhaps also "invitation" to price negotiations .

Yawn... when did the official orders change?

Until such thing happens, there is nothing but the customary vague and poorly translated comments from some guy without further context. Nothing.

He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

Production in high numbers was the whole point since it was not just about tank but whole family of vehicles. It was advertised as "unified platform".

Now they are stuck with White Elephant the Land Version.

Another failure. List grows ever longer...

You are confusing the Armata platform with the F-35... it was the F-35 that was going to be produced in enormous numbers to replace everything.

The Armata family of vehicles is intended to operate in high intensity dangerous situations like urban combat against very well equipped enemies... the majority of forces they would operate would be using cheaper Kurganets and Boomerang vehicles.

Each of the four military districts will have a certain number of armata divisions, but they will not be the majority of forces by any means.

In the west where the road network is more extensive the cheaper wheeled Boomerangs will be common, while in places where there are few roads and lots of soft ground the Kurganets will predominate.

The fact is that politicians are idiots and believe what they are told.

For a long time... during the 1990s, they were told Russian armour is all crap, and they believed them because the equipment was poorly used.

Current evidence is that with ERA actually fitted and being used by properly trained and motivated crews, and of course good ammo and decent optronics and other upgrades together with proper recon support even a T-72 is a good tank.

As production reduces costs the armata will become an excellent vehicle family... it wont ever be cheap, but will be better than any western alternative for quite some time.

He is high ranking government official who went on record. He was not corrected, not reprimanded and not sacked.

Hence his statement is official policy.

He is the customer... you don't interrupt the customer when they are negotiating a purchase... except in the west where they just sign the cheques and leave the amount blank because next week the price will double.

Not bad idea is also use existign hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.

They would be fine against ISIS, but against the Israelis or the French or the Americans their might be problems with EW being a problem with robotic vehicles...

Not something you want to bet your future on.

drama queen

I thought more flamebaiter, but you are not wrong....  

franco wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

The man here said it all.

I rest my case.

The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.

walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.

so you didnt understand what was written?

GarryB wrote:

Not bad idea is also use existing hulls to make drone army form thousands of T-72. For example for "saturation attack" againt NATO offensive.

They would be fine against ISIS, but against the Israelis or the French or the Americans their might be problems with EW being a problem with robotic vehicles...

Not something you want to bet your future on.

Then Armata and its unmanned version is also doomed (same as Israeli or US unmanned systems). Besides robotized T-72 or bmp programe is already considered by MoD. So I guess its nto that bad.

BTW ISIS is not so primitive after all since best Israeli and US drone specialists working for them in Ildib.

GarryB wrote:

drama queen

I thought more flamebaiter, but you are not wrong....  

I appreciate this I knwo how much do you hate admit I am right (again )

walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.

What?  In both cases, gov officials state that initial orders will be small while they are tested and evaluated against cheaper, simpler options (which will inevitably be procured in any case to boost numbers).

Yeah sure, we expect HATO-fondling soy-bois to leap onto anything that vaguely resembles a hiccup in Russian military defense programs, but this?  Get serious or go home, or better yet, go check if your Volvo has been torched by a refugee gang...

PapaDragon wrote:

franco wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

The man here said it all.

I rest my case.

Franco would be wrong here.

Indeed Borisov got that promotion however he doesn't have the power to cancel projects like that.

Mainly one politically motivated like the Armata is, He would need to go to higher heads to do such a thing.

The structure of the MoD for Russia doesn't work like that.

In the end many men like him make claims like this and nothing happens to them he is simply too important they cannot touch him over a minor remark like that is all, in fact, some like to say things far worse.

The only three people who I'd consider legit words for canning the project are Gerasimov ,Putin and Shoigu

walle83 wrote:The economic pressure is starting to show. First the Su-57 now the Armata. More projects will follow.

It is? Is that why Russia has monthly budget surplus of $5B and GDP growth?

You are aware that budget was stipulated back in April, right? And that there would have been news of budget being slashed, right?

Some of you people are hopeless.

franco wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:He is deputy. Shoigu is defense minister. Borisov doesn't make final decision.

And yes, obviously as Gunship said, opens way to negotiations.

We are looking into things and talking about nothing. Cause it is nothing. Nothing proven or disproven. Let's wait till 2020 when the first 100 batch arrive.

Borisov got a promotion and is no longer a deputy Defense Minister. He is now the deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Military Industrial Complex replacing Rogozin. Rogozin took over the Russian Space Agency.

And? He doesn't make the orders.

http://anna-news.info/poyavilis-fotografii-novoj-versii-tyazhyoloj-bmp-na-platforme-armata/

There were pictures new version of the heavy IFV in the Armata platform





There were pictures new version of heavy infantry fighting vehicles on a promising platform Armata, which will be presented at the International military-technical forum "ARMY-2018".

It is reported that the new version armored vehicles will be armed with the combat module with 57mm automatic cannon and two launchers of supersonic ATGM "Ataka".

This module is very similar to the module that is mounted on a ZSU "Derivation-defense", but with differences in the overall geometry of the hull structure as well as the extra weapons.

Despite the power weapons due to the installation of more powerful guns, with more power of high-explosive and armor-piercing shells, and shells with radio detonators, the firing capabilities of this heavy IFV limited amount of ammunition ammunition (65-80 shells).

Recall that for the first time TBMP T-15 "Barberry" was shown at the Victory Parade in Moscow in 2015. Then she bore the brunt of the combat module with automatic 30mm cannon 2А42М and launchers ATGM “Kornet”.

^^^ This ain't Kurganets (or Boomerang)