[Official] Armata Discussion thread #5

That new helicopter is ugly as sin.

Deosn not seem like it can carry rocket or gun pods either.

I suppose its pointless inclusion of an internal weapons bay will result in much "fun" for pindostanski air crews too.

magnumcromagnon wrote:Absolute propaganda lmao!

1.) Hilarious, Kontakt-5 on T-72B3's won't even go off with 30mm autocannon fire.

2.) Kornet out-ranges 20mm autocannon fire by 5 fold, 10km effective range for Kornet vs. 2km for 20mm Autocannon. And 30mm has double the range of 20mm, 4km vs 2km range, and let's not talk about 57mm and new gen 125mm GLATGM with 12km range.  

3.) It's hilarious that they show Armata's out in the wide-open to even the odds for the Bellend Invictus lol!  Armata's would be hidden behind camo-nets and vegetation vs much louder helicopters exposed in the air. Not including range of Armata weapons, Armatas will detect them 10's of km's before Bell Invictus 360's would detect Armatas.    

Marketing video for customers. Fighting Armatas would be quite a chalenge for them. Armatas are also net worked to share real time informations and they are all equipped with laser and MAWS detectors and AESA radars for APS against ATGMs. T-15 with 30 mm or 57 mm guns RCWS will be armed with air burst programable rounds and could shot down ATGMs and suicide drones from those helicopters. T-15 and Derivatsia-PVO with 57 mm gun will be quite dangerous for those helicopters as they could fire on quite long range with unguided rounds.

LMFS wrote:More Disneyland fantasies for big children

Indeed.


Hmmm, looks like there's some differentiation in this 57mm turret for T-16.

Yes

If you have such stupid Generals to send 5 tanks with HE to face 50 enemy tanks you would have lost the war before it happens...

Not a question of intelligence... the Germans didn't tell them they were going to attack, and the shipments of T-34s arrived before the shipments of ammo for them arrived so borrowing ammo from a local 76mm artillery unit might be your best option to arm your tanks... and guess what ammo they have.

APS radar emmits a signal and can be spotted passively 2-3 times its range. Sometimes you don't want it to emmits so it would be turned off.

MMW radar is unusual... I have never ever heard of an anti MMW radar missile.... there are MMW radar guided missiles, but I have never seen either a missile designed to destroy such an antenna, nor a jammer of any kind.

The radar for ARENA has a range of about 50m so even 5 times it max range is 250m... and no they don't turn them off.

The T-90 hit in Syria with its SHTORA system turned off was vulnerable to TOW attack, but that is more down to the crew than the design...

Btw HE have good penetration values and can take out a tanks if they fire on very weakly protected part like in the rear turret which would send shrapnels in the engine from the top. It can also destroy the tracks. Specially russian HE which are powerfull.

Most modern vehicles have something called an anti spall liner... spall is the technical term for the inner layer of armour that can sometimes detach if the armour gets 90% penetrated...

Against Panzer IIs and IIIs it was not a terrible round to use, but their standard 76.2mm APHE round was actually fantastic and would have cut through them like a white hot knife through butter. There were other problems anyway...

Absolute propaganda lmao! lol1 pwnd

1.) Hilarious, Kontakt-5 on T-72B3's won't even go off with 30mm autocannon fire.

2.) Kornet out-ranges 20mm autocannon fire by 5 fold, 10km effective range for Kornet vs. 2km for 20mm Autocannon. And 30mm has double the range of 20mm, 4km vs 2km range, and let's not talk about 57mm and new gen 125mm GLATGM with 12km range. clown pwnd

3.) It's hilarious that they show Armata's out in the wide-open to even the odds for the Bellend Invictus lol! lol1 Armata's would be hidden behind camo-nets and vegetation vs much louder helicopters exposed in the air. Not including range of Armata weapons, Armatas will detect them 10's of km's before Bell Invictus 360's would detect Armatas. clown pwnd

More fundamentally it is not the tanks and BMPs they have to worry about... it is the TORs and SOSNAs and Pantsirs... as well as the 2S38s.

Manturov also confirmed today that the import substitution of thermal imager and engine issues for the Armata have been solved.

https://tass.ru/interviews/9093059

Thermal imager issue was resolved years ago. I think the issue was something else. I posted about the imager year or two ago

Unless they had come up with something even newer and better that I haven't seen before.

Russia’s top brass wants to replace Armata with two-section ‘tank of the future’

MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The concept of a two-section ‘tank of future’ designed to replace the latest Armata armored vehicle after the 2040s was presented at the Army-2020 international military and technical forum on Tuesday.

The concept was presented by the 38th R&D and Testing Institute of Armored Hardware and Armament, which drafts requirements for advanced armor.

The Institute’s specialists believe that the Armata tank and its versions will be effective on the battlefield until the 2040s but it is necessary already now to lay the groundwork for a tank of a distant future.

"Specialists of the 38th Institute today perceive such a combat vehicle in the option of a coupled two-section design. The front combat module may have a control compartment with three crewmembers in a highly protected armored capsule. The module’s medium part is expected to accommodate an unmanned turret with a mounted electro-thermochemical cannon with an automatic loader," Institute Deputy Chief Colonel Yevgeny Gubanov said.

The tank’s second section coupled with the first is expected to accommodate a 3,000 hp multi-fuel gas turbine engine. The second module is also expected to carry air and ground drones to conduct reconnaissance, search for mines and perform security functions.

Armament

The future tank’s electro-thermochemical cannon will use new compounds instead of gunpowder that will be ignited by an electric discharge. The tank will fire hypersonic shells.

The tank’s front module will also be outfitted with reactive armor, a blinding laser weapon and an electromagnetic pulse generator. The module’s rear part will accommodate vertical take-off homing missiles with an operating range of up to 12 km.

As the Institute’s specialists explain, further build-up of tanks’ firepower and armor within the existing configurations considerably increase their mass. The coupling of two sections will help reduce specific ground pressure and solve this problem. The Institute’s specialists also believe that the tank’s general-purpose engine compartment can be used together with manned modules for motor rifle personnel and combat modules with the armament of various caliber and designations.

The tank’s crew will be combat aware with the help of the ‘transparent armor" vision technology when information from various external sensors is transmitted to the crew inside the armored capsule.

PhSt wrote:Russia’s top brass wants to replace Armata with two-section ‘tank of the future’

MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The concept of a two-section ‘tank of future’ designed to replace the latest Armata armored vehicle after the 2040s was presented at the Army-2020 international military and technical forum on Tuesday.

The concept was presented by the 38th R&D and Testing Institute of Armored Hardware and Armament, which drafts requirements for advanced armor.

The Institute’s specialists believe that the Armata tank and its versions will be effective on the battlefield until the 2040s but it is necessary already now to lay the groundwork for a tank of a distant future.

"Specialists of the 38th Institute today perceive such a combat vehicle in the option of a coupled two-section design. The front combat module may have a control compartment with three crewmembers in a highly protected armored capsule. The module’s medium part is expected to accommodate an unmanned turret with a mounted electro-thermochemical cannon with an automatic loader," Institute Deputy Chief Colonel Yevgeny Gubanov said.

The tank’s second section coupled with the first is expected to accommodate a 3,000 hp multi-fuel gas turbine engine. The second module is also expected to carry air and ground drones to conduct reconnaissance, search for mines and perform security functions.

Armament

The future tank’s electro-thermochemical cannon will use new compounds instead of gunpowder that will be ignited by an electric discharge. The tank will fire hypersonic shells.

The tank’s front module will also be outfitted with reactive armor, a blinding laser weapon and an electromagnetic pulse generator. The module’s rear part will accommodate vertical take-off homing missiles with an operating range of up to 12 km.

As the Institute’s specialists explain, further build-up of tanks’ firepower and armor within the existing configurations considerably increase their mass. The coupling of two sections will help reduce specific ground pressure and solve this problem. The Institute’s specialists also believe that the tank’s general-purpose engine compartment can be used together with manned modules for motor rifle personnel and combat modules with the armament of various caliber and designations.

The tank’s crew will be combat aware with the help of the ‘transparent armor" vision technology when information from various external sensors is transmitted to the crew inside the armored capsule.

T-15 next to t-72. Huge vehicle.

Wonder why the Bell thinks a new stealth helicopter will survive better than the old Commanche... now that Russian air defences are engaging and destroying hand held drone sized targets....

TOR was supposed to deal with Hellfire missiles as well as Apache helicopters... it seems the 20-25km range Hermes has IIR guidance and a two way datalink and is intended for shooting down air targets as well as ground targets...

T-15 next to t-72. Huge vehicle.

True but T-72 was always tiny too...

GarryB wrote:Wonder why the Bell thinks a new stealth helicopter will survive better than the old Commanche... now that Russian air defences are engaging and destroying hand held drone sized targets....

TOR was supposed to deal with Hellfire missiles as well as Apache helicopters... it seems the 20-25km range Hermes has IIR guidance and a two way datalink and is intended for shooting down air targets as well as ground targets...

T-15 next to t-72. Huge vehicle.

True but T-72 was always tiny too...

External dimension of Armata vehicles are huge but this is not a defect per se.
At the contrary it follow the same protection pattern of all the previous Sviet/rus tanks: reducing the vulnerable, vital space so to concentrate the protection on it, getting the level of armor in of an heavy tank in a medium one.
Now, with the unmanned gun pod and all crew in the hull , those vital space is at is minimum but without the downsize of cramped interior and limited gun elevation and depression.

George1 wrote:Russian defense firm to develop tank support combat vehicle based on Armata platform

https://tass.com/defense/1195529

Interesting, I wonder if this will be a BMPT like vehicle or a new take on assault guns like the ISU-152.

It was a real shame that the Soviets did not contiune to produce assault guns.

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Actually probably not a bad image... except it is most likely both sections will be electric drive vehicles and likely the rear section will have a 3,000hp gas turbine engine, likely with batteries in both sections and probably a small gas turbine to provide electrical power when the main engine is not needed for moving.

Both portions will be rather well armoured likely with the crew in the back section and the gun and turret and all the ammo in the front portion.

The vertical launched 15km range missiles are most likely 9M100 missiles... used to shoot down incoming munitions and aircraft like those helicopters.

External dimension of Armata vehicles are huge but this is not a defect per se.

The biggest problem with the big western tanks is not their physical size as such but their massive weight and in the case of the Abrams its fuel consumption...

Russian defense firm to develop tank support combat vehicle based on Armata platform

BMPTs will be useful for convoy escort and also for supporting tanks but ironically they are high firepower vehicles suitable for engaging enemy infantry and non armoured targets so in COIN type situations they would actually make more sense than using tanks when the enemy has no heavy armour...

Interesting, I wonder if this will be a BMPT like vehicle or a new take on assault guns like the ISU-152.

It was a real shame that the Soviets did not continue to produce assault guns.

Actually I would say they did keep direct fire guns.... they carrier a lot more HE Frag ammo in their tanks than western tanks do, and also the BMP-1 and BMP-3 with direct fire 73mm and 100mm guns respectively do have direct fire weapons.

I would think having artillery on call actual assault guns would not be needed most of the time, but certainly if there is a situation where the enemy are well barricaded then they do have 240mm mortars and 203mm 2S7M weapons in the inventory if they want them...

Bell has given it the name "Invictus" so it will never be defeated or overcome and will always triumph.

Living the American dream only makes sense when you remain asleep...

The-thing-next-door wrote:

George1 wrote:Russian defense firm to develop tank support combat vehicle based on Armata platform

https://tass.com/defense/1195529

Interesting, I wonder if this will be a BMPT like vehicle or a new take on assault guns like the ISU-152.

It was a real shame that the Soviets did not contiune to produce assault guns.

The T-14 with a (newly designed) 152.4mm cannon turret apparently already exists, but there hasn't been any public images of it as of now. The T-95 from the 2000's decade had a 152.4mm cannon turret, and it passed all it's tests with flying colors but was shelved in favor of the modular Armata heavy platform series.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

The T-14 with a (newly designed) 152.4mm cannon turret apparently already exists, but there hasn't been any public images of it as of now. The T-95 from the 2000's decade had a 152.4mm cannon turret, and it passed all it's tests with flying colors but was shelved in favor of the modular Armata heavy platform series.

Yes, the problem was in the T-95 tank, not in the gun + loading system in itself.
So, now that the T-14 i in serial production it would be not an huge problem to adapt a new gun on it.
It would not probably be conceived as a total substitute but as an integration to actual model: adding a company of them for each Armata based (both T-14 and T-15) regiment/brigate would be sufficient.

Well the interesting thing is that during WWII they had light tanks and medium tanks and heavy tanks, but that was replaced soon after the war with Main Battle Tanks like the T-54/55 that just had good all round features of big guns and good armour and good mobility... it made light and heavy tanks redundant.

With the 152mm gun armed Armata, it will be interesting to find out what their plans are... certainly with the larger calibre a bigger round means more space for electronics and propulsion for missiles and rounds... maybe they are planning to use then differently... a go forward and fight toe to toe T-14 with a 125mm gun which is still pretty good today, while 152mm gun armed T-14s sit back and snipe from long range at selected targets including helicopters.

They were talking about 12km range gun launched missiles for the 125mm gun, so 16-20km for 152mm calibre shouldn't be that difficult to achieve... especially if they launch drones to get a better view...

The Typhoon tank model would be a wheeled light tank along with the Sprut tracked light tank, and of course the Kurganets tracked tank could probably be therefore considered a medium tank, with Armata being the heavy tank...

I would assume the T-14 turret ring and turret mount would have been designed with the 152mm gun in mind so I suspect the new gun would likely probably just be slotted in with the autoloader perhaps replaced with one to handle the different rounds... the real question being will this be the last solid powder propellent gun... maybe liquid propellent or EM plasma guns are on their way....

I wonder if the 152mm armed Armata will have increased armor, in essence being a heavy/elite tank that can be built in the same factory and with most of the same components as your main tank.

franco wrote:Have noticed around the web, people questioning what the order for 132 T-14 and T-15 represents.

- Tank battalion in a Tank brigade/regiment has 31 tanks per times 3 battalions = 93 T-14
- Motor Rifle battalion in a BMP ATGM mounted unit has 37 BMP's times 1 battalion = 37 T-15
- Brigade / regiment HQ has 1 tank and 1 BMP = 1 T-14 + 1 T-15
- Total 94 T-14 + 38 T-15 = 132

Recovering this great post from 2018 by franco and trying to make sense of it... better two years late than never  

Will the Armata (that means T-14 and T-15) be the main vehicle in the tank units only? The current order seems enough to equip one tank regiment. Or may the T-15 be used also in motor rifle divisions / regiments?

BTW if any of you has a good source on current Russian army order of battle it would be great

The Armata is supposed to be modular, but of course I don't know whether they will go for grades of armour.

The whole point of the Armata family is to have all sorts of Armata vehicles operating together... but for instance a tank Armata is going to want the best armour, whereas a command Armata might go for reduced armour perhaps because command vehicles currently are ACRV type vehicles based on the MTLB which obviously doesn't have anything like tank level armour and would not be travelling around the front lines much.

If they do use different levels of protection to perhaps reduce weight or cost, then a special HMBT with a 152mm gun might have extra armour added, but of course I would expect the more powerful gun would allow it to engage targets at greater ranges where even if it has the same armour as the T-14 with the 125mm gun will work better from further away... certainly against kinetic rounds.

Will the Armata (that means T-14 and T-15) be the main vehicle in the tank units only? The current order seems enough to equip one tank regiment. Or may the T-15 be used also in motor rifle divisions / regiments?

They have a lot of vehicles they need to develop to create all Armata units... I suspect they will probably start by making the vehicles that are ready first and just displacing non Armata vehicles from the units as they are developed.

Honestly I think the turrets will get designed first because for most platforms the turret contains the necessary equipment for the role.... once they are ready then putting them on the different vehicle chassis is most of the work done to make that vehicle.

I would suspect the Boomerang vehicles being lighter and cheaper and easier to make will be first in Boomerang units...

There are supposed to be 26-27 different unique vehicles in a division that they need to have Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang versions of, so essentially 26-27 equipment and sensor and weapon suites that need to be fitted to the three different vehicle basis... well 5 actually because there are two Armata versions.... front engine and rear engine... and probably Typhoon light vehicle families as well... though likely not the heaviest models...

Anyone with a list of the vehicles in a Russian motor rifle and tank division, please do post it here because then we can look through at all the different versions of Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang that they will have to make to get unified divisions working.

They will probably start with Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang regiments and brigades and then work up to divisions.