Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2

It think they are wasting time with all this crap...

The 5.45mm round is fine... it does the job with low recoil and adequate lethality and penetration performance, for assault rifles and sub machine guns it is plenty of round for the job.

For medium to longer range the 7.62x54 is ready for replacement... new technology should allow a round that offers better performance in all parameters including less mass, less powder, better velocity, better velocity retention, greater effective range, lower recoil, shorter bullet flight time to target, flatter shooting, simpler ammo handling.

I would also drop the 9x19mm and 9x18mm ammo and replace it with 9x21mm ammo... it will cost more, but will be rather more effective in SMGs like Kashtan and Vityaz. In pistols it will be rather more powerful which will create issues of training and control, but if you have a pistol then you are likely a cop, or not expected to take on the enemy much anyway...

I would increase the issue of SMGs like SR-2 and Vityaz in 9x21mm as they are vastly more useful than any pistol anyway.

BTW if it is based on the .243 then it is a necked down Winchester .308, which is basically the civilian hunting version of 7.62mm NATO.

GarryB wrote:It think they are wasting time with all this crap...

The 5.45mm round is fine... it does the job with low recoil and adequate lethality and penetration performance, for assault rifles and sub machine guns it is plenty of round for the job.

For medium to longer range the 7.62x54 is ready for replacement... new technology should allow a round that offers better performance in all parameters including  less mass, less powder, better velocity, better velocity retention, greater effective range, lower recoil, shorter bullet flight time to target, flatter shooting, simpler ammo handling.

I would also drop the 9x19mm and 9x18mm ammo and replace it with 9x21mm ammo... it will cost more, but will be rather more effective in SMGs like Kashtan and Vityaz. In pistols it will be rather more powerful which will create issues of training and control, but if you have a pistol then you are likely a cop, or not expected to take on the enemy much anyway...

I would increase the issue of SMGs like SR-2 and Vityaz in 9x21mm as they are vastly more useful than any pistol anyway.

BTW if it is based on the .243 then it is a necked down Winchester .308, which is basically the civilian hunting version of 7.62mm NATO.

No, because a necked down .308 would actually put the bullet on squarer shoulders, not narrower. It's typically something that Russians have done for a while now.

Introduction on the intricacies of cartridge design.

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/10/why-not-308-the-battle-between-6-5-creedmoor-6-5x47l-260-rem-243-win-6br-6x47l-or-6-creedmoor/

Bottom line, 6BR/6.5 Lapua critically matches or overmatches the 308 in about everything while being the exact contrary of the .308 design. However, the bullet weight at range can become a factor. The 100 to 140 grain 6/6,5 rounds simply are the better all round ammunition.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
No, because a necked down .308 would actually put the bullet on squarer shoulders, not narrower. It's typically something that Russians have done for a while now.

Introduction on the intricacies of cartridge design.

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/10/why-not-308-the-battle-between-6-5-creedmoor-6-5x47l-260-rem-243-win-6br-6x47l-or-6-creedmoor/

Bottom line, 6BR/6.5 Lapua critically matches or overmatches the 308 in about everything while being the exact contrary of the .308 design. However, the bullet weight at range can become a factor. The 100 to 140 grain 6/6,5 rounds simply are the better all round ammunition.

6.5mm Creedmoor ? wasn't it chosen by USSOCOM as sniper ammo? BTW damn close size to Russian 6,7x51mm


BTW

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23/ussocom-adopts-6-5-cm/

Yes it was as a specialty round. The difference here is that the level of introduction, if the caliber goes past the test bench would be light years ahead vs the 6,5CR. Also casing for the 6,7BS is a wildcat from Sellier & Bellot. But looking at it the main image I have is 6,5Lapua. Which is something the Russians have about 20 years experience with.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Yes it was as a specialty round. The difference here is that the level of introduction, if the caliber goes past the test bench would be light years ahead vs the 6,5CR. Also casing for the 6,7BS is a wildcat from Sellier & Bellot. But looking at it the main image I have is 6,5Lapua. Which is something the Russians have about 20 years experience with.

You mean if 6,7x51 passed ? or Igo it wrong?  

1) As for new caliber - Russia is not really pursuing  new one?  

2) it would be only for sniper rifles or unified round for all?



Probably you have this already but just in case a post forum.guns.ru about ammo with 3d graphics. Ths Russian/Sovier 6x49 wa shuge in comparison with others.



https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/122/1423116-2.html

No, because a necked down .308 would actually put the bullet on squarer shoulders, not narrower.

Sorry, I don't follow... a 243 calibre bullet is smaller than a 308, so to adapt a 308 case you make the neck narrower to hold the smaller projectile... you can change the shape of the shoulders independently... just look at the 22 Hornet and the 22 Hornet K... the latter can be made simply by firing 22 hornet rounds in a chamber adapted to the 22 hornet K version...

Bottom line, 6BR/6.5 Lapua critically matches or overmatches the 308 in about everything while being the exact contrary of the .308 design. However, the bullet weight at range can become a factor. The 100 to 140 grain 6/6,5 rounds simply are the better all round ammunition.

Yeah... interesting reading, but I am talking about the Russians developing their own new round to replace the 7.62 x 54mm rimmed round, not a target shooting round.

Creedmor is a 6.5 x about 49mm, so why even look at when they developed 6x51 and then 6x49m rounds already?

Sure, test the western round and work out all its secrets, but there is about as much reason to adopt it as there is to adopt the 7.62 x 51mm...

They were developing high energy powder propellent, they are developing new weapons... I would think a new round optimised to be used from the barrel lengths they will use in the LMGs and sniper rifles and machineguns is what they need...

Ak-12

Kalashnikov gunmaker unveils assault rifle chambered for NATO cartridge



The new assault rifle has a magazine for 20 rounds

MOSCOW, August 20. /TASS/. The Kalashnikov Group has demonstrated a new AK-308 assault rifle chambered for NATO rounds, the Kalashnikov Media reported on Monday.

The new prototype, "the Kalashnikov 7.62mm AK-308 automatic rifle will be demonstrated at the Army-2018 forum," the gunmaker said.

Read also
Kalashnikov to deliver SV-98 sniper rifles to Russia's National Guard

"The weapon was made using the AK-103 assault rifle chambered for the 7.62x51mm round with the elements and components of the AK-12 gun. Currently, preparations are underway for the firearm’s trials," the Kalashnikov Group said.

The new assault rifle has a magazine for 20 rounds. It weighs 4.3 kg with the empty magazine and has an overall length of 880-940mm. The AK-308 uses diopter and folding sights and a butt regulated by its length. A bayonet can be mounted on the assault rifle.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/1017934

[h3]The new AK-308 will be shown for the first time at the "Army-2018"[/h3]

https://rg.ru/2018/08/20/reg-szfo/novyj-avtomat-ak-308-vpervye-pokazhut-na-armii-2018.html



Oh well Georige was first by 5 min



On vid below in short:

chambered to NATO 7,62x51 mm, based on AK-103 with elements ("nodes") of AK-12. Just curiosity: why NATO round - is Russia moving towards 7,62x51? or for export?

That is the question I was asking myself... the US has banned sales of Russian guns basically, so who is this gun for?

I am guessing the only real potential would be export to Eastern European countries that are not happy with 5.56mm ammo, but are trapped within NATO and therefore limited to NATO calibres.

Of course the obvious problem is even in a NATO calibre they are not going to buy Russian guns...

There is no available US export market.

Sounds like a waste of time to me.

I suspect Export and civilian market will be largely blocked via sanctions, if not already.

Would love to see them release a modular multi barrel system that uses current calibres like 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm and 9x39mm and 7.62x54mm, as well as 12 gauge and .22LR, that uses standard Russian magazines... ie 30,45,60,95 round capacity 5.45mm, 30,40,75 round 7.62x39 and perhaps 10,20,30 round 9x39mm and 10,20 round 7.62x54mm calibre box magazines (ie standard military magazines for AK-74 and AK and AS and SVD magazines...)

For hunting it does not need to be semi auto... in fact for export sport sales it would be better if it was a pump action...

For export you could add all the western calibres too of course I suppose...

GarryB wrote:That is the question I was asking myself... the US has banned sales of Russian guns basically, so who is this gun for?

I am guessing the only real potential would be export to Eastern European countries that are not happy with 5.56mm ammo, but are trapped within NATO and therefore limited to NATO calibres.

Of course the obvious problem is even in a NATO calibre they are not going to buy Russian guns...

There is no available US export market.

Sounds like a waste of time to me.

I suspect Export and civilian market will be largely blocked via sanctions, if not already.

Would love to see them release a modular multi barrel system that uses current calibres like 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm and 9x39mm and 7.62x54mm, as well as 12 gauge and .22LR, that uses standard Russian magazines... ie 30,45,60,95 round capacity 5.45mm, 30,40,75 round 7.62x39 and perhaps 10,20,30 round 9x39mm and 10,20 round 7.62x54mm calibre box magazines (ie standard military magazines for AK-74 and AK and AS and SVD magazines...)

For hunting it does not need to be semi auto... in fact for export sport sales it would be better if it was a pump action...

For export you could add all the western calibres too of course I suppose...

It's a cool alternative to the FN FAL or HK G3. FN FAL user contractors & certain militaries would appreciate this rifle due to its normal automatic select fire instead of FN FAL sprying bullet. It's more controllable & convenient too compared to FN FAL or HK G3. It's lightweight & has picatinny rail. Overall it's a modern replacement to FN FAL or HK G3.

It's not a waste of time or money. Latin American, North African, Middle Eastern & Southeast Asian countries could show interest in this rifle to replace their aged FN FAL or HK G3 rifles.

Plus russian special forces could use them.

Sprut-B wrote:
It's a cool alternative to the FN FAL or HK G3. FN FAL user contractors & certain militaries would appreciate this rifle due to its normal automatic select fire instead of FN FAL sprying bullet. It's more controllable & convenient too compared to FN FAL or HK G3. It's lightweight & has picatinny rail. Overall it's a modern replacement to FN FAL or HK G3.

Oh isnt is also  Indian Army who is looking for 7,62x51 assault rifle since last year?  Iran, Vietnam can be then potential client... Great if India negotiated manufacturing tech this time.

Hole wrote:Plus russian special forces could use them.

especially when Donetsk/Luzhansk and Odessa will jin homeland?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Oh isnt is also  Indian Army who is looking for 7,62x51 assault rifle since last year?  Iran, Vietnam can be then potential client... Great if India negotiated manufacturing tech this time.

[/quote]

Yes they are looking for a 7,62x51 assault rifle for the special forces. FN SCAR H is costly so this rifle could fulfil the needs of the Indian army. It looks much more controllable compared to SCAR H & it's based on AK platform so it would be very reliable too & soldiers wouldn't need extra training to operate this weapon.

Sprut-B wrote:
Yes they are looking for a 7,62x51 assault rifle for the special forces. FN SCAR H is costly so this rifle could fulfil the needs of the Indian army. It looks much more controllable compared to SCAR H & it's based on AK platform so it would be very reliable too & soldiers wouldn't need extra training to operate this weapon.

It's as Malagasy all about business negotiations. and I'm sure made-in-India transfer will by eventual deal take place.

People talk about the uppers and lowers of the M16 design making it so flexible, but the mag well is part of the lower on the M16... which is why you get stupid limited rounds like the 300 blackout ... because all the rounds you put through the rifle have to fit into a mag well designed for the 5.56 x 45mm round.

The FN FAL or SLR also has an upper and lower, but the lower is the buttstock and the recoil spring and the pistol grip, while the upper is the receiver and the magazine and the rifle barrel and front stock... so you could pretty much make the upper in any calibre you like without any size restrictions in length.

Hell, you could even make it a pump action if you wanted...

I own an SLR and I think it is a fantastic rifle....

I could not find a dedicated thread for heavy machine guns or grenade launcher, so i will post this here.

Can anybody ID this weapon that was seen in Arbalet remote weapons station at Army 2018 ? It looks like an AGS with a longer barrel and muzzle brake.
But it could also be a different machine gun or mock up.

Could it be Balkan 40mm optimized for mounting in RCWS/on vehicles?
It could also be older AGS-30 with modifications. It doesnt look like Balkan in the front, more like AGS-30 tbh. But could also be fake.

Thanks in advance !

 

That is rather unusual... when I first looked at it I thought it was the 2A42 cannon from the BMP-2 as the muzzle brake looks similar, but the barrel is rather too short and the mechanism doesn't look right where it enters the turret.

My guess based on barrel diameter and barrel length is that it is a 12.7mm HMG with a new muzzle brake, though it could be 14.5mm or perhaps even a 23mm calibre KPVB with an improved muzzle brake.

(Note the KPVB uses the KPV HMG design but replaces the 14.5x114mm HMG cartridge with a very similar 23x115mm round often used in Soviet aircraft including the latest model Hind with a twin barrel 23mm gun in a chin turret... the round designed to deliver a heavy (for its calibre) HE projectile at relatively low velocity (about 700m/s) but with compact ammo of low recoil at very high rate of fire... so instead of using very high velocity to hit small fast moving targets it uses high rate of fire bursts like a shotgun blast to pepper the area with projectiles... but with a light cheap low recoiling round that can be carried in large numbers because of its small cartridge case size... it is really the size of HMG ammo...)

If it is not KPVB, I would suspect it was Kord with a new muzzle brake.

Those smoke grenade launcher tubes are about 82mm in diameter, and the gun barrel near the muzzle is about 1/3rd the width... so that is is less than 30mm... and that is the outside of the barrel, so the calibre is likely 12.7mm, because whatever the barrel thickness is, you have to double it, to work out the width of the hole down the middle... at about 28mm that would be less than 4mm thick if it was a 23mm gun, so I suspect it is a 12.7mm calibre gun which means the barrel diameter is about 7.6mm thick... which sounds about right.

I really don't think it is a 30mm or 40mm grenade launcher... mainly because they are not high velocity rounds so the benefit of having a muzzle break is not that good.

A grenade launcher would be a fairly low recoil system in a vehicle turret.

Also the box on the side looks like the ammo boxes they have for 12.7mm MGs... in terms of depth and width.

GarryB wrote:That is rather unusual... when I first looked at it I thought it was the 2A42 cannon from the BMP-2 as the muzzle brake looks similar, but the barrel is rather too short and the mechanism doesn't look right where it enters the turret.

My guess based on barrel diameter and barrel length is that it is a 12.7mm HMG with a new muzzle brake, though it could be 14.5mm or perhaps even a 23mm calibre KPVB with an improved muzzle brake.

(Note the KPVB uses the KPV HMG design but replaces the 14.5x114mm HMG cartridge with a very similar 23x115mm round often used in Soviet aircraft including the latest model Hind with a twin barrel 23mm gun in a chin turret... the round designed to deliver a heavy (for its calibre) HE projectile at relatively low velocity (about 700m/s) but with compact ammo of low recoil at very high rate of fire... so instead of using very high velocity to hit small fast moving targets it uses high rate of fire bursts like a shotgun blast to pepper the area with projectiles... but with a light cheap low recoiling round that can be carried in large numbers because of its small cartridge case size... it is really the size of HMG ammo...)

If it is not KPVB, I would suspect it was Kord with a new muzzle brake.

Those smoke grenade launcher tubes are about 82mm in diameter, and the gun barrel near the muzzle is about 1/3rd the width... so that is is less than 30mm... and that is the outside of the barrel, so the calibre is likely 12.7mm, because whatever the barrel thickness is, you have to double it, to work out the width of the hole down the middle... at about 28mm that would be less than 4mm thick if it was a 23mm gun, so I suspect it is a 12.7mm calibre gun which means the barrel diameter is about 7.6mm thick... which sounds about right.

I really don't think it is a 30mm or 40mm grenade launcher... mainly because they are not high velocity rounds so the benefit of having a muzzle break is not that good.

A grenade launcher would be a fairly low recoil system in a vehicle turret.

Also the box on the side looks like the ammo boxes they have for 12.7mm MGs... in terms of depth and width.

Forgot to thank you for the input on this GarryB, so thanks anyway.

Little update on that photo : According to VitalyK, the weapon system is called "AP-23", so i assume it is supposedly a 23mm weapon system.
It has to be a 23x115mm system. Given the AP-23 designation, i assume the weapon is a modernized AM-23 cannon.

Overall dimensions seem to match based on what we can see in the photograph. As you pointed out, compared to the Kord, the original AM-23 has a bigger, lower velocity round with more HE power, and a higher rate of fire.

Alternatively, it could be a single barrel version of the GSh-23 which is chambered in the same caliber, but this to me at least seems less likely.
It could also be a modernized version of the 23x152mm 2A14 cannon, but i doubt this as well because it is not bulky enough and does not match the profile.
Or it is just a 12.7mm with a weird and confusing name.

A few things of note : Based on this picture at least, the gun seems to be integrated in an unmodified variant of ARBALET RCWS, utilizing the same ammo box and feeding ramp as the version using the 12.7mm 6P49/ 6P50. The 23x115 is obviously a larger round. Ammunition capacity would decrease by 50% ( around 200-220 rounds of ready to fire ammo ). For the weapon system to be more effective and utilize the inherent rate of fire, it would make more sense to increase the ammunition capacity. I am also not 100% sure if the feeding ramp would be suitable for the bigger rounds, though it is hard to tell based on a few pictures. It might not be a problem at all.

I tried to find some info on the Tula website and some other sites, but i could not find anything further about the weapon system after a quick search.
The weirdest thing if it is indeed a modernized AM-23, is that AFAIK the army has never used this caliber, only the VVS. I am also unaware of any export potential to nations who use the weapon in the ground to ground attack role. I cant imagine the army introducing suddenly a new caliber, so i doubt we will see much of this in the future.

Interesting concept however ! It could be very useful on a BMPT type vehicle. IMHO it can be usefull both as a co-axial weapon, or as a roof mounted weapon capable of engaging both drones and soft ground targets.
Would be interesting to see what types of ammo are available.

Rosgvardia plans to buy AK "two hundredth series," said a source

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180913/1528452678.html
http://modernfirearms.net/en/assault-rifles/ak-200-2/

so actually AK-74 with piccantiny + magpulized?

Actually the Russian Army does use the 23x115mm round...

http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/military/mi-35m.html

That 23mm gun in the chin turret is a 23x115mm calibre weapon... high rate of fire, relatively low recoil, heavy projectile with a good HE payload for its calibre.

A very good gun for use against enemy troops and soft targets.

It is certainly bigger than a 12.7mm round but not excessively so... the 23x152mm standard ZU-23 round is rather bigger and rather higher velocity but with the same projectile...

The length of the propellant case is about the same as the 14.5x114mm round... which is the standard MG on the BTR family of vehicles... the KPVB is the same gun in 23mm calibre.

Glad to see it is auto and full auto capable... wasn't the original version hand cocked manual?

Today, the Russian army and the Russian navy accepted the ADS amphibious rifle for the service!

Orders placed, serial production had begun...

The developers (Tula armorers) stated that the ADS machine gun had greatly interested the foreign customers and the first requests for its delivery abroad had already been submitted, however, the priority is the interests of the Russian army, therefore, first of all, the deliveries will begin to the Russian armed forces.



https://topwar.ru/148782-dvuhsrednyj-avtomat-ads-prinjat-na-vooruzhenie-minoborony-rf.html

which units in Russian Army will use it?

I would say special forces mainly.... and being such a compact rifle they might issue it to VDV and armoured vehicle crews... it has a full length barrel and is supposed to be rather accurate.

There is a small oval hole roughly above where the trigger is where the empty cases are ejected so you can fire it left or right handed without adjustment and without getting hot shells cases in your ear.

With a small red dot sight and a x4 magnifier that can be flipped on or off it would be excellent for close and medium range fire...

I wonder if the new 95 round drums work with it...