South Africa Armed Forces

Mir wrote:

andalusia wrote:How does the Rooivalk attack helicopter compare to the Best Russian attack helicopters and is it still being manufactured?

I personally think the Russian helicopters are superior in most aspects esp the Ka-52 but the Rooivalk proved very competitive and that's one of the reasons why the Americans refused the Hellfire missiles for the helicopter on the open market. The Rooivalk is no longer in production but is offered for export but is unlikely to find any customers. Despite all the sanctions against South Africa at the time the Rooivalk project proved to be an engineering marvel for our defense industry.

So the Rooivalk need Hellfire missiles to operate? Can they use another missile on the open market? Not having Hellfire missiles is preventing South Africa from exporting them to other countries?

They are pretty expensive and they are based off of French Puma.  Here is a comment from the article below:

"The Puma rotor parts are the problem, they have a very limited lifetime. So unless there is combat the South African Rooivalks aren’t allowed to fly loops, because every loop eats into it’s service life… (it got to heavy)"



https://southfront.org/the-south-african-beast-denels-ah-2-rooivalk-attack-helicopter/

andalusia wrote:
So the Rooivalk need Hellfire missiles to operate? Can they use another missile on the open market? Not having Hellfire missiles is preventing South Africa from exporting them to other countries?

They are pretty expensive and they are based off of French Puma.  Here is a comment from the article below:

"The Puma rotor parts are the problem, they have a very limited lifetime. So unless there is combat the South African Rooivalks aren’t allowed to fly loops, because every loop eats into it’s service life… (it got to heavy)"

No. South Africa developed their own anti-tank missile for the Rooivalk and is known as the Makopa. It was also armed with the indigenous Kukri short range AAM. However when South Africa wanted to bid for customers looking for new attack helicopters - like the British - they were not allowed to use the Hellfire missiles, which automatically disqualified the Rooivalk.

Mir wrote:

andalusia wrote:
So the Rooivalk need Hellfire missiles to operate? Can they use another missile on the open market? Not having Hellfire missiles is preventing South Africa from exporting them to other countries?

They are pretty expensive and they are based off of French Puma.  Here is a comment from the article below:

"The Puma rotor parts are the problem, they have a very limited lifetime. So unless there is combat the South African Rooivalks aren’t allowed to fly loops, because every loop eats into it’s service life… (it got to heavy)"

No. South Africa developed their own anti-tank missile for the Rooivalk and is known as the Makopa. It was also armed with the indigenous Kukri short range AAM. However when South Africa wanted to bid for customers looking for new attack helicopters - like the British - they were not allowed to use the Hellfire missiles, which automatically disqualified the Rooivalk.

What is so special about the Hellfire missiles? Countries will simply just buy South African missiles.

Nothing special but that was the requirement when the helicopter was evaluated by the UK and others.

The British specified a heavy, long range anti tank missile. Basically, they wrote the specs around the Hellfire.
The Rooivalk scored very highly in the British evaluation, as it did in the Australian competition.
But the Americans decided to threaten to refuse the integration of the Hellfire on to the Rooivalk if it won the evaluation over the Apache, which it was threatening to do.
This basically ensured the Rooivalk could not win, and led to the development of the Mokopa heavy long range anti tank missile by South Africa to prevent US pressure. But this was too late.

It is important to realise that a player like South Africa is at a massive disadvantage against places like the US and the EU when it comes to these kinds of competitions.
They simply cannot compete with US or EU bribes or threats, even if their product is superior. Military procurement programmes are notorious for this.

This basically ensured the Rooivalk is going nowhere, as it threatens huge US or EU defence interests.

andalusia wrote:


They are pretty expensive and they are based off of French Puma.  Here is a comment from the article below:

"The Puma rotor parts are the problem, they have a very limited lifetime. So unless there is combat the South African Rooivalks aren’t allowed to fly loops, because every loop eats into it’s service life… (it got to heavy)"



https://southfront.org/the-south-african-beast-denels-ah-2-rooivalk-attack-helicopter/

This comment by an internet user is incorrect.

The Rooivalk dynamic components are not the same as the original Puma (1500hp Turmo engine), but the same as the more powerful Oryx (1900hp Makila engine), which utilises stronger components due to its different powerplant.

The Oryx and Rooivalk are roughly the same maximum weight, and the same power. The components were redesigned to take into account the roughly 20-25% improvement in power and maximum allowable weight.

But then, that's internet comments for you....
Not even the skilled aerospace engineers and designers of the Rooivalk can compete with an internet expert commentator..

Yes the Onyx is very similar in specs to the basic French "Super Puma".

I personally think the Russian helicopters are superior in most aspects esp the Ka-52 but the Rooivalk proved very competitive and that's one of the reasons why the Americans refused the Hellfire missiles for the helicopter on the open market.

I would agree but I would also say that is the benefit of being an in service operational helicopter that money is spent on weapons and systems to allow them to do specific jobs.

I don't know a lot about the Rooivalk regarding its avionics, but it was supposed to be a good robust helicopter that is easier to service and operate than some more expensive models.

The Apache is very maintenance intensive though it is also a good aircraft... I remember in Desert Storm the availability rate for them was too low so they essentially tripled the support budget and got it up to respectable levels but support and repair and maintenance time on the ground per flight hour was not very good at all.

The Rooivalk seems to be comparable with the Mi-28A, where they were rugged reliable helicopters but certainly the Mil had limited optics and night and all weather capability.

I would expect the South Africans probably had some decent thermal imaging systems... I do remember the Russians were choosing between French and Swedish and South African thermals to licence produce and ended up going with French systems but the South African systems seem to be competitive too.

Despite all the sanctions against South Africa at the time the Rooivalk project proved to be an engineering marvel for our defense industry.

I seem to remember it came with a range of its own ATGMs that were quite respectable in their own right, and would likely be a fraction of the cost of Hellfire.

I rather suspect Hellfire was overrated... I seem to remember that a lost M1A2 tank in the Middle East in some conflict had to be abandonned and so they tried to destroy it and used Hellfires which hit turret front and failed to penetrate. They ended up smoking the tank with a Maverick I believe to prevent it getting into enemy hands.

At the time the spin was that the M1A2s armour was just amazing, but I suspect the Hellfire wasn't all it was cracked up to be was a more reasonable answer.

"The Puma rotor parts are the problem, they have a very limited lifetime. So unless there is combat the South African Rooivalks aren’t allowed to fly loops, because every loop eats into it’s service life… (it got to heavy)"

To be fair many western aircraft have serious performance limits during peace time to maximise their airframe lives... few western fighters will get any where near their top speeds or top g limits during peacetime and training simply to allow them to last longer.

No. South Africa developed their own anti-tank missile for the Rooivalk and is known as the Makopa.

That is the one I was thinking of... I remember reading its performance stats and they were pretty good for the time.

Of course the performance of any helicopter can be radically improved with new missiles... before the US used Hellfires they used TOW which is wire guided which seriously limited their ability to fly and manouver during an engagement. With a missile in flight you have to remain in the hover because if you are flying anywhere if the wire gets caught on something you could break it before the missile gets to the target.

With Hellfires and Shturms and Atakas and Makopa there is no trailing wire so the missile can fly much faster and the helicopter can be flying rather than just hovering.

Note a hovering helicopter is horribly vulnerable to enemy ground fire... if you are about 920-950m away from a hovering helicopter you can launch an RPG rocket at it... at that distance the warhead self destructs and you get an airburst that might kill the helicopter even if you don't hit it directly... Even the 40mm anti personel rocket can be used this way effectively to do damage.

However when South Africa wanted to bid for customers looking for new attack helicopters - like the British - they were not allowed to use the Hellfire missiles, which automatically disqualified the Rooivalk.

Easier to win contracts for Apaches if you deny access to weapons and technologies to the competition...

This basically ensured the Rooivalk is going nowhere, as it threatens huge US or EU defence interests.

Which should serve as a warning to potential allies... the US and EU were never going to fund teh An-70 because it would be direct competition to the A-400M and the C-130 upgrades and C-17 in some roles, so dreams of the west fixing and growing Antonov or Motor Sich were just that... dreams.

Ironically in a multipolar world imagine a Rooivalk with the rotor system of the Mi-28 which is being retrofitted to the Mi-24/35 because of its improved performance, plus a range of new missiles they operate... though I seem to remember the longer ranged Makopa was a good enough weapon and probably better and much cheaper than Hellfire.