[Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

"Uralvagonzavod" is ready to create a new heavy tank with a 152-mm gun on the platform of "Armata"

The company expects the decision of the Defense Ministry

KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, August 22. / TASS /. "Uralvagonzavod" (UVZ, part of Rostech) is ready to create a new heavy tank on the Armata platform with a 152-millimeter cannon, a decision of the Defense Ministry is expected, the press service of the UVZ told Tass.

"The technical reserve for the creation of a tank on the Armata platform with a gun of increased muzzle energy is available, the decision is made by the Russian Defense Ministry," the company said, responding to the relevant question.

Now the T-14 Armata tanks with guns of 125 mm caliber are being tested in the Ground Forces. The combat vehicle was the first in the history of world tank building to receive an uninhabited tower and an isolated armored capsule for the crew. So far, 100 such machines are planned to be put into the army.

T-14 is presented at the International Military-Technical Forum "Army-2018" in an open static exposition. The exhibition is held under the auspices of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in the Mos

Подробнее на ТАСС:
http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5478104

LMFS wrote:
Lots of good pictures of Army 2018 here:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3313509.html

sexy biests

The contract is for the 132 T-14 and T-15 vehicles. To be completed by the end of 2021. First 9 serial vehicles to be received this year.

"На сегодня подписан контракт на 132 машины Т-14 и Т-15. Первые девять машин мы получим уже в этом году, серийные машины. До конца 2021 года контракт будет выполнен", — сказал Криворучко журналистам на форуме "Армия-2018".

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180822/1527030365.html

ult wrote:The contract is for the 132 T-14 and T-15 vehicles. To be completed by the end of 2021. First 9 serial vehicles to be received this year.

"На сегодня подписан контракт на 132 машины Т-14 и Т-15. Первые девять машин мы получим уже в этом году, серийные машины. До конца 2021 года контракт будет выполнен", — сказал Криворучко журналистам на форуме "Армия-2018".

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180822/1527030365.html

So it begins...

walle83 , mate could you comment this please?

ult wrote:The contract is for the 132 T-14 and T-15 vehicles. To be completed by the end of 2021. First 9 serial vehicles to be received this year.

"На сегодня подписан контракт на 132 машины Т-14 и Т-15. Первые девять машин мы получим уже в этом году, серийные машины. До конца 2021 года контракт будет выполнен", — сказал Криворучко журналистам на форуме "Армия-2018".

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180822/1527030365.html

That is enough to equip a brigade with 3 tank battalions and 1 motor rifle battalion. Pretty much as expected.

Details of the contract for the experimental-military batch of machines on the platform "Armata"

Speaking on Aug. 22, 2018 at the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2018", held in Kubinka, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said: "As for the perspective platform of Armata, I want to emphasize that already today we have a solid contract for the supply of 132 machines of T-14 and T-15 products. The first nine cars will be delivered to the troops already in 2018, and in the future, under the current contract, the Defense Ministry will receive all these cars until 2022 ... I want to note that the Su-57 and Armata are promising platforms for the creation of new combat units in various performances. Serial deliveries will continue in the framework of new state contracts both in the current program period and in the future. "

On the bmpd side, we will point out that we are talking about a contract for an experimental-army batch of cars on the advanced heavy platform Armata, concluded by the Ministry of Defense of Russia with the Scientific Production Corporation Uralvagonzavod JSC at the end of 2015, and involves the supply of a total of 132 units of equipment, including T-14 tanks, heavy BMP T-15 and BREM T-16 starting from the end of 2018. According to the statement made in February 2018 by the then Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov, this contract for experimental military operation provides the supply of two battalion sets of T-14 tanks on the Armata platform and one battalion of heavy T-15 BMPs.

The experimental-military operation of these battalion kits, according to known data, will take place in 2020 as part of the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle "Tamanskaya" Division of the Western Military District.

In turn, the general director of NPK Uralvagonzavod Alexander Potapov told reporters on August 22 at the Army 2018 Forum that Uralvagonzavod had produced "approximately 30" experimental vehicles on the Armata platform, some of which participated in the parade on Red Square and in the Ministry of Defense tests.

According to the February statement of Yuri Borisov, the state tests of machines on the platform "Armata" will be launched in 2018 and will continue until the end of 2019. "In 2020, we have a finish on all new models, and after that we will decide on serial large contracts," Yury Borisov said.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3315183.html

some details more

GunshipDemocracy wrote:walle83 , mate could you comment this please?

No chance. He's starting to learn the hard way that denial is not a river in Egypt....

So there is indeed a new T-90 order.

...But its only 30 & most are upgrades to T-90M from T-90A, only 10 new build

hoom wrote:So there is indeed a new T-90 order.

...But its only 30 & most are upgrades to T-90M from T-90A, only 10 new build

No. That was last years order. This year it is another 30 new T-90M. 40 new 20 upgraded in total, to be completed by the end of 2019.

Priorities change with time. Russia needs more equipment out and needs to move funding to other projects first and foremost. Armata and Su-57 will be introduced in coming time but after Syria experience and use of their newer tech like Radar and AD systems, Russia realized that stealth/LO is not necessary.

So priorities are changed. It isn't like Su-35 is cheap, because it isn't. Even though it's $27M per aircraft in USD terms, it's still the same cost or a bit higher in Rubles like it was back before FOREX change. Su-30 being even more expensive for whatever reason.

Another factor is that it is need driven and not profit driven...

The Su-57 case is relevant to an Armata thread because there are a few parallels here... The Su-57 is a brand new design but was never intended to be the new standard Russian fighter to replace all others. It was always going to operate with MiG-35s and Su-35s and MiG-31s... the question they have to deal with is what sort of balance in numbers of types do they actually need... Su-57s to counter NATO and perhaps some on the Chinese front near South Korea and Japan, but most of the fleet can be much cheaper non stealthy aircraft that can perform most roles, while retaining a decent weapon load, but being numbers planes... even more so if the L band radar arrays and IRSTs and main AESA type nose mounted radar can detect enemy stealth aircraft like the F-35 etc then they wont need enormous numbers of stealth aircraft... they are not NATO and don't need to take down tiny air forces in third world countries.

It is the same with the armata... only the heavy forces will have armata platforms and therefore also armata tanks. Lighter highly mobile medium forces will have Kurganets and Boomerang vehicles and gun platforms and wont have armata tanks operating with them.

With modern systems like active camouflage skins, and modern ERA and NERA, plus APS systems that can stop both HEAT and APDS threats, as well as a huge boost in optics and communications and fire power the new medium tracked and medium wheeled vehicle forces will be very effective... without needing to be 40+ tons per vehicle.

In a Kurganets division... compared with a current division, pretty much every vehicle will be much better protected with the exception of the tanks... a T-90 fitted with APS like ARENA-2 probably has better protection than a Kurganets tank version simply because it has more traditional passive armour, but in a currrent division... tank or motor rifle division the vast majority of vehicles actually have fairly poor armour, whereas the Kurganets will no doubt have armour better than the BMP-3 has now, so the average protection and mobility and fire power performance will actually improve even for Kurganets and Boomerang forces.

For armata forces every vehicle including APCS and IFVs and command vehicles and air defence vehicles and artillery vehicles will have tank level protection and mobility...

The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

Agree with the first part but think 150-200 is a more likely number in the long term... I suspect they will sell on the international market too... a downgraded model with western parts will likely be cobbled together for India... probably with Israeli and French components added... would be interesting if Israel or France somewhere down the line decided that the Su-57MKI was worthy of introducing themselves into their own military forces... unlikely though.

Stealth aircraft are a lot more expensive and harder to maintain they are also more limited in usage when it comes to the environment.

Generally, unless you are picking on a country weaker and with tech 40 years behind yours. Stealth becomes a lot less useful stealth fighters, in general, are meant to hide long enough to get that first salvo in maybe second against a hostile aircraft.

Very true but from an American/western colonial point of view.

From a Russian view stealth aircraft are expensive too, but as part of a home defence team that are not easy to detect or track at long range... with low drag and high flight speed at medium altitudes, and with excellent sensors... they would be rather useful additions to the air defence... including for spotting low flying threats without being an obvious and easy target like an A-100 might be.

You cannot really hide them against ground-based radar unless again you're facing someone much less tech wise than you.

You could mask them with noisy unstealthy aircraft, and the odd very fast MiG-31K lofting Mach 10 missiles 2,000km into NATO territory to take out major radar sites and other things of interest.

The problem is with stealth aircraft is to get that shape you need to sacrifice the planes ability to maneuver like a normal aircraft can. So that means if the stealth fighters fail to kill its target in the surprise salvo, its pretty much dead, the other better-optimized aircraft for maneuvering will simply outpace it.

Agree but if we look at the Su-57 it seems to be very manouerable. The comments about manouver performance would best apply to the F-35, which is no dancer... all the new Russian fighters seem to be optimised for manouver combat...

So if you built tons of expensive has hell stealth fighters, well you're asking for a big drain on the wallet with honestly little benefit to it.

Plus you are gambling a lot on a technology that may be effectively countered soon... I agree they wont and don't need to make 500 Su-57s... but I think 150-200 would be a good number (including naval models for new carriers and an upgraded Kuznetsov eventually too).

It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense. It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself. Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently. But that is the purpose of it.

On topic... I don't think the Armata tank will replace the T-72/90 one for one... because there will also be Kurganets tanks and Boomerang tanks and likely even Typhoon gun platforms to perform the role... as well as Sprut of course and a navalised variant of either Kurganets or Boomerang too.

The wont need to replace all the Flanker variants because the Su-30 and Su-35 and indeed the MiG-35 are viable options that are overkill themselves in some situations... together with the MiG-31 and whatever replaces it.

We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

The Armata family is a full range family of vehicles... the time it will take to develop all the family members we might not see a proper armata division until 2030... they might start off with a motor rifle or tank division with T14s and T-15s and the engineer model whatever it is called, and of course Coalition as the T-18 or whatever, but the rest of the vehicles standard current models until the armata models are perfected. So modified MTLB command vehicle in the form of the ACRV-3 or something.

Will be the same with Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon.

Su-27 fleet is not huge anymore. Most of it is being replaced by su-35/30 and many are being upgraded to sm3 standards.

And you could say the same about armour... T-90s and upgraded T-72s will continue for some time... I suspect the lighter vehicles will be developed and produced faster because they are cheaper... the Boomerang will also be cheaper and simpler to operate, so they will probably replace normal divisions with Boomerang divisions much quicker than with other types...

He talks about the long run. All this Su-27SM and Su-27SM3 will be replaced after 2025/2030 by Su-57.

Unless something really drastic happens I really don't think they would need to retire Su-27SM3s for some time... I suspect a mix of 100-200 Su-57s, plus Su-35 and Su-30 and Su-27SM3 and MiG-29SMT and MiG-29M2 and Mig-35s, plus a dwindling number of MiG-31s and a growing number of MiG-41s by 2030.

@all - perhaps lets move discussion on Su-57 to Su-57 thread?

I think this discussion is relevant to both new items... as they are both new technology and no one can really say if they will be brilliant or the last of their kind in the sense that their replacements will all be unmanned and the way that war is conducted in the future might be totally different.

I would rather say that in SU30SM and SU-35 original SU-27 design has reached its peak of development and further substantial improvements are not possible. Anyway, they are one of the best multiroles in the world, if not the best. and much of the aircraft are new or with great lifemargins! SU-57 is coming just on time and can be put in full production when new engine is finished, in 3-4 years.

Another issue for both threads... (Su-57 and Armata)... just because they are new, they are also rather more expensive. Now that might change with time, but further upgrades will likely keep them state of the art but also keep them pricey. The platforms they are replacing are by no means obsolete or useless.

Real conflict in Syria shows that the latest super tank is not needed all the time... even a T-55 with modest upgrades and the properly trained crew with the right tactics can be effective too.

Neither the Armata tank nor the Su-57 will be critical in WWIII.

What matters is how many su-57 they will order for next 10 years. After that they will have an improved version like su-35 with su-27 and no one knows how their economy will be.

Even with a booming economy they might decide that technology has moved on and armatas and Su-57s are not needed in huge numbers... a small force of each for specific situations, and the rest cheaper simpler models that can be produced in larger numbers.

Imagine a neighbour acting up... the reaction when Armata divisions are moved to the nearest border and Su-57s are deployed to a nearby air base...

According to the statement made in February 2018 by the then Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov, this contract for experimental military operation provides the supply of two battalion sets of T-14 tanks on the Armata platform and one battalion of heavy T-15 BMPs.

So they are going to test them as MBTs and BMPs first...

"In 2020, we have a finish on all new models, and after that we will decide on serial large contracts," Yury Borisov said.

but the comment about having all new models ready by 2020... does that mean an all armata division is possible so fast?

If it was to do with money, they would have gone with more MiGs rather than Sukhois

A lot of people keep saying about token purchases of MiG-35s, but I suspect they will actually buy a lot of them... some of the technology on them is quite impressive.

But if you have to chose only one you choose sukhoi.

The numbers look good on paper... very similar aircraft but flanker has bigger radar and rather more weapons and much longer range, but similar speed.

The problem is that while one Flanker might be able to operate from fewer air bases spaced further apart, the actual performance is not better than two Fulcrums... because two fulcrums can cover each other or spread out and cover more airspace.

If it was the case, then they would use MiG-29UB for Syria campaign, and SMT. But they only used it briefly. Stuck with much more expensive Sukhois.

When you can only take 36 planes then it makes sense to take the longer ranged models... but if you have 6 billion to spend and need to defend a given airspace the smaller cheaper plane offers better coverage despite shorter radar range, less weapons and shorter flight range.

Of course with inflight refuelling over your own territory the range advantage is not that great.

They tried it there but the presence of NATO fighters recquires su-35 and s-400. If it was only bombing ground target, SMT are a better price-quality choice than sukhoi specially in syria where they need to fly only few minutes to be on the combat zone.

In fact Su-24s were used because they were cheaper than Su-34s and for most targets there was little difference in effectiveness...

T-15 with all its parts and T-14

Nice... so we have seen MBT = T-14, the definitive BMP = T-15 with the 57mm gun, which means perhaps the one with the 30mm cannon was the interrum T-15 or could be the APC model with an unknown designation. Then we have the model with the tiny HMG armed turret, which could just be another troop transport APC, or it might be a BMO engineer vehicle. Then we had an engineer vehicle model shown a while back too, and then there is the 152mm artillery equipped Coalition but we don't know if it will get a T designation or a 2S36 type designation.

"Uralvagonzavod" is ready to create a new heavy tank with a 152-mm gun on the platform of "Armata"

Pushy... they don't even know how many Armatas they want let along whether to up gun them...

Fact that baboon like him is in the government is proof enough that Russia still has decades to go before becoming respectable nation.

Respectable nation like the US or Saudi Arabia?

A few Boris Johnsons only matter if you actually take politicians seriously... and I would say the only politicians with any real credibility are Putin and Lavrov...

So there is indeed a new T-90 order.

...But its only 30 & most are upgrades to T-90M from T-90A, only 10 new build

They are aiming to create three complete families of armoured vehicles to replace all existing armoured vehicles in a division... it is not going to happen overnight and while it is happening existing forces need upgrades and decent vehicles to practise with.

There will be a lot of commonality between the vehicles... the turrets will be standardised... the armata tank turret on a kurganets and a boomerang will be the standard tank vehicle in each family... and same for the 57mm gun armed IFV turret. There will likely be another 57mm gun armed model for the air defence forces in each family too... let alone the 30mm cannon and missile armed IFV turret for all three families etc etc.

No. That was last years order. This year it is another 30 new T-90M. 40 new 20 upgraded in total, to be completed by the end of 2019.

Point being its a pretty small order fitting with previous small orders rather than a sudden ramping up that I'd expect if Armata is cancelled/dramatically scaled back.

Big_Gazza wrote: denial is not a river in Egypt....    

I've spit whole cup on keyboard. Who's gonna clean itno hun?

https://vpk.name/news/225437_bronetehnika_na_platforme_armata_novyie_gaubicyi_i_kompleksyi_pvo_budut_v_massovo_postavlyatsya_v_voiska__rosteh.html

Armored platform "Armata", the new howitzers and air defense systems will be mass delivered to the troops - rostec

Kubinka (Moscow region). August 22. INTERFAX - AVN - the state Corporation "rostec" said the armored vehicles of the family of "Armata" will go EN masse to the troops in the framework of the State armament programme 2018-2027.

"It is a massive supply of that promising technology, which was created by our enterprises in previous years. This armored family of "Armata" (T-14, infantry fighting vehicles T-15), artillery "Coalition-SV", the latest modification of anti-aircraft missile and gun complexes "Carapace-s", including those adapted to Arctic conditions," - said in an interview to "Interfax" the Director of industrial cluster "Arms" of the state Corporation "rostec" Sergey Abramov, asked about the State armament programme until 2027.

He also said that the troops will go the latest electronic warfare systems such as "Krasuha-4".

Meanwhile, on July 30, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov said that Russia is not going to move EN masse to a new generation of armored vehicles.

"We have special needs in this, these models are quite expensive in relation to the existing. These models is the prospect of armored equipment," - said the Deputy Prime Minister to journalists of the "Armata" and "Boomerang".

"If we have today, the current technique, for example, tank T-72 upgraded, BMP-4 or BTR-82 in its capabilities dramatically inferior to potential enemy, of course we are now forced to buy new models", - said Yuri Borisov.

The Deputy Prime Minister said that standing on the armament of armored vehicles modernizarea and it shows.

"So we get, with a budget 10 times less than the NATO countries, at the expense of such effective solutions, when you look at the modernization potential of the old samples to solve tasks", - he said.

"Well, why flood the "Armat" all the Armed forces, we have the T-72 are in great demand in the market, it take it is compared to the Abrams (USA), Leclerc (France) and Leopards (Germany) at the price of efficiency and quality greatly surpasses them. The same situation with the "Boomerangs" - said Yuri Borisov.

August 21, Vice Prime Minister announced that the decision on the procurement of this equipment will take the defense Ministry.

"Almost all the platform, starting, in my opinion, in 2014, the contracted, the army has already received for experimental combat operation the required number of samples, and today are in full swing these tests. And the serial procurement will take the Ministry of defence as necessary", - said Yuri Borisov

He also recalled that the first tanks already go to the troops for testing.

"More than 100 samples have already been contracted and go into force", - said Yuri Borisov.

As I said before, Borisov gives his opinion, but the defense ministry is the one that makes the decision on procurements.

BTW, head of Rostec is very close to Putin. And ultimately, Putin and high echelons of the defense ministry has control over procurement, not Borisov.

Apparently a number of T-16's were also purchased.

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180823/1527078162.html

miketheterrible wrote:

As I said before, Borisov gives his opinion, but the defense ministry is the one that makes the decision on procurements.

Borisov is on top of MoD -hes deputy PM and himself is a Putin's man .

But this is just price negotiation first move to me. Nothing else.

He doesn't decide procurement. He helps decide a budget. The rest is done by MoD and president.

miketheterrible wrote:He doesn't decide procurement. He helps decide a budget. The rest is done by MoD and president.

His job is to deliver what is ordered by the MoD... however he would have input on budgets especially in regards to costs and production.

franco wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:He doesn't decide procurement. He helps decide a budget. The rest is done by MoD and president.

His job is to deliver what is ordered by the MoD... however he would have input on budgets especially in regards to costs and production.

So you agree with me then. Cause as I said, MoD decides what to buy and as stated in article I posted.

Thanks

GunshipDemocracy wrote:walle83 , mate could you comment this please?

What do u want for comment? Nothing new really, 100 T-14 like earlier news stated, and 32 T-15? by 2021. Still lacks 2,400 T-14 to replace the T-71 and T-80 as planned