Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2

Good Debate by Indian Army personal on why they opted for AK-203 , GarryB do watch

A few obvious errors... no firearm is 100% reliable and never jams... any rifle can jam in some circumstance... often because of damage to magazines or poor ammo.

Also it has a cyclic rate of fire of 600 rounds per minute, which means it fires about 10 rounds a second but with a 30 round drum it will fire for three seconds and then stop and while you replace the empty mag with a full mag it will not fire any rounds. Even with 95 round capacity drums you wont be able to fire 600 rounds in a minute as every 10 seconds you will be reloading and you will need to reload at least 5 times.

But they are dead right about reliability... it is not just a cheap parlour trick... having soldiers that are confident with their primary weapon is critical...

From what I can tell these weapons seem to be replacing AKs and INSAS, while the SiG Sauer 5.56mm rifles will also replace some of the INSAS rifles in the roles where they are fighting in open country where the smaller calibre is much easier to use at extended ranges though they would critically need optics to be of any use most of the time.

The AKs will be cheaper.

They are selecting the 7.62x39mm specifically for its knock down power and it is not from advertising or some comment on wiki... they are basing their choice on experience in combat with both INSAS and the AK and have decided the AK has better performance.

The AK-203 will take that all a step forward as it is made better with better materials and will improve accuracy and ability to add optics and other equipment like torches and lasers and front grips or bipods.

Note if they wanted the 5.56mm calibre they have the new AKs in 5.56mm too... and indeed if they wanted 7.62 x 51mm then they have the new AKs in that calibre too, but they are clearly choosing 7.62x39mm.

They have experience in all three calibres.

did he men drop or accuracy?  Drop is fairly easy to calculate:

He is basically talking about bullet drop or trajectory where you have to accurately estimate range to the target and either change your sight setting or aim off to compensate.

For instance if I had the iron sight on my AK set at 300m and a target appeared at 450m then if I aimed for the normal centre of chest position my bullets will be hitting in the groin or upper thigh area.
Of course a target 450m away is a tiny target so the tiniest flinch could shift the point of aim way off target anyway, but I would think a target 450m away would be so small I would probably recognise it is further than 300m away and aim for the top of the targets head... which would be easier to aim for.

They could modify the ammo if they want and go for improved propellent and slightly lighter bullets... at 100grain projectiles leaving the muzzle at 950m/s the trajectory will be flatter and the bullet will get to the target quicker, but shooting a targets at 400m is something you might play around at on a shooting range, but in real combat you will have real trouble getting two or three hits out of 10-15 shots most of the time unless you know the precise range to the target, have decent optical sights and are aware of any crosswinds...

looks like Russians improved 5,45mm ammo as cost effective solutio but this column below (1/3/2019) seem to outdtedinfo. Look t tble below:

Maybe the criticism was planned to sell new ammo to an Army that was not immediately interested in buying...

Looks like AK-103 7.62x39 is quite accurate up to 300 m , Read the review

That is a common misconception... most military assault rifles in most calibres are accurate enough to about 300m.

Shooting at greater distances means you ammo has to be good, the shooter has to be good, they have to be using decent optics, they need to allow for environmental conditions like wind and not just where the shooter is or the target is, but all the way between.

People who bollock on about 5.56mm rifles being accurate to 800m are a case in point... sure... on a still day, with no one shooting back at you, with carefully selected ammo, and a tuned gun, and modern powerful optical sights at a known distance from a nice comfortable shooting mount... you are not hungry or tired or scared, you might get a few rounds on paper... what is that even supposed to mean to the guy in the field who gets handed mass produced ammo from the lowest bidder to fire with his 2-3 MOA rifle...

If you look at the video for the AK-103 the wind had more effect at 300m and further but part of the problems these idiots are having is that their targets are at yard distances and the iron sights on the rifle they are using is in metres... note when he allowed for the crosswind and set his iron sights for 300m, he hit the 350 yard target...

Of course it becomes easier with optics but then it is easier to adjust an iron sight than most optical sights for range.

The real point is that you need to know your rifle and its ammo, and you need to be able to estimate the actual range to the target... if you do both of those then the 7.62x39mm is just as accurate as any other round...

Keeping in mind these were torso targets so a miss could still have resulted in a hit to the arm, leg, gut, groin, or head... Hollywood loves to show the hero getting shot in the leg or knee or whatever and then spend the next minutes of the movie dragging themselves around and killing the enemy like lemmings, but for most humans that is not going to happen.

Thanks Garry , Informative reply as always.

Can a AK-203 with 7.62x39 fired at max 300 m range can penetrate BP jacket ? Or is the bullet effective to disable a person at that long range

Plenty of first hand Soviet reports in Afghanistan of Muji Type-56 shot from long distances ( over 500 metres) failing to pen helmets and even getting tangled up in vatufka. My father has almost comical stories of strikebol type of injuries his mates sustained when fighting holding the heights.
300 mwouldn't be a problem, but 5,45 would have flatter trajectory and more power (still both bullets have above 400 joules) at such distances.

Regular wrote:Plenty of first hand Soviet reports in Afghanistan of Muji Type-56 shot from long distances ( over 500 metres) failing to pen helmets and even getting tangled up in vatufka. My father has almost comical stories of strikebol type of injuries his mates sustained when fighting holding the heights.
300 mwouldn't be a problem, but 5,45 would have flatter trajectory and more power (still both bullets have above 400 joules) at such distances.

The 5.45x45 having more power than 7.62x39 at 500 meters?!?! The 5.45x45 would have a flater trajectory with its lighter round, but that doesn't factor wind/air-resistance which affect a lighter round more than a heavier round (the Afghan Hindu-Kush mountain range is very windy), and because it's a lighter round in comparison to the 7.62x39 it would have far less stopping power at the range.

A target wearing body armour and other kit is always going to be a more difficult target for a shoulder fired assault rifle.

Even the heaviest body armour normally means a chest plate that stops small arms rounds and kevlar to stop fragments everywhere else, plus helmet.

This 7.62x39mm calibre weapon is intended for anti terrorist ops in urban areas so the idea of hitting someone at more than 300m is amusing to say the least.

Looking through an iron sight at a target 300m away makes them the tiniest of little blurs... if they are wearing a bright orange top and standing still you can probably get lots of hits but you wont be getting hits to the heart even if there is no wind... you would need a good support for the rifle and be in a nice prone position, with good ammo.

If you were climbing in the mountains and spotted enemy forces you might get shots at extended ranges but the swirling air at such altitudes and distances means you would be better using a bipod... setting the iron sight precisely after using a laser range finder to get the precise range and then using someone elses body weight to hold the rifle in place and fire full auto the entire 30 shot magazine and you might get some hits at more than 500m.... certainly the RPK with its longer barrel and bipod was supposed to be effective out to 600m or so... but at the end of the day if you see targets at these sorts of distances... tell the guy in the unit with the SVD or PKM and get them to take them on.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Regular wrote:Plenty of first hand Soviet reports in Afghanistan of Muji Type-56 shot from long distances ( over 500 metres) failing to pen helmets and even getting tangled up in vatufka. My father has almost comical stories of strikebol type of injuries his mates sustained when fighting holding the heights.
300 mwouldn't be a problem, but 5,45 would have flatter trajectory and more power (still both bullets have above 400 joules) at such distances.

The 5.45x45 having more power than 7.62x39 at 500 meters?!?! The 5.45x45 would have a flater trajectory with its lighter round, but that doesn't factor wind/air-resistance which affect a lighter round more than a heavier round (the Afghan Hindu-Kush mountain range is very windy), and because it's a lighter round in comparison to the 7.62x39 it would have far less stopping power at the range.

Well, I am not genius, but I am pretty sure 5.45x39 will carry more power at same distance as speed = energy. Also, stopping power is not about penetration, 7.62 can put enemy quicker due to mass of the bullet affecting tissues, but don't forget that 5.45 tends to tumble and when it hits bone it travel randomly making deadly injuries when bullet slips in and causes trauma and internal bleeding that can't be stopped. 5,45 is by far superior bullet.
According to spetsnaz member 7.62 kills quicker but it is twice more affected by the wind than 5.45, but 5.45 can penetrate better with AP bullets (he said they are very rare anyways).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMJr9Bv5IAs

Regular wrote:
{}

check this out:

http://www.dogswar.ru/boepripasy/41-patrony/7711-prom

Characteristics for 7N39 cartridge (5,45x39mm). TO be used for Ratnik gear. BTW 2P is armor steel.

Дополнительные сведения
Площадь поперечного сечения канала ствола (автомат «АК-74М») см2 - 0,24;
Начальная скорость пули (автомат «АК-74М»), м/с - 830-850;
Дульная энергия пули (автомат «АК-74М»), Дж - 1330,1-1342,0;
Пробивное действие (автомат «АК-74М») обеспечивает 100% пробитие:
.............- стальной плиты толщиной 24 мм из стали марки Ст.3 на дальности 100 метров,
.............- секции бронежилета 6Б23-1 на дальности 100 метров,
..............- стальной плиты толщиной 5 мм из стали марки 2П на дальности 550 метров.

The real problem is that actual energy measurements don't make sense.

Energy is mass times velocity squared, which puts too much emphasis on speed... a 2kg baseball bat hits you at 100km/h might hurt and do damage but lack of penetration means maybe a broken bone or surface bruising. a pointed 11 gram projectile travelling at 100m/s... which is only 360km/h could penetrate your chest and pierce your heart... it might not have enough energy to go right through, but it is enough to kill you... but not break bones or cause heavy bruising.

We are talking about a combination of penetration as well as mass and speed... a 5.45mm bullet can pass completely though a human body a cause little trauma, or it might hit your belt buckle and come through your belly sideways and rip a huge hole in your gut and really make a mess.

There is no magic bullet that will always be totally lethal and even the most boring round that punches a clean hole right through can be effective with a chest hit or a hit to the head.

Exceptional cases are interesting but not practically useful... there was a case where an Afghan was hit in his hip... he was facing the person who shot him, and the bullet turned sideways and travelled up through his stomach and chest cavity and exited behind his shoulder... the entry wound and exit wound were hard to find, but the devastation from gut through the chest meant he died almost immediately. The same bullet a cm to the left or right might have simply punched a clean tiny hole right through.

Of course the 5.45mm didn't replace the 7.62x39mm for no reason, and its projectile is long and slim and a very good shape for retaining velocity... much better than the 5.56, but they have updated the 5.56mm with heavier projectiles and longer projectiles but are limited by the design of the 5.56mm round.

check this out:

Imagine that in a 95 round drum loaded in an RPK-16 with the long barrel fitted....

In terms of pure penetration both the 5.45x39mm and the 7.62x39mm could use flechette rounds of very high muzzle velocity and basically a shape like a nail, with a flat flight trajectory and the ability to penetrate quite reasonable levels of armour to significant distances... it just would not be very accurate and after penetrating the armour not particularly lethal behind armour...

With modern laser rangefinders being very very cheap, the 7.62x39mm is becoming more interesting at longer ranges but neither round was ever intended to be a long range sniper rifle round... they are for close combat only... for which they are both more than adequate...

It is the 7.62 x 54mm rounds they really need to look at replacing with a more modern more effective round.

The well-known weapons factory Molot-Oruzhie LLC (formerly OJSC Vyatsko-Polyansky Machine-Building Plant Molot, Vyatskiye Polyany, Kirov Region) reported that it had developed a new 7.62-mm machine gun in its initiative.



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3574535.html

GarryB wrote:

check this out:

Imagine that in a 95 round drum loaded in an RPK-16 with the long barrel fitted....

In terms of pure penetration both the 5.45x39mm and the 7.62x39mm could use flechette rounds of very high muzzle velocity and basically a shape like a nail, with a flat flight trajectory and the ability to penetrate quite reasonable levels of armour to significant distances... it just would not be very accurate and after penetrating the armour not particularly lethal behind armour...

With modern laser rangefinders being very very cheap, the 7.62x39mm is becoming more interesting at longer ranges but neither round was ever intended to be a long range sniper rifle round... they are for close combat only... for which they are both more than adequate...

It is the 7.62 x 54mm rounds they really need to look at replacing with a more modern more effective round.

I dont see 7,62x39 long range career. too small accuracy not only slow with high trajectory curvature. You can mount 1000hp engine to tractor but you wont make race car form it. With 7,62x54mm agreed but they can build new cartridge to same dimensions right?

George1 wrote:The well-known weapons factory Molot-Oruzhie LLC (formerly OJSC Vyatsko-Polyansky Machine-Building Plant Molot, Vyatskiye Polyany, Kirov Region) reported that it had developed a new 7.62-mm machine gun in its initiative.



https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3574535.html

looks cool the question is will it be produced along Pecheneg?

I dont see 7,62x39 long range career. too small accuracy not only slow with high trajectory curvature.

There were lots of good reasons for replacing the 7.62x39mm ammo in AKs, the flat trajectory meaning errors in guessing range have less effect on ability to hit targets at different ranges was one good reason, lower recoil, lighter ammo, are other reasons...

But time has moved on and if new rifles are going to have night vision equipment... laser range finders are getting cheaper and lighter and smaller, so with a scope hitting targets at longer ranges becomes actually more practical... but then what you are hitting them with also becomes an issue too.

Very small light calibre bullets don't tend to travel well... at short range and very high velocity their wounding capacity can be astounding, but as velocity rapidly drops its effect on target becomes rather less impressive... in face mediocre is a term I would use.

You could go for changing the 7.62x39mm round... a 122 grain bullet moving at about 720m/s is what you start with but of course having an 80 grain bullet in a 7.62x39mm case with the extra space freed up with more powder in it could have flattened the trajectory just fine but with a heavier harder hitting projectile than the 5.45x39mm round.

Brand new powders means you might be able to get 1,100m/s from a 100 grain bullet from the 7.62x39mm case... the extra bullet weight meaning it retains energy better... it will kick more, but that would only matter in burst fire... in single shot that would be a formidable round out to 400m-500m.

Those new plastic driving bands would eliminate excessive barrel wear issues and modern optics with digital video and IR capacity would mean day/night all weather capability and using built in rangefinders no trouble hitting targets out to extended ranges.

A little more kick but a lot more punch on target too... and with good bullet design good penetration of modern armour types too.

With 7,62x54mm agreed but they can build new cartridge to same dimensions right?

Well it is a tricky one... the old round has an exposed rim and the shell case gets narrower along its length so like the AK 7.62x39mm bullet it wont stack straight... it would need a curve. This is good for reliability because the hole the round is being pushed into has a wide base while the front of the bullet is narrow, whereas a straight cased round like a .22lr is the same width all the way down so you have to be careful loading it because if it goes in in an angle it can get stuck and jam.

Also with a belt fed machine gun with rimmed rounds the bullet needs to be taken out of the belt backwards and then rammed forward into the chamber, but a modern rimless round can be simply pushed forward straight into the chamber of the gun... it simplifies the design of the machine gun... but how much reliability of the PKM comes from the round being pulled out backward with any dirt or dust or ice shaken off the round from the belt before being rammed forward into the chamber... does that make it more reliable too?

looks cool the question is will it be produced along Pecheneg?

Well is it reliable first... it certainly looks pretty, but what sort of barrel options does it have and where is the rail underneath for a front grip or bipod?

These days I would ask is it 7.62x51mm and intended primarily for export...

Molot make the RPK... perhaps this is their response to Kalashnikov making the RPK-16.

[quote="GarryB"]

I dont see 7,62x39 long range career. too small accuracy not only slow with high trajectory curvature.

There were lots of good reasons for replacing the 7.62x39mm ammo in AKs, the flat trajectory meaning errors in guessing range have less effect on ability to hit targets at different ranges was one good reason, lower recoil, lighter ammo, are other reasons...

But time has moved on and if new rifles are going to have night vision equipment... laser range finders are getting cheaper and lighter and smaller, so with a scope hitting targets at longer ranges becomes actually more practical... but then what you are hitting them with also becomes an issue too.

Very small light calibre bullets don't tend to travel well... at short range and very high velocity their wounding capacity can be astounding, but as velocity rapidly drops its effect on target becomes rather less impressive... in face mediocre is a term I would use.[/quot]

5,45 armor-piercing can penetrate 5mm of armor steel from 550m. It doesnt seem to be mediocre to me. 7,62x39mm was never designed to be effective above 300m. This is not about gravitation drop but also accuracy. io dotn see also why to add expensive rangefinders and scopes to old cheap sort range AR?!

BTW M.43 round is subsonic already on 450m with -3m drop.
http://gundata.org/blog/post/7.62x39mm-ballistics-chart/

GB wrote:
You could go for changing the 7.62x39mm round... a 122 grain bullet moving at about 720m/s is what you start with but of course having an 80 grain bullet in a 7.62x39mm case with the extra space freed up with more powder in it could have flattened the trajectory just fine but with a heavier harder hitting projectile than the 5.45x39mm round.

Brand new powders means you might be able to get 1,100m/s from a 100 grain bullet from the 7.62x39mm case... the extra bullet weight meaning it retains energy better... it will kick more, but that would only matter in burst fire... in single shot that would be a formidable round out to 400m-500m.

Those new plastic driving bands would eliminate excessive barrel wear issues and modern optics with digital video and IR capacity would mean day/night all weather capability and using built in rangefinders no trouble hitting targets out to extended ranges.

A little more kick but a lot more punch on target too... and with good bullet design good penetration of modern armour types too.

looks logical yet from army perspective this is not justified either technically or economically or both. Im not army procurement cannot say why.

GB wrote:

With 7,62x54mm agreed but they can build new cartridge to same dimensions right?

Well it is a tricky one... the old round has an exposed rim and the shell case gets narrower along its length so like the AK 7.62x39mm bullet it wont stack straight... it would need a curve. This is good for reliability because the hole the round is being pushed into has a wide base while the front of the bullet is narrow, whereas a straight cased round like a .22lr is the same width all the way down so you have to be careful loading it because if it goes in in an angle it can get stuck and jam.

Also with a belt fed machine gun with rimmed rounds the bullet needs to be taken out of the belt backwards and then rammed forward into the chamber, but a modern rimless round can be simply pushed forward straight into the chamber of the gun... it simplifies the design of the machine gun... but how much reliability of the PKM comes from the round being pulled out backward with any dirt or dust or ice shaken off the round from the belt before being rammed forward into the chamber... does that make it more reliable too?

so only changing to nato caliber?

"GB wrote:

looks cool the question is will it be produced along Pecheneg?

Well is it reliable first... it certainly looks pretty, but what sort of barrel options does it have and where is the rail underneath for a front grip or bipod?

These days I would ask is it 7.62x51mm and intended primarily for export...

Molot make the RPK... perhaps this is their response to Kalashnikov making the RPK-16.

all is part of Kalashnikov. It has interchangeable barrel.

5,45 armor-piercing can penetrate 5mm of armor steel from 550m. It doesnt seem to be mediocre to me.

Have you ever looked at a human sized target 550m away?

I would say your chances of getting a hit on target without optics and without a full support would be very low and even if you did get a hit on target there would be zero chance of precise shot placement... if you do hit it could be anywhere and you have zero control of where that hit will take place.

The head and the chest plate are relatively small areas, so a hit somewhere else on the body would be more likely if a hit even occurs...

7,62x39mm was never designed to be effective above 300m.

Which makes it a bloody good choice as Assault Rifles are not supposed to be used at more than 300m either.

This is not about gravitation drop but also accuracy. io dotn see also why to add expensive rangefinders and scopes to old cheap sort range AR?!

They are getting night vision gear and rangefinders are not expensive any more... I have one for playing golf that cost me $100 that is fine out to about 600m.

New requirements for next generation Ratnik include aiming systems for weapons... target cueing and aiming assistance...

BTW M.43 round is subsonic already on 450m with -3m drop.

Hang on... lets at least be fair.... that chart shows a rifle zeroed at 100 yards, so of course the bullet drop at 450 yards is going to be significant... note it is not 450m, it is in yards. The bullet drop is shown as 89 inches drop at 450 yards.

The trajectory for .223 shows, with a zero at 100 yards that the bullet drop at 450 yards is 46 inches, which is not that fantastic... the energy is 252... compared with the 7.62x39mm round at 349 at the same distance... so it might have dropped more, but it has 1/3rd more energy... as long as you can estimate range you should be OK...

I mean if you had the rifle on the battle setting the actual drop on target will be the drop at 450 yards take away the drop at about 350 yards, which would be about 300metres.

So 89 inches drop take away 42 inches drop, equals 47 inches drop... and you would know at this sort of distance you have increasing bullet drop so you would have a hold over am point anyway... you should get a body hit...

Actually Barnaul cartridge company has this ballistics chart:

http://eng.barnaulpatron.ru/production/sportshuntingcartridgesshooting/76239ballistic.html

From the muzzle moving at 775m/s, their 123 grain FMJ bullet is moving at 518m/s at 300m with 1074 Joules of energy... which doesn't sound that bad to me... compare it with the .223 which leaves the muzzle at 994m/s but by 300m it is moving at only 610m/s with 664 Joules of energy.

looks logical yet from army perspective this is not justified either technically or economically or both. Im not army procurement cannot say why.

Well from an army perspective... use the new propellants that add 30% velocity and plastic driving bands to make the barrels last longer and just keep using the 5.45mm ammo... the extra velocity will make them flatter shooting and mean they get to the target a little quicker with a little more energy... the long slim projectiles means they will retain speed better so they will be more effective further out and offer better penetration but their length will mean a good chance of tumbling, which offers serious wounding potential.

The 6x49mm round to replace the 7.62x54mm round will make even more sense with more energy and better velocity and reduced barrel wear... the more powerful propellent probably meaning the same round could be effective to greater ranges or they might be able to make the round smaller... perhaps a 6x39mm for machineguns and rifles, and 5.45x39mm for assault rifles, LMGs, and SMGs...

They mentioned brand new propellent that could be rather more potent that is almost an explosive on its own that could offer very high velocities out of much shorter barrels and much cleaner burning materials... maybe a liquid or even a gas...

so only changing to nato caliber?

No huge advantage from shifting from a two century old calibre to a one century old one...

The 6x49mm was supposed to offer serious size and weight and recoil advantages as well as range and accuracy improvements... the 7.62x51mm is like a 7.62x54mm round that can't handle 200 grain bullets...

all is part of Kalashnikov. It has interchangeable barrel.

Just looking at the photo above I would say you pull out the barrel and the front shroud probably folds up and probably right over so it folds in half...

It should come with different barrel lengths and likely weights and possibly calibres... would think such a weapon would sell well in NATO calibres if it is reliable and accurate and not too heavy.

With the front barrel shroud folded over the top and the rear butt folded to the side it would be a very compact little package for an IFV or helo for transport.

If your prime minister learns that you are visiting a thread about assault rifles, GarryB…

Well when they ban all semi auto rifles and shotguns I look forward to the new black market it creates... Rocket launchers and flame throwers look like fun to me...

The seriously sad thing is they will rush through some half arsed rules and think that fixes the problem, but the reality is that the old rules didn't stop him doing what he did, why would new rules.

I can imagine a lot of very paranoid types thinking that the next step will be a complete ban on guns and they will simply bury the ones they have... the government really has no idea of who has what at the moment.

Of course car registrations and car warrants of fitness stop them from being misused or causing accidents.

The guy had 2 years to plan it and the government is trying to tell me if I hand in my semi auto rifles it will never happen again... you can bet your ass that some anti muslim or anti jew or anti hindu or anti something nut is planning to do something new.

Look at all those people who died in that tower block in London... how hard would it be to find a big sky scraper with lots of people in it and put fire bombs all through the lower 10 floors and then block all the exits and set fire to all the stairwells and then sit in a car down the street with a rifle and shoot at any fireman that goes near the building.... that building will burn down and collapse like 11/9 towers did and there will be conspiracy theories about nano explosives making it collapse when the heat of the fire destroys its structural integrity, and dozens of people will die a horrible death but the guy who does it doesn't care because he is a ..

Or he could simply mix up a batch of poison and start injecting it into food at the supermarket, or going to nightclubs and dropping it into peoples drinks when they are not looking... putting it on peoples door knobs...


Just like this asshole is.

If he hates muslims so much we should send him to Syria and he can be a good crusader... he probably wont like it when they can shoot back though. Bet he played Doom in god mode only...

But the majority don't own guns and those that do most don't own a lot or are particularly attached to their semi autos... certainly not enough to say anything in public to be called a redneck gun loving monster who hates new zealand and the flag etc etc.

Isn´t it strange that the western guys who drop bombs illegaly on brown people in the middle east are called heros and not white supremacists?

Looks like the sort of weapon you would see hanging on the wall of the spaceship of a predator alien...

Yeah, politicians seem to think laws will stop criminal behaviour... there were existing rules against shooting people, but this particular idiot ignored those too.

If more people were effected then they would not even consider it... he used four or five weapons... he clearly needed a car to do it but no question regarding restricting the private ownership of cars... cars are dangerous too...

With the advent of driverless cars I can see laws coming in to effect that mean it becomes illegal to drive yourself... how could you drive better than a computer...

This shooter just wants to see Western world burn and he wants old fart boomers like me - dead.
Funny thing is that he is getting all he wanted. Gun control and infectious publicity and now new threat of muslim revenge attacks. New Zealand is looking pathetic with PM, police officers and TV anchors virtue signaling by dressing in muslim attire. It sure should raise an eyebrow to majority of people as we were all desensitizaded by terrorist attacks in the world. Freak show of a country.

His ideology of accelerationism is getting very popular in disfranchised people as it's being discussed on many platforms - even by those who oppose him.

He was not racist towards muslims living in their own countries and he visited Pakistan and Turkey. He mentioned twice that China is his ideal country and he praised it for having same ideology as him.

You would be missing the point by calling him racist and you wouldn't hear a dog whistle. Christchurch Mosque was picked as a target due to it's connections with ISIS terrorism and due to irony of this towns name. He would have killed and shot Chistians if that would have helped his motives. This idiot wants to see revenge, death and fire. All I can say, that I am afraid for the future for my kids as it's a question of time when Syrian type of destruction will be brought back in European streets.

GarryB wrote:Looks like the sort of weapon you would see hanging on the wall of the spaceship of a predator alien...

An old rival of the AK-47. The magazine is over the top.

I don't even know the guys name and honestly don't want to know anything about him.

History is full of people who don't fit going on rampages and killing people.

The media used to call the Amok killers... to run amok is to go through the village and kill people randomly and as many as you can until stopped... the problem is that it is a malaysian word that predates firearms... the word is over 1,000 years old... and describes usually a man who goes through a village... normally his own but not always, with a large knife and kills people. Apart from the screams of his victims if he kills quickly and efficiently most of the time no one knows what is happening till it is too late...

Yeah, a complete gun ban will obviously stop murder... if they can't get their hands on guns... either legally or illegally, then there is fire, there are bombs... there are planes and buses and trucks and trains and boats... stadiums... every big city will have 1,000 fire trap buildings already... some will have rather more. Anywhere people gather in large numbers... hell there are places where vehicle tunnels.... get an explosive and attach it to a fuel truck... use GPS sensors to watch it go in one end of a car tunnel and block the other end by disabling a truck at the far end... the tunnel will fill up with vehicles and then the fuel truck explodes in the middle... doesn't even need to be a big bomb.

Anybody can sit down and work out ways of killing lots and lots of people with little real effort... sometimes even with a chance of not getting caught.

Most people wouldn't even consider doing anything like that... those people are called normal and generally obey laws and rules etc.

Anyone thinking they can make a law that will fix everything is an idiot for even trying... a group of people called criminals really don't care about the law... this shooter is an example... he broke several laws... and to be perfectly honest should not have had a gun licence in the first place because the police didn't even follow their own rules... these new rules wont ensure the old ones are enforced so why bother?

An old rival of the AK-47. The magazine is over the top.

Well to be flippant it is actually underneath...

I have seen an AK magazine that was a full half circle... I believe it held 100 rounds.

These new 95 round drums for the new AKs in 5.45mm look rather cool... wonder how reliable they can make them.

Video of comparison between Kalashnikov AK-12 military assault rifle, and TR-3 civilian market rifle (in Russian).

One thing i had not yet noticed is that on both the civilian and military rifle, the traditional AK side mount plate is not installed by default. I assume its a retrofit, and perhaps this is addressed in the video, my knowledge or Russian is rather limited.


https://vk.com/video-123538639_456254314?list=ebe5c93e555d8adb3d

0nillie0 wrote:Video of comparison between Kalashnikov AK-12 military assault rifle, and TR-3 civilian market rifle (in Russian).

One thing i had not yet noticed is that on both the civilian and military rifle, the traditional AK side mount plate is not installed by default. I assume its a retrofit, and perhaps this is addressed in the video, my knowledge or Russian is rather limited.


https://vk.com/video-123538639_456254314?list=ebe5c93e555d8adb3d

You could just embed the video:

Yeah, now they will come out with all sorts of amazing semi auto rifles to export for civilians.... damn it.