Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

Garry I think PS-90A3M might be more than State of Art Engine they are planning for IL-96-400M 


In the IL-96-400M will be installed upgraded engines PS-90A3M  , I always though PS-90A was  a great engine well proven and quite good on fuel consumption

http://perm.rbc.ru/perm/freenews/58b95bea9a794707befa8af4
Цитата:

Perm "Aircraft Engine" will upgrade the PS-90A1 engines for wide-body long-haul aircraft IL-96-400M. This Perm RBC said the head of the enterprise Alexander Inozemtsev.

Passenger ship will be based on IL-96-400T cargo. Its production will Voronezh aircraft factory. Remodeled board must be powered by four turbofan engines PS-90A3M, maximum take-off mass must not be less than 270 tons and range with a payload of 41 tonnes - at least 9 thousand. Km. These characteristics allow the new car to become a cruise on a par with foreign "shirokofyuzelyazhnikami". Currently Permian aircraft designers are working on the feasibility study of this project.

"The President has set a task to make a batch of 6-10 aircraft and begin their operation in Russia. By the time when there will be PD-35, the aircraft is expected reentine a twin-engine variant. This happens in about 10-15 years ", - said the managing director-general designer of JSC" UEC-AVIADVIGATEL "A. Inozemtsev

Last autumn edition of "Vedomosti" reported that the KLA is planning to raise in the sky the first prototype passenger IL-96-400M in 2019. to modernize the program will cost about 53 billion rubles, of which a little less than 10 billion will be spent on development work. In addition, it was reported that the aircraft will be used for government agencies, first of all, for the "Russian" special flight detachment.

Austin wrote:CR929 will be built in China , Although Russia would still make many of its key component along with China but it will assembled in China and considering the proportion of Western component like Engine , Avionic etc  in future Russia might and I think will face sanctions on Aviation systems in Civil market.

Russifying CR929 will take some time like atleast a decade.

IL-96M twin engine is a elegant and low cost solution , with low maintenance , better fuel effeciency due to PD-35 engine and likely even extensive use of composite , It can serve for long distance bus carrier for Domestic travel also keeps Wide Body Manufacturing in Russia unlike CR929.

There was an intereesting Youtube video discussing the CR929 and the Il-96 and how they are different projects in numerous ways. The video is around a hour long. Its in Russian, but the subtitles are reasonable for non Russian speakers. Wikipedia also has links analysing the CR929 and each party's contribution.

Anyway, it seems Russia is doing design for the CR929. China does final assembly. Russia is doing the wings and various parts. China concentrates on the fuselage. Various options are considered for the engines. Apparently its a joint venture not a technology transfer by Russia. Upto 20 000 planes could be produced over the product's lifespan as I remember. Putin incidentally reckoned that most civillian plane construction is mostly commercial and not tech transfer sensitive. This left me wondering what exactly was happening.

Moving on, the video differentiated the Il-96 and CR929. They had different sizes and most importantly, different ranges. So both projects would remain separate. Ofcourse, Russia would want an Il-96 separate for military reasons too.

So the general theme, as I understand, was that Russia would develop parts for the CR929. China and Russia would have separate tech(separate components). And Europe would actually be providing tech for stuff like new composite materials. The CR929 would be put togetehr in China.

In the meantime Il-96 would evolve. Probably using CR929's Russian wings and Russian parts and a Russian composite fuselage to replace the Chinese one of the CR929. Different partly because it would have a different capacity and range. Much like the Boeing 777 and 787 I suppose.

Finally, I read an interesting interivew from the head of UAC. He reckoned that we are in the last generation of tubular airliners and the next gen in around 20 years or so would be flying wing.

PS I'll put up links to the articles if I find them.

Garry I think PS-90A3M might be more than State of Art Engine they are planning for IL-96-400M

The original PS-90A still had a lot of US components and was not really a Russian engine.

I had heard about upgraded versions, but thought they were more focussed on removing foreign components than improving performance... I am happy to be wrong in this case... but had heard they were talking about the PD-35 as the big powerful engine for large heavy aircraft (ie An-124 replacement engines and Il-96 replacement engines (2 for the original 4)).

Very confusing.

GarryB wrote:

Garry I think PS-90A3M might be more than State of Art Engine they are planning for IL-96-400M

The original PS-90A still had a lot of US components and was not really a Russian engine.

I had heard about upgraded versions, but thought they were more focussed on removing foreign components than improving performance... I am happy to be wrong in this case... but had heard they were talking about the PD-35 as the big powerful engine for large heavy aircraft (ie An-124 replacement engines and Il-96 replacement engines (2 for the original 4)).

Very confusing.

I thought the original version had no problem with US conponent. It was the modernised (and with improved performance compared to the original version) PS-90A2 for the Tu-204SM that had the american designed part. Maybe the PS-90A3 was the russianised version without american component of the PS-90A2, and the PS-90A3M is an ulterior improvement.

GarryB wrote:

Garry I think PS-90A3M might be more than State of Art Engine they are planning for IL-96-400M

The original PS-90A still had a lot of US components and was not really a Russian engine.

I had heard about upgraded versions, but thought they were more focussed on removing foreign components than improving performance... I am happy to be wrong in this case... but had heard they were talking about the PD-35 as the big powerful engine for large heavy aircraft (ie An-124 replacement engines and Il-96 replacement engines (2 for the original 4)).

Very confusing.

The PS-90A/A1 didnt had any US component , Only the PS-90A2 had US IP's not component which subsequently Russia purchased it from them

PS-90A3M must be best of PS-90 series need to wait and see

The fundamental flaw in the PS-90A that I remember was its cost... at the time it was costing about 6 million dollars per engine, compared with an upgraded variant of the D-30 standard engine with minor fuel efficiency improvements at $800K.

The PS had more thrust... something like 2 tons of extra thrust per engine and better fuel economy but the cost of replacing all four engines on an Il-76 was a choice between a small reduction in fuel costs and 3.2 million dollars for the older engine or a bigger reduction in fuel costs but $24 million dollars... just over 20 million dollars buys you a few years worth of fuel, so it was clear most commercial users and the Russian military were not quick to adopt the new engines...

There was a similar problem with the MiG-29SMT... it was multirole and capable of a whole lot of new capabilities, but the Russian military just wanted it as a short range interceptor/dogfighter, for which its existing radar and missiles were perfectly fine. The extra range and ability to carry expensive new air to ground weapons was not considered important, though it was supposed to be 40% cheaper to maintain, the extra cost of upgrading them wasn't considered worth the money... until some Algerian models became available...

[size=150]Pictures of MS-21-300 taken during first Roll Out and Flight 
[/size] via fotografersh

“Digital” is not magic: the SSJ100 has become an aircraft designed entirely using paperless technology.
https://uacrussia.livejournal.com/78640.html#cutid1



Non-average: a new Russian transport is created on the basis of the latest technologies
https://uacrussia.livejournal.com/80664.html


Propulsion: for half a century, civil aircraft have been equipped with several types of LSG
https://uacrussia.livejournal.com/80982.html

Tons of New Good Interview 


Yuri Slusar: we need to ensure the competitiveness of the CR929
https://aviation21.ru/yurij-slyusar-nam-neobxodimo-obespechit-konkurentosposobnost-cr929/


Yury Slyusar told about certification tests, prospects and cost of MS-21
https://aviation21.ru/yurij-slyusar-rasskazal-o-sertifikacionnyx-ispytaniyax-perspektivax-i-stoimosti-ms-21/


Alexander Rubtsov: GSS expects to sell up to 40 SSJ100 aircraft in the Middle East
https://aviation21.ru/gss-rasschityvaet-prodat-na-blizhnem-vostoke-do-40-samolyotov-ssj100/


CR929 Chief Designer Maxim Litvinov - on aircraft design
https://aviation21.ru/glavnyj-konstruktor-cr929-maksim-litvinov-o-proektirovanii-samolyota/


Mikhail Gordin: Russia is actively working on the creation of a hybrid aircraft engine
https://aviation21.ru/mixail-gordin-v-rossii-idyot-aktivnaya-rabota-nad-sozdaniem-gibridnogo-aviadvigatelya/

One flag is not enough!

In this interview the chief designer of PD-14 says its 20 % more fuel effecient than Sa146 engine of superjet 

http://www.pmz.ru/upload/pages/7234/Str_10-14_22A_ENGLISH_gorizont.pdf

Austin wrote:In this interview the chief designer of PD-14 says its 20 % more fuel effecient than Sa146 engine of superjet 

http://www.pmz.ru/upload/pages/7234/Str_10-14_22A_ENGLISH_gorizont.pdf

Interesting interview, but from 2010.
Definitely the issue about bearing producers and oder small but fundamental components from the west had to be resolved.

Does anybody know if the lack.of involvement of Zaporozhe (Ivchenko-Progress/Motor-Sich) in the project created problems for the development of the power gearbox for PD-18R?

Btw, is it true that several hundreds (or more) ucrainians engineers and technicians from Motor Sich are now working in China helping them develop a modern high thrust engine?

Now US is trying to sabotage MS-21 project and Japan is in hand with them 

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3850113?from=main_1 

It is just a matter of time US will ban P&W engines too , better to get MS-21 certified with LEAP engine

Article is funny cause they say such composites doesn't exist in Russia which is factually false since such composites are used in existing platforms and made for ships and smaller planes. Hence why Rosatom is to be involved since their composite division is used heavily.

Your use of foreign based Russian media is sad, but I'll dive in. Russia shouldn't have used any foreign components at all. Zero. They should know better. I'm happy if MS-21 fails because of lack of oversight in using Western parts. To be honest, Russian companies need to learn a good lesson about cooperation with shitty countries.

miketheterrible wrote:Article is funny cause they say such composites doesn't exist in Russia which is factually false since such composites are used in existing platforms and made for ships and smaller planes.  Hence why Rosatom is to be involved since their composite division is used heavily.

Your use of foreign based Russian media is sad, but I'll dive in. Russia shouldn't have used any foreign components at all. Zero.  They should know better. I'm happy if MS-21 fails because of lack of oversight in using Western parts.  To be honest, Russian companies need to learn a good lesson about cooperation with shitty countries.

...In some what related, but not related news, both Japan and the US say they won't deploy military bases in the Kuriles...seeing this article, reminds me how the dangling carrot hanged in front of Gorbychov's face (no Eastern expansion of HATO). If the Floppyknees and the Pidostanis are coordinating economic warfare, you could bet sweet Jesus they will deploy in the Kuriles.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Article is funny cause they say such composites doesn't exist in Russia which is factually false since such composites are used in existing platforms and made for ships and smaller planes.  Hence why Rosatom is to be involved since their composite division is used heavily.

Your use of foreign based Russian media is sad, but I'll dive in. Russia shouldn't have used any foreign components at all. Zero.  They should know better. I'm happy if MS-21 fails because of lack of oversight in using Western parts.  To be honest, Russian companies need to learn a good lesson about cooperation with shitty countries.

...In some what related, but not related news, both Japan and the US say they won't deploy military bases in the Kuriles...seeing this article, reminds me how the dangling carrot hanged in front of Gorbychov's face (no Eastern expansion of HATO). If the Floppyknees and the Pidostanis are coordinating economic warfare, you could bet sweet Jesus they will deploy in the Kuriles.

Which is even more ridiculous since Russia never stated ever giving two islands to Japan. Only reason why media is going up in flames over it is because Japan won't STFU about it over the 1956 comment on Russia's end (which stipulated transfer of two islands to Japan for peace treaty. BUT said agreement froze in 1960 when Japan signed over the agreement to deploy US forces on Japan.

The threat is of course if US does or doesn't deploy to the islands (which we know they would) but that Japan sold it's soverignty in 1960. So what Russia is doing is making it clear that because of 1960 deal, no deal can happen. Recent negotiations is to try and get Japan to push US out of Japan rather than hand anything over to Japan.  Japan doesn't seem to get what the Russians are demanding at all. This much is obvious as Putin already answered the question, so did Peskov. No transfer of islands has been stated.

Russia has little to no gain from cooperation with Japan. Japan is also broke. And all their tech can be had from China, for cheaper. Only thing they produce now besides radioactive fish, is hentai.

Certainly all Russian component/technology platforms should clearly be the goal... and would be a great way to promote new civil platforms to the Russian military.

Significant military purchases are a good way of guaranteeing the future of a new jet aircraft... and in terms of exports there are a few niche markets that could do with serious competition... like the C-17 weight class, but even more so the C-130 market combined with the An-12 market is enormous and right now the only real competition is upgraded C-130s.

A new Il-276 with jet speed and performance, could be sold as a package deal with Il-476 transports to cover 20-30 tons and 50-60 ton payload class categories with a potential future with better engines offering even heavier weight loads from good air strips or much lighter loads from strips so rough someone from Boeing or Airbus would call it a dirt road rather than an airstrip.

With all Russian components the Russians would totally control the design and sales and the future of the aircraft... a customer can have alternative bits added if they want to.

You can hardly blame the western companies... they just want to sell products... it is the current western governments that are the problem.

I would say heavy western sanctions that block all western components from Russian civil aircraft is exactly the sort of kick up the arse Russia needs to realise it doesn't actually need the west... it has the talent and the capability and the resources to do it all on its own... and when it realises that while the rest of the world outside the west is not the richest... the richest people often get rich and stay rich by being tight bastards who use their wealth to pay as little as they have to for everything.

I think Russia would be better off looking to Africa and Asia and central and south America for trading partners because partnerships are two way and beneficial to both parties... the west is clearly not interested in such arrangements with Russia or China...

The US and Japan are on the descent... no point hitching your trailer to a ship that is going under... they are powerful countries and they will likely survive, but who knows the sort of turmoil they will have to go through till they find their way.

Sanders seemed like the right guy, but the way he turned and sucked up to Hilary after she blatantly cheated for the democratic nomination, either the guy has no spine or they threatened him and his family. Pretty clear it was Sanders supporters that leaked the dirt on Hilary during the last election... or you could believe the Clintons and think the Russians not only hacked the DNC... without leaving a single shred of evidence that they hacked the place, but they also changed the info to make hilary look bad/incompetent/criminal...

I remember when she came here to New Zealand and met with Sir Edmond Hilary... she said her mother was a great fan and she was named after Ed... lying bitch.... take 5 minutes and use Wiki and look up the date he climbed Mt Everest and her Birthday... her mother was clearly a witch... no surprise there...

..the C-130 market combined with the An-12 market is enormous and right now the only real competition is upgraded C-130s.

No, there r also KC-390, Y-8/9,  & An-178:
In 2006, Embraer began studies on a military tactical transport design of a similar size to the Lockheed C-130 Hercules. In April 2007, Embraer reported it was studying a medium-size airlifter, with the company designation "C-390". The transport aircraft is to incorporate many of the technological solutions from the Embraer E-Jets series and feature a rear ramp for loading and unloading a wide range of cargo. The unit price was estimated to be around US$50 million in 2007, while similar models, such as the C-130J cost up to $62 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_KC-390#Origins
The KC-390 was one of three contenders for a new fixed-wing search and rescue (FWSAR) aircraft for the Royal Canadian Air Force to replace aging CC-115 Buffalo and CC-130 Hercules. ..
In November 2016, Embraer responded to a Request For Information (RFI) for replacing the Royal New Zealand Air Force's five C-130 Hercules by offering five KC-. Embraer CEO Jackson Schneider stated the company was in advanced talks on offering the KC-390 to New Zealand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_KC-390#Orders_and_potential_customer_evaluations

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-06-20/chinese-transport-goes-sale

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/23417/China_Delivers_Y_8_Military_Transport_Aircraft_to_Kazakhstan

https://informburo.kz/stati/kak-lyotchiki-nacionalnoy-gvardii-osvaivayut-kitayskiy-voenno-transportnyy-samolyot-y8f-fotoreportazh.html


https://www.azernews.az/business/135692.html


Russia currently has a stock of composite materials to build six more planes, and proposals to get around the problem are being actively discussed, one of Kommersant's sources added.
https://sputniknews.com/business/201901101071368647-mc-21-composite-materials-sanctions/

PapaDragon wrote:
If they really have based that entire project on imported composites then whole thing definitely deserves to crash and burn

From all available date it appears that they have

Good riddance losers, enjoy riding on that new Chinese clunker

The Kudrin/Medvedev/Syderkov/Gaidar faction is a gift that keeps on giving, their plan to integrate with the West has completely blown to smithereens!

What a mess, from the onset of the program they said the MS 21 would be a 100% Russian project, then suddenly we'll learn that critical components are actually supplied by Nato its a shame though since a lot of effort and work has already been invested on this plane, and now the timeframe for launch with Russian made composites is pushed potentially up to 2025 i guess Russia needs more pain and humiliation before finally getting the idea that they cannot depend on the west with ANYTHING.

PapaDragon wrote:If they really have based that entire project on imported composites then whole thing definitely deserves to crash and burn..
Good riddance losers, enjoy riding on that new Chinese clunker (if you are lucky)

They may redo the wings with metal if need be, as per article; it may take them longer, but it'll come out all right.
They have 420 Yak-40s that could be re-engined & be good substitutes: http://bidread.com/articles/blagodarya-chemu-420(!)-samoletov-yak-40-snova-smogut-letat-5c32e1a8a2fde444ca50b2bd

http://www.ato.ru/content/sibnia-ispytal-v-polete-yak-40-s-kompozitnym-krylom

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/insight-yak-40-switches-western-engines/

Those engines may not be under sanctions. I flew on it once.

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russia-severstal-takes-delivery-first-superjet-100/

Hopefully now they will learn not to trust the west, and just get on with making planes themselves.

They have enormous potential in composite technology and should be making these structures themselves.

The new An-2 upgrade is almost all composites and they have been using composite materials on their ships for a while now too.

I am guessing the composites on their new fighter aircraft are Russian made... Su-57, Su-35, MiG-35 etc etc...

looking at the article:

US sanctions against Aerocomposit and ORPE Technologiya, a pair of companies engaged in the development of the MC-21, have cut off access to US and Japanese components necessary for the production of the plane's revolutionary composite wing design, Russia's Kommersant business newspaper has reported, citing industry sources.

So they can now sue those companies for not supplying the components necessary, and then make their own replacements or source them from elsewhere... and hopefully if they develop them for themselves they can also sell them internationally at a slightly cheaper price than the US and Japanese equivalents...

It is time Russia decided that US copyright does not apply to Russia or Russian companies operating in Russia or anywhere else.

I would say fund domestic replacement, and in the mean time use a metal structure to get production under way with future performance improvements with new engines and composite materials.

I would like to hear more information from a source other than Kommersant because they seem to think there is no capacity to make composite materials in Russia, while the officials quoted don't seem to be very worried...

Furthermore, Rostec, ORPE Technologiya's holding company, called the problem "far-fetched", adding that the Russian aviation industry faces no shortage of composite materials, sanctions notwithstanding.

A nice picture of MS-21