Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

sepheronx wrote:Russia has third largest defense budget.

Not anymore thanks to ruble devaluation.

sepheronx wrote:An aircraft carrier costs roughly 1 - 3 billion, which is peanuts for Russias procurement (procurement alone is over $300B for 8 years).

They are only "peanuts" if you ignore the demands of the rest of the armed forces.

sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.

Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable. They also built half the Mistral. It wouldnt take much to build the other half and conjoining them, even for AC.

We are not even talking of super carrier but a pocket carrier.

The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

So try harder.

sepheronx wrote:Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable.

I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

sepheronx wrote:The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.
Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.
And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.
As much as the Russian Navy wants another fixed-wing aircraft carrier, they won't get any in the next decades.

Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment. Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it? Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier. Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks. Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes, lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."



Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.

You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable.

I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

sepheronx wrote:The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.
Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.
And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.
As much as the Russian Navy wants another fixed-wing aircraft carrier, they won't get any in the next decades.

You can be sure of anything without anything to back up why you have such opinions, eh?

As well, $300B is a ton. And what is even more interesting, is that this wasn't the first, SAP, and this isn't the last SAP. This will modernize the forces to 70%. The rest will easily be attainable with even less funds in the future. Once again, $1- 3B is not a lot for a ship. Do the math. Next SAP was speculated to be roughly $800B but more than likely will end up the same number. BTW, SAP is procurement, not on other things like wages.

If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China... Speaking of which, about those cranes, i mentioned this some time ago, why on earth aren't they buying one or even better, several of those chinese 1000 tons cranes? Even the british bought one (or more?) to build their QEC! They only cost peanuts comparatively, just a few tens of millions.

Reconstruction of the bulk pool of "Sevmash"

To get an idea of then and now (pics of the aircraft carrier as well).

There was a crane being assembled for a Russian shipyard I mentioned not long ago. I cannot remember which shipyard. But there are engineering companies and even a company that specialized in just Cranes, that would be more than willing to make a massive crane as long as there is $ involved.

mack8 wrote:If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China...  Speaking of which, about those cranes, i mentioned this some time ago, why on earth aren't they buying one or even better, several of those chinese 1000 tons cranes? Even the british bought one (or more?) to build their QEC! They only cost peanuts comparatively, just a few tens of millions.

The 1000 ton capacity crane at Rosyth cost just over £12m about 4 years ago. The QE carrier is 280m by 39m(waterline), 70.000 tons. Cost is a minimum of £3B each.

Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment. Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it? Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier. Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks. Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes, lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."



Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.

You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.

As noted, Zvezda shipyard will be able to handle ships with displacement of up to 300,000 tons.  The project is indeed a JV with S.Korea.  If it can build carriers or not, is up due to technical reasons more so than the capability of the shipyard.  I have already provided the data on this: http://dcss.ru/en/projects/construction-of-zvezda-shipbuilding-complex.html

If it is able to build military projects or not, I dunno.  But I imagine it could be done as most civilian industries in the past converted to military production with not much investments.

I would say, with even the pictures involved on the conversion of the Kiev class ship to a fixed wing carrier, it was quite impressive.  Even without the initial investment in Sevmash shipyard.

And I dunno where you get the idea that anyone is saying super carriers.  But small pocket carriers would be idea for Russia.  As well, they can also fit catapults hence why Russia is investing in it (If you know better than the Russian engineers and MIC, I highly suggest you contact them).

If they can retrofit any other cruisers that they have into a carrier, it could be very ideal for them for the time being. Since they are interested in building a carrier eventually, I imagine they will invest the needed funds into a shipyard to build it. Since Zvezda shipyard is going to be their largest shipyard, I imagine it will be that. But that wont be until after 2020 since 2018 is the initial completion date of the Zvezda shipyard.

well the guy quoted me and said another carrier is a dream. i said kuznetsov type medium-heavy carrier was possible and without large new investments and they have experience and ability.
better that then supercariers anyway. on basis of time and costs and availability. and i dont think russia should go for supercarriers anyway 60-70.000 tonns is enough.
kuznetsov redesign without granits, bit wider deck, smaller island, and no boilers but nuclear power unit form icebreakers (saving time and some money there), it would have more room for aircraft.
it could have 60-70 aircraft  and be quite usefull. so you prove me right actually.

Admiralty Shipyard building ways can accommodate ships up to 70,000 tons and 250M in length at current stage.  So it could be used to build smaller carriers. If need be, the initial investment of new cranes could be needed and that would benefit greatly.

lets just mention 70.000 tonns in not small at all- its medium to heavy. kuznetsov is about 61.000 tonns. chinese lianoning i mentioned in first post as a possiblity for russian shipyards is 67.000 tonns.

Since I don't know where to put this:

"Star" will be the largest shipyard in Russia


Here are photos from Oct last year:
http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/53798/

Rmf wrote:lets just mention 70.000 tonns in not small at all- its medium to heavy. kuznetsov is about 61.000 tonns. chinese lianoning i mentioned in first post as a possiblity for russian shipyards is 67.000 tonns.

From the official website:
http://admship.ru/?page_id=60&lang=en

PRODUCTION CAPACITIES

Today JSC “Admiralteiskie Verfi” is a modern high-tech diversified enterprise equipped with the machine and engineering equipment provided by leading global manufacturers. The production capacities including two open slipways, five covered berths and two floating docks enable to construct state-of-the-art ships up to 70 000 DWT.

In the Ru Navy thread, I posted a video about STAR (Zvezda Shipyard) construction and also link to photos from last year. Apparently Korea backed out of the project due to major decrease in sales for ships in their own Hyundai shipyard. But what is funny is how Rosneft is already signing deals for ships at the shipyard: http://www.setcorp.ru/main/pressrelease.phtml?language=english&news_id=59898&pr=all&mime=text/html&charset=windows-1251

And apparent deals worth up to $36B: http://tass.ru/en/economy/819520

I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

Building a ship is building a ship... in fact planning and implementing a total rebuild of an existing vessel into another form like the did for India with the gorshkov is rather harder than simply building from scratch a new vessel.

BTW China has no experience with actually building their own design aircraft carrier either...

Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.

Ummm... do you think they plucked that number from the sky as a guess... or do you think they did a lot of planning and actually worked out that that was the amount of money they needed to do the job they intended to do... if it is the latter than I would think it would be enough because that is what they plan to do.

Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.

Russia doesn't need to send forces to Afghanistan for long expensive stays, and Iraq and other places the US drags them to...

And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.

But they do have one pig fucker of a leader...

If Spain, and France and the UK and Thailand and South Korea and Australia can afford light carriers then Russia could certainly afford a couple.

Or are you suggesting if the UK can't afford it then Russia can't... because the UK can't afford strategic bombers yet Russia seems to have quite a few... not to mention truck based ICBMs...

You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.

Why do you think the Russian navy bothers with Kuznetsov?

Why hire facilities in the Ukraine for carrier training?

Why bother with Mistral carriers?

WTF are you talking about super carriers for?

Zvezda is being planned for use in building super tankers and other very large cargo ship production.

Work on the yard, intended to build ships up to 360m and 250,000dwt

source: http://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/russian-energy-majors-could-take-over-shipyard-project

note... 360m long is very long, and 250,000dwt is fucking enormous... for those not familiar with dwt... that is dead weight tonnage and is a measure of how much a ship can safely carry, so we are not talking about 250 thousand ton ships we are talking about ships that can carry 250 thousand ton payloads...

If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China...

I am glad they are gone... being able to design and build a new vessel from a blank sheet of paper means they will end up with a much better vessel than if they had to base it on another design.

They are planning naval versions of the PAK FA... would it be worth it for one carrier?

Great post Gary.

Let me add that the procurement plan of Russia is indeed planned out and spread to various areas (air, land and sea). And SAP2020 isnt first nor last sap. After this one, there will be another procurement plan. Even if less in terms of money, will be easily enough as by 2020, 70% of Russias forces will be modernized. There may be more focus on Navy afterwards. This one is more focused on airforce it seems. Ground forces is more or less inbetween.

GarryB wrote:Building a ship is building a ship... in fact planning and implementing a total rebuild of an existing vessel into another form like the did for India with the gorshkov is rather harder than simply building from scratch a new vessel.

And? Sevmash's work shows that they could not do it without severe delays and cost overruns.

GarryB wrote:BTW China has no experience with actually building their own design aircraft carrier either...

The PRC has more money to burn and shipyards which did not experience decay in the last decades.

GarryB wrote:Ummm... do you think they plucked that number from the sky as a guess... or do you think they did a lot of planning and actually worked out that that was the amount of money they needed to do the job they intended to do... if it is the latter than I would think it would be enough because that is what they plan to do.

I think that you should stop beating around the bush.

GarryB wrote:Russia doesn't need to send forces to Afghanistan for long expensive stays, and Iraq and other places the US drags them to...

Russia has had other commitments in countries like Georgia and Tadjikistan in the last decades.

GarryB wrote:If Spain, and France and the UK and Thailand and South Korea and Australia can afford light carriers then Russia could certainly afford a couple.

Or are you suggesting if the UK can't afford it then Russia can't... because the UK can't afford strategic bombers yet Russia seems to have quite a few... not to mention truck based ICBMs...

Mate, we are not talking about light carriers (<30,00 tonnes displacement).

Then admirality shipyard would be the one to do it since they have the capacity to do upwards to 70,000DWT. Maybe it would take them long and expensive for first inital build for shipyard upgrades and training, but once done, its done. Rather buy it locally produced and expensive rather than paying someone else.

Firebird wrote:How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?

Main factor to consider is if Russia wants one and is ready to fall back upon a proven/completely designed carrier. In short 1143.5 Kuznetsov or 1143.7 Ulyanovsk, both of them were completed designs and that is the factor to consider. Design and documentation is a major part and without getting it completed you simply cannot built a ship.

Could an updated clone of the Kuznetsov be done quickly and efficiently?

Yes it can be and Sevmash was confident of building a new carrier in a much compressed time frame. Moreover the entire suppliers and supply chain was re-established while undertaking Project 11430 for Indian Navy.

INS Vikramaditya (VKD) was completed in 8 years (with irregular and halted funding) and mind that it was double the work of a normal carrier as it started off with first gutting the carrier and then rebuilding it. A new carrier of that size or Kuznetsov (with original documentation/completed updated documentation = design process is complete) size when started from fresh piece of metal will take no more than 5years with proper funding (& manpower) with additional time for trials and acceptance.  

This would mean economies of scale if it shared parts with the Kuznetsov, and mean that Russia isnt without a crucial AC carrier, when one is being refitted.

Major and critical parts that I think needs to be shared for logistical, spares and economical reasons are (though not necessary either),
Propulsion system
1) Steam turbines (no need for change even if N-propulsion is opted instead of the KVG-3D boilers)
2) Gear assembly (no need for change)
3) Propellers & shafts (no need for change)
The above three are replaced or requirement for a new during a carriers lifetime arise only if there is a complete failure of the system or if your propeller falls off like we saw on Charles De Gaulle. VKD retained its original propulsion system, except for the new diesel boilers, all others system were refurbished/serviced and the carrier moved out on its own power after nearly 12-13 years. Even during the intense sea trials, only the new boilers gave up which was due to the new eco-friendly firebrick liners which were being used for the first time instead of asbestos.  

This was the kind of deep service/overhauling I wanted to see on Kuznetsov while under 'repairs'.

4) Arrester wire and Chokes.
5) Elevators, numerous motors and pumps.

All said, it depends on whether Russia is ready to take a calculated risk with funding and move ahead for another of 11437 class.

Militarov wrote:Not very likely imo. Best i could imagine is Kuznetsov getting its boilers replaced with reactor since its known for having propulsion issues,

Putting a reactor inside the Kuznetsov will be much more time consuming as it might require getting back to design. Much better and simpler option if the requirement is "urgent" is to upgrade its propulsion with the new KVG-3D boilers replacing its older KVG-3 units and a good overhaul of its propulsion system.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.

Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

Dima wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.

Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

Is that supposed to be good work?

Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment.

Really?
What do you base you opinion on?

Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it?

You are mixing things. Sevmash is a shipyard with a limited/in-house design team not covering the entire spectrum of ship design. There are dedicated design houses in Russia and they design subs and ships. A shipyards main business is to built ships according to the documentation/spec supplied by design house/customer.

Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier.

Set aside Zevzda, its not Sevmash.

Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks.

You are kidding my dear!

The only obstacle Sevmash is having w.r.t to Kuznetsov or new carrier construction is the entry/flood gates to Sevmash basin!!!
Get this little but very very important fact right!!!
Once you understand this little stuff you will understand why Sevmash cannot built an aircraft carrier in its basin.

By God's grace, Project 11430 was lucky as the aircraft carrying cruiser managed to squeeze through the narrow flootgates of Sevmash yard into the basin with barely 1m clearance on either side. It was equally laborious while exiting but it was navigated/tugged in and out by highly skilled/experienced personals without any incident, not even a slightest scratch on the hull.

Just for info, Pr.1143.4 Kiev class has a max waterline beam of nearly 32 meters where as Pr.1143.7 Kuznetsov has a max waterline beam of nearly 36 meters. Unless the entry is widened there is no chance for Kuznetsov to enter the basin or a new carrier with similar or wider beam to be constructed inside the yard permises. Crane capacity is secondary here as they can even do with piecing together small sections.

Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes,

Hope you meant Nikolayev South Shipyard. Do you really think lifting capacity of a 1,000t is the baseline capacity that a shipyard needs? Its good to have such a capability, but its not the end of world. The heaviest block that I have seen those cranes lift are the huge superstructure of Pr.1143.4 Baku/Admiral Gorshkov. The large superstructure that we still see on INS Vikramaditya was installed on the deck as a single pre-fabricated block/module during its construction by those two cranes.

lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."

Do you mean to say that Russia cant start constructing a carrier by 2018?

but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier.

The first and fore most reason as always is funds and secondary is the dry dock to buit coz the only experienced yard now with carrier construction doesnt have the required dry dock to facilitate construction.

Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay.

Sevmash have plenty of outfitting space.

Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.

Take the dimensions I earlier posted and check once more and you will see a solution. Its just a bottle neck.

I will explain.
1) Widen the entry to Sevmash basin/yard. This will be cheaper than constructing a new 400m x 70m dry dock which was earlier planned.
2) See the capacity of Sevmash 302 x 44m. Its the covered slipway on which n-subs are constructed. Two lines in parallel with common rail for cranes. Downside being obstruction in N-sub construction.
3) Utilize this installed capacity to built hull sections which will negate the need for heavy lift cranes in the basin or on floating docks.
4) Float them out into the basin for final assembly, preferrably on a floating dry dock which can be fabricated in Sevmash itself. Each time basin will need to be flooded.
5) Float the completed hull out of the basin for outfitting to free up the basin.

All these will depend on the entry/exit, coz we have not advanced enough to see a flying carrier.  

In my humble opinon, its doable and in Sevmash itself but depends on three things - Plan, Resolve & Funds. Everything else comes into place automatically.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Dima wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.

Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

Is that supposed to be good work?

Define work.