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HoleAnd in todays Russia all these companies pay taxes. Also they´re mostly owned by the state so the profit will stay in Russia.
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New START Treaty
Hole- Posts : 11115
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Arrow- Posts : 3449
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Russia will eventually have total nuclear superiority and the west will no longer know how to even design one part of a new missile being forced to forever rely on updated missiles from the 1970s. wrote:
This is happening. The US has the old ICBM from the 70s and the old SLBM from the 80s and Russia has modern ICBM missiles, SLBM, new SSBN, new ALCM, new hypersonic missiles and Avangard warheads. Russian nuclear forces have a significant advantage over the US.
Hole- Posts : 11115
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The greatest advantage is the cost. Russia spend a few billions for these modernisation while on the other side of the Atlantic a trillion was allocated without much to show.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Hole wrote:The greatest advantage is the cost. Russia spend a few billions for these modernisation while on the other side of the Atlantic a trillion was allocated without much to show.
American companies operate at a very hefty cost + profit at over 100% these days. Russian companies get at best about 7% profit. Plus the programs are cheaper cause they locally source everything while US they have to.import everything. Also majority of US professionals aren't even Americans. So there is that too.
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Location : portugal
miketheterrible wrote:Hole wrote:The greatest advantage is the cost. Russia spend a few billions for these modernisation while on the other side of the Atlantic a trillion was allocated without much to show.
American companies operate at a very hefty cost + profit at over 100% these days. Russian companies get at best about 7% profit. Plus the programs are cheaper cause they locally source everything while US they have to.import everything. Also majority of US professionals aren't even Americans. So there is that too.
Not even that. It's 3 to 5% profit in domestic contracts, and sometimes none. I remember from a company director interview. Obviously in export contracts the profits are much larger.
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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An arms race now would cost the west rather more than it would cost Russia... the west doesn't even have an IADS network over individual countries let alone a collective one across HATO or the EU...
Building such a system would not be an affordable thing for them... they would have to close schools and hospitals because they have made Russia out to be their biggest threat... they can't just ignore it now... they have learned to fritter away their money on stuff that does not do what is required... products don't fail any more... the requirements are quietly changed to match the performances achieved...
My best guess is that they will likely extend the new START treaty for the 5 years or so it can be extended and worry about it later... by then it probably wont be Trumps fault.
Lets face it... the democrats have noticed Trump tearing down anything that Obama could have claimed to have achieved in office so who is going to bet the next democrat government wont do the same to Trumps achievements anyway.
It all makes agreements with the US rather worthless anyway.
Building such a system would not be an affordable thing for them... they would have to close schools and hospitals because they have made Russia out to be their biggest threat... they can't just ignore it now... they have learned to fritter away their money on stuff that does not do what is required... products don't fail any more... the requirements are quietly changed to match the performances achieved...
My best guess is that they will likely extend the new START treaty for the 5 years or so it can be extended and worry about it later... by then it probably wont be Trumps fault.
Lets face it... the democrats have noticed Trump tearing down anything that Obama could have claimed to have achieved in office so who is going to bet the next democrat government wont do the same to Trumps achievements anyway.
It all makes agreements with the US rather worthless anyway.
Hole- Posts : 11115
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Now there is the murican dumbass responsible for "negotiations" who demands that Russia suspends the five projects (Sarmat, Kinzhal, Avangard, Burevestnik and Poseidon) and China joins the treaty or else… 
The guy is so dumb, he claims that the russian economy is in shambles because of the low oil price and corona.
Just to remember, the guy is from an country with 25 - 30% unemployment and debt of 250 Trill.!
The guy is so dumb, he claims that the russian economy is in shambles because of the low oil price and corona.
Just to remember, the guy is from an country with 25 - 30% unemployment and debt of 250 Trill.!
kvs- Posts : 15847
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Hole wrote:Now there is the murican dumbass responsible for "negotiations" who demands that Russia suspends the five projects (Sarmat, Kinzhal, Avangard, Burevestnik and Poseidon) and China joins the treaty or else…
The guy is so dumb, he claims that the russian economy is in shambles because of the low oil price and corona.
Just to remember, the guy is from an country with 25 - 30% unemployment and debt of 250 Trill.!
Funny how these chimps were screeching that none of the Russian weapons systems were real or viable and now they want
them regulated.
Hole- Posts : 11115
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If this is the level of knowledge about Russia in Murica, then it is realy a mix between 
and
and
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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Having no treaty at all is not the worst situation for Russia... I don't see a problem.
It is a bit like the INF treaty... it made sense, but mostly for the EU, because it is vulnerable to attack... now that it is over it isn't a big problem for Russia.
Not very much debate about it in the EU I notice though... and how vulnerable it makes them...
It is a bit like the INF treaty... it made sense, but mostly for the EU, because it is vulnerable to attack... now that it is over it isn't a big problem for Russia.
Not very much debate about it in the EU I notice though... and how vulnerable it makes them...
kvs- Posts : 15847
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https://vz.ru/politics/2020/5/10/1038650.print.html
Russian version. The gist is that the US is demanding concessions from Russia to extend the START accords in 2021 which Russia
will never concede to. The yanqui clowns really believe that Russia is too poor to engage in a nuclear arms race.
1) Russia has vast resources to generate plutonium for nuclear warheads. Actually more than the USA given that Russia
is the only country on the planet with viable fast neutron breeder reactors but still retains many operation RBMK graphite
reactors explicitly designed for plutonium production. So all of the stockpiles of non-decommissioned nuclear warheads
the USA has can be overwhelmed by Russian new warheads with more advanced characteristics.
2) Nuclear weapons are, bar none, the greatest bang for the buck of all weapons systems. Russia can churn out Sarmat,
Yars, Topol and any other missiles in large numbers. The current small annual production reflects START constraints since
only about 700 missile delivery systems in total are allowed. Russia can build up thousands in a few years.
3) Russia does not have the absurd military prices that the USA has. They are easily 10 times lower in real terms. So
yanqui pinhead ubermenschen-wannabes should not judge Russian military potential based on the size of the nominal dollar
exchange rate budget. And most of the US military budget is not spent on nuclear weapons but on conventional weapons
and maintaining 800 bases around the world. Russia is not spending tens of billions of dollars on colonial racket enforcement.
It can dedicate its budget to nuclear weapons.
4) For some retarded reason the yanquis think that conventional war a la WWII is relevant today. They have deluded themselves
that WWIII with nukes will not happen because Russia is too afraid and because they believe in their mythological first strike
capability using "stealthy" B-2s. On both counts they are pathologically mistaken/deluded. B-2s will be blown up thousands
of kilometers before they reach Russian territory and the only ones afraid are the yanquis. All the trash talk and posturing
they do reflects deep seated insecurities.
5) Pulling out of START will guarantee that Russia continues developing asymmetric doom's day weapons such as Poseidon
and Burevestnik. Throwing a tantrum and making ridiculous demands to extend START is guaranteed own goal for the
yanquis.
Russian version. The gist is that the US is demanding concessions from Russia to extend the START accords in 2021 which Russia
will never concede to. The yanqui clowns really believe that Russia is too poor to engage in a nuclear arms race.
1) Russia has vast resources to generate plutonium for nuclear warheads. Actually more than the USA given that Russia
is the only country on the planet with viable fast neutron breeder reactors but still retains many operation RBMK graphite
reactors explicitly designed for plutonium production. So all of the stockpiles of non-decommissioned nuclear warheads
the USA has can be overwhelmed by Russian new warheads with more advanced characteristics.
2) Nuclear weapons are, bar none, the greatest bang for the buck of all weapons systems. Russia can churn out Sarmat,
Yars, Topol and any other missiles in large numbers. The current small annual production reflects START constraints since
only about 700 missile delivery systems in total are allowed. Russia can build up thousands in a few years.
3) Russia does not have the absurd military prices that the USA has. They are easily 10 times lower in real terms. So
yanqui pinhead ubermenschen-wannabes should not judge Russian military potential based on the size of the nominal dollar
exchange rate budget. And most of the US military budget is not spent on nuclear weapons but on conventional weapons
and maintaining 800 bases around the world. Russia is not spending tens of billions of dollars on colonial racket enforcement.
It can dedicate its budget to nuclear weapons.
4) For some retarded reason the yanquis think that conventional war a la WWII is relevant today. They have deluded themselves
that WWIII with nukes will not happen because Russia is too afraid and because they believe in their mythological first strike
capability using "stealthy" B-2s. On both counts they are pathologically mistaken/deluded. B-2s will be blown up thousands
of kilometers before they reach Russian territory and the only ones afraid are the yanquis. All the trash talk and posturing
they do reflects deep seated insecurities.
5) Pulling out of START will guarantee that Russia continues developing asymmetric doom's day weapons such as Poseidon
and Burevestnik. Throwing a tantrum and making ridiculous demands to extend START is guaranteed own goal for the
yanquis.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Yeah, article is right. Start is as good as dead and Russia will not rely on simple numbers game but do things strategically - build the necessary systems and it's numbers for the goal of striking back and making insurmountable destruction on said enemy.
Although I think YARS isn't really all that expensive and enough of them will make Americans shit bricks anyway. An Europe isn't too happy about this either
Although I think YARS isn't really all that expensive and enough of them will make Americans shit bricks anyway. An Europe isn't too happy about this either
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
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Well, looks like things are getting interesting.
As i said before, the West, the U.S in particular, doesn't have what it takes to fight a new Cold War, Russia is not the USSR and Russia has been slowly investing in their military for years now.
Cost wise, the U.S would be in Deep sh%t, granted i know that recently they have been upgrading a lot of their old equipment, which may save them some headaches, but when it comes to developing new systems which they will need in a ColdWar2.0, they will get completely screwed, costs will go off the charts.
And then there is the more fundamental problem of whether they will even be able to compete for long, given the terrible state of their educational institutes, especially of recent.
So i don't see Russia having any problems militarily, for that reason i believe the U.S will pursue/is pursuing a new policy of containment.
An Economic containment, we know that the dollar and the Global financial system is heavily controlled by the West, and given what we ave been seeing in recent years, from Iran to India and Venezuela(granted they mostly screwed themselves).
We see that Russia and especially the nations it does business with, are being heavily effected be the control the West have over global finance.
So it becomes extremely paramount that Russia develops a proper financial network that is immune to western influence.
It will also become necessary to be able to protect these other nations from U.S hard power.
So hopefully Russia builds up some semblance of a Navy.
Other than that, Russia is pretty much secured, unless some Cucu for Coco puffs regime change operation succeeds in Russia, and Navalny becomes supreme leader.
As i said before, the West, the U.S in particular, doesn't have what it takes to fight a new Cold War, Russia is not the USSR and Russia has been slowly investing in their military for years now.
Cost wise, the U.S would be in Deep sh%t, granted i know that recently they have been upgrading a lot of their old equipment, which may save them some headaches, but when it comes to developing new systems which they will need in a ColdWar2.0, they will get completely screwed, costs will go off the charts.
And then there is the more fundamental problem of whether they will even be able to compete for long, given the terrible state of their educational institutes, especially of recent.
So i don't see Russia having any problems militarily, for that reason i believe the U.S will pursue/is pursuing a new policy of containment.
An Economic containment, we know that the dollar and the Global financial system is heavily controlled by the West, and given what we ave been seeing in recent years, from Iran to India and Venezuela(granted they mostly screwed themselves).
We see that Russia and especially the nations it does business with, are being heavily effected be the control the West have over global finance.
So it becomes extremely paramount that Russia develops a proper financial network that is immune to western influence.
It will also become necessary to be able to protect these other nations from U.S hard power.
So hopefully Russia builds up some semblance of a Navy.
Other than that, Russia is pretty much secured, unless some Cucu for Coco puffs regime change operation succeeds in Russia, and Navalny becomes supreme leader.
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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An Arms race will cost America even more than it is spending now on its military, and will make fixes to existing problems even less likely.
When the belt tightens they are not going to be so generous with the bribes which means lots of countries are going to kick them out and stop cooperating with them which will reduce their influence and power considerably... their so called soft power.
One escape they already mentioned was to write off their debt to the victim country... in this case China, but the problems with that are enormous... China has invested in US debt in the hope that the US sorts out their problems and they get their money back with interest... but the US writing off their debt would effect all of Americas allies holding US debt... they might start demanding they get paid up front or try to get rid of American debt... and of course the Americans will buy back that debt with money they have printed... what will that do to the international value of the US dollar?
The other huge problem with the idea apart from undermining the value of selling US debt is that most US debt is held by US allies... so when they screw those countries over it will isolate the US even more than anything China or Russia could do...
Hilarious.
Russia is a third world country that is a gas station... the US is going to become a third world country with a bloated under achieving military... they are going to have to do what Russia did in the 1990s when they found themselves with a military of a super power with the budget that no super power military could survive on... those foreign bases will start closing soon...
When the belt tightens they are not going to be so generous with the bribes which means lots of countries are going to kick them out and stop cooperating with them which will reduce their influence and power considerably... their so called soft power.
One escape they already mentioned was to write off their debt to the victim country... in this case China, but the problems with that are enormous... China has invested in US debt in the hope that the US sorts out their problems and they get their money back with interest... but the US writing off their debt would effect all of Americas allies holding US debt... they might start demanding they get paid up front or try to get rid of American debt... and of course the Americans will buy back that debt with money they have printed... what will that do to the international value of the US dollar?
The other huge problem with the idea apart from undermining the value of selling US debt is that most US debt is held by US allies... so when they screw those countries over it will isolate the US even more than anything China or Russia could do...
Hilarious.
Russia is a third world country that is a gas station... the US is going to become a third world country with a bloated under achieving military... they are going to have to do what Russia did in the 1990s when they found themselves with a military of a super power with the budget that no super power military could survive on... those foreign bases will start closing soon...
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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It looks like START is about to see it's last sunset, but here's a friendly reminder from Sergey Shoigu:
Shoigu: the main advantage of the newest Russian systems is unattainable efficiency
All the promising weapons systems that the Supreme Commander spoke about in the Address to the Federal Assembly a year ago already exist in the gland, and some in operation, said Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Army General Sergei Shoigu.
“All this is an absolute reality. The most important advantage of the newest Russian systems is inaccessible efficiency. At the same time, our colleagues abroad realize that our developments are hundreds of times cheaper than any systems deployed against us. And not only the US defense,” the Minister of Defense said RF.
https://vpk.name/news/251250_shoigu_glavnoe_dostoinstvo_noveishih_rossiiskih_sistem__nedosyagaemaya_effektivnost.html
kvs- Posts : 15847
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Location : Turdope's Kanada
Yanqui own koolaid drinkers are too full of hubris and bile to listen.
When Custer was being taught a lesson by the Plains aboriginals one of the mutilations imposed on his corpse and that of his invading
soldiers was to stab the ears. This symbolized the yanqui imperialists not listening to reason and disregarding the treaties that they
signed and were bound by.
Russia will be the yanqui's last stand. There will be no glorious ethnic cleansing by western invaders of Russia just as there hasn't been
for the last 1000 years.
When Custer was being taught a lesson by the Plains aboriginals one of the mutilations imposed on his corpse and that of his invading
soldiers was to stab the ears. This symbolized the yanqui imperialists not listening to reason and disregarding the treaties that they
signed and were bound by.
Russia will be the yanqui's last stand. There will be no glorious ethnic cleansing by western invaders of Russia just as there hasn't been
for the last 1000 years.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Join date : 2016-11-06
The US wants a new cold war as they view that this will just force USA to become some kind of center of manufacturing and military development like in the previous cold war.
Ultimately, all depends on who can build more and how much cheaper each system is. Russia has much newer Nuclear systems, new delivery systems and already a working manufacturing of said newer weapon systems. How much does it cost Russia to build YARS ballistic missiles (which doesnt fly at a basic ballistic missile path but a quasi one making it much harder to intercept)? How much does it cost Russia to develop Avangard? Add to that, what about Russian air ballistic missiles?
Get my point? It would be easy for Russia to simply say "OK, we will build more nuclear weapons" Then build more mobile launch systems in middle of nowhere Siberia where they can just keep moving around and hard to be found by the US. Build more missile silo bases and have more Yars listed there as well. Keep Avangard for very specific targets, and replace all Topols with Yars. Maybe continue with the railway based ICBM system.
Then, start working towards building more advanced defense systems against ballistic missiles. Things like a new satellite detection and tracking system, and make sure Nudol is made and in enough numbers.
Then start working with other states in building them up. Throw WTO out of the window and start making sure all your basis are covered economically. Put Europe in the position that it is their fault for not pushing back at US so start retreating from all treaties with Europe and tell them they are not interested in their kangaroo courts.
Ultimately, all depends on who can build more and how much cheaper each system is. Russia has much newer Nuclear systems, new delivery systems and already a working manufacturing of said newer weapon systems. How much does it cost Russia to build YARS ballistic missiles (which doesnt fly at a basic ballistic missile path but a quasi one making it much harder to intercept)? How much does it cost Russia to develop Avangard? Add to that, what about Russian air ballistic missiles?
Get my point? It would be easy for Russia to simply say "OK, we will build more nuclear weapons" Then build more mobile launch systems in middle of nowhere Siberia where they can just keep moving around and hard to be found by the US. Build more missile silo bases and have more Yars listed there as well. Keep Avangard for very specific targets, and replace all Topols with Yars. Maybe continue with the railway based ICBM system.
Then, start working towards building more advanced defense systems against ballistic missiles. Things like a new satellite detection and tracking system, and make sure Nudol is made and in enough numbers.
Then start working with other states in building them up. Throw WTO out of the window and start making sure all your basis are covered economically. Put Europe in the position that it is their fault for not pushing back at US so start retreating from all treaties with Europe and tell them they are not interested in their kangaroo courts.
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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You are right... they certainly could do that but Russian money in better spent in other areas making Russian technology more attractive and desirable, while improving the quality of life for the Russian people.
Invest in energy but also invest in green technology too because both are necessary... oil and gas right now because we need energy now, and nuclear and solar and wind and wave technology because with development they become more viable and more useful and are clean.
Look at countries outside the west for relations and trade... bypass the west and the institutions it controls, or create alternatives for them that are open for anyone to use but not abuse...
And step up the biowarfare capabilities of Russia, because I wouldn't trust the west at all in that regard....
Invest in energy but also invest in green technology too because both are necessary... oil and gas right now because we need energy now, and nuclear and solar and wind and wave technology because with development they become more viable and more useful and are clean.
Look at countries outside the west for relations and trade... bypass the west and the institutions it controls, or create alternatives for them that are open for anyone to use but not abuse...
And step up the biowarfare capabilities of Russia, because I wouldn't trust the west at all in that regard....
owais.usmani- Posts : 1825
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Join date : 2019-03-27
Age : 38
Meanwhile the USA is just being...........USA
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-armscontrol-idUSKBN22X2LS
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-armscontrol-idUSKBN22X2LS
U.S. prepared to spend Russia, China 'into oblivion' to win nuclear arms race: U.S. envoy
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump’s arms control negotiator on Thursday said the United States is prepared to spend Russia and China “into oblivion” in order to win a new nuclear arms race.
“The president has made clear that we have a tried and true practice here. We know how to win these races and we know how to spend the adversary into oblivion. If we have to, we will, but we sure would like to avoid it,” Special Presidential Envoy Marshall Billingslea said in an online presentation to a Washington think tank.
AlfaT8- Posts : 2488
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owais.usmani wrote:Meanwhile the USA is just being...........USA
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-armscontrol-idUSKBN22X2LS
U.S. prepared to spend Russia, China 'into oblivion' to win nuclear arms race: U.S. envoy
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump’s arms control negotiator on Thursday said the United States is prepared to spend Russia and China “into oblivion” in order to win a new nuclear arms race.
“The president has made clear that we have a tried and true practice here. We know how to win these races and we know how to spend the adversary into oblivion. If we have to, we will, but we sure would like to avoid it,” Special Presidential Envoy Marshall Billingslea said in an online presentation to a Washington think tank.
Bhahahaha.... this is coming from their friggin arms control negotiator of all people.
"we have a tried and true practice", do it go ahead and do it, Do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?
All, the States is gonna do is make their money worthless and bankrupt themselves.
The MIC is gonna be swimming in Benjamins, "delays", "cost reevaluations" and "program restructuring" are gonna the order of the day.
Sujoy- Posts : 2415
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Location : India || भारत
- Post n°146
A piece by Anton Khlopkov and Asya Shavrova on how to extend New START in terms of procedure
Sujoy Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:42 am
A piece by Anton Khlopkov and Asya Shavrova on how to extend New START in terms of procedure
https://globalaffairs.ru/articles/pyat-shagov-na-puti-k-dsnv/
https://globalaffairs.ru/articles/pyat-shagov-na-puti-k-dsnv/
GarryB- Posts : 40515
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I wonder if it is a conscious effort by the US.... they know for them it is just a case of swapping notes to extend the agreement but for the Russians it needs to be ratified and passed... last time it took more time than there is left to make the changes because it needs to be made into law in Russia.
Who cares... personally I think Russia would be better off without it... let the US spend its play money on new weapons that make it less safe... perhaps having 10,000 warheads will actually restore MAD at a time when ABM systems are being built as we speak by both sides...
Who cares... personally I think Russia would be better off without it... let the US spend its play money on new weapons that make it less safe... perhaps having 10,000 warheads will actually restore MAD at a time when ABM systems are being built as we speak by both sides...
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Now Lavrov with the most damning indictment of them all, has said the death of START treaties are a foregone conclusion, but this was to be expected as Uncle Sham/Scam was insincere and was negotiating in bad faith.
“The fate of START-3 is a foregone conclusion”: Lavrov declared US refusal to renew the treaty
The fate of START-3 is a foregone conclusion; the United States decided not to renew it. This was stated by the head of the Russian Foreign Ministry Sergey Lavrov during the online session of Primakov Readings.
According to the Russian Foreign Minister, the United States decided not to extend the START-3 treaty, this follows from Washington’s statements against the backdrop of Russia's proposals to extend it. In addition, Lavrov emphasized, the United States put forward conditions for including the latest Russian weapons in the new treaty, which means "knocking on the open door."
Apparently, the decision to not renew this treaty (START-3) in the USA has already been made. The perseverance with which the non-alternative approach of transferring the entire conversation to the trilateral plane is emphasized, it says that this is already a foregone conclusion
- said Lavrov.
At the same time, the Russian Foreign Minister noted that Russia will ensure its security even without strategic offensive arms, in Moscow they are ready for any development of events if it is not renewed. Lavrov stressed that Russia does not need an extension of the treaty more than the United States needs.
We need an extension exactly as much as the Americans need it. They now see in our calls to extend it without preconditions some kind of game: Russia has modernized its entire nuclear arsenal, but this is just beginning here, they want to hinder us, they want to tie our hands. Absolutely not. We need to prolong the START-3 no more than the Americans need it
- He said, adding that if the United States categorically refuse to renew, "we will not persuade them."
https://topwar.ru/172971-sudba-snv-3-predreshena-lavrov-zajavil-ob-otkaze-ssha-prodlevat-dogovor.html
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kvs- Posts : 15847
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Note how this is not newsworthy in the west. You would think that the nuclear war problem has been dealt with forever. The
west has become an idiocracy.
west has become an idiocracy.
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kvs- Posts : 15847
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GarryB wrote:I wonder if it is a conscious effort by the US.... they know for them it is just a case of swapping notes to extend the agreement but for the Russians it needs to be ratified and passed... last time it took more time than there is left to make the changes because it needs to be made into law in Russia.
Who cares... personally I think Russia would be better off without it... let the US spend its play money on new weapons that make it less safe... perhaps having 10,000 warheads will actually restore MAD at a time when ABM systems are being built as we speak by both sides...
America never recognized the facts of the collapse of the USSR. They drank their own hubris nectar and believe that Reagan's star wars farce caused
the USSR to go bankrupt. That is utter delusional BS. No cost or economic factor was involved. The USSR nomenklatura became rotten and wanted to
be the new capitalist oligarchy. Soviet communism prevented them from becoming filthy rich. This rot is what caused the collapse of the USSR. No amount
of Reagan's fake laser tests could achieve such a result. A command economy cannot be bankrupted. Money means nothing in such an economy and only
the physical factors like workforce and resources matter. Soviet rubles were vouchers and not fiat money. That is actually was a good thing, but the
USSR failed because it did not introduce pluralism into the political realm. One party became one yoke. And this party betrayed the people in the worst
possible way.
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