Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...
Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.
GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...
Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...
Even a Smerch battery should have flattened the area in question for rather less than these Israeli weapons probably cost them... and with no risk to aircraft.
jhelb wrote:GarryB wrote:Personally I think if the Indians had the coordinates of the target area they should have bought Tochka-U or Iskander missiles and attacked the place without needing all these aircraft...
They already have their version of Iskander called Prithvi which is a tactical surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile. They could have also used Brahmos cruise missile.
But my basic point is, this is just a fake news that the Indian government decided to spread. They went inside Pakistani airspace but did NOT target anything.
They next day (27thFeb) Indian Government said Pakistani Air Force send in F-16, JF-17 and Mirage 3 that targeted Indian military installation inside Indian territory. Where are the pieces of those munitions that were dropped by F-16, JF-17 ? If India can show pieces of AMRAAM then surely they should have pieces of munition dropped by Pakistani jets.
medo wrote:Pakistan show pieces of bombs and craters they made in the forest. If India didn't target it, than they could simply say, this was a warning strike near target and everything would be OK.
miketheterrible wrote:Both sides are major liars.
India screwed up and did a shit job in their strike. Those Israeli bombs suck and all those Israeli gadgets are garbage.
Pakistan did lose an F-16 or a jet of some sort. One of their men are dead and they are covering it up.
India drops Israeli missile for Arjun Tank
Compare Refleks, which is a laser beam-riding missile that's nearly impossible to beat with PPS/DIRCM's and was the base design for the most capable man portable ATGM in the world (Kornet), while Lahat has a front facing seeker than can be easily defeated/dazzled with Passive Counter Measures....but most of all doesn't work as advertised:
Isos wrote:I think the newly build M are not the same as the first M version from the 90s.
It shares a lot of new stuff from the KR and 35 versions which is not the same as the very first K version from the 80s.
Radar is not the only critical thing in an aircraft. A very good RWR is more important.
Egypt also ordered kh31 and kh38 for its mig-29. They also have ordered targeting pods so they will get some guided bombs too.
xeno likes this post
Gomig-21 likes this post
miketheterrible wrote:R-77 has range of max 80km while Pakistan uses Aim-120C-5 which is 105km.
R-77-1 at about 110km. This is used by Russia but India never purchased it. Instead they use R-27 extended variants which have pretty good range
GarryB wrote:Not sure, but would say I agree with you about the MiG-35... the MiG-29M2 and MiG-35 share the same airframe but little else as most systems and parts are improved on the 35. If it doesn't have the final AESA radar yet it is still a 35 and not a 29M2.
The PESA radar on the MiG-29M2 is a good radar... there is no point rushing an AESA that is not ready yet in to service because it will be rather expensive and a mature PESA is better than an immature AESA and much much cheaper.
When the AESAs are ready it would not take long to swap them over.
the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying.
GarryB, ahmedfire and Gomig-21 like this post
My real question is how effective really is the R-77 that the EAF bought (which was why I was asking which model do we know that they actually did buy) I know it must be one of the export models but there's so many and a bit confusing.
I'm guessing the R-77 the EAF bought is the same as the Indian one with the 80km range which is really not enough. They should've bought the R-27 if the R-77-1 is not available for export.
Yeah I'm not too worried about the AESA TBH, Gary. Even though you get more range and it's supposed to be much harder to jam since it basically works by chirping, changing frequency every time it sends out a signal which is practically impossible to jam, as of now anyway!
Between its range and ability against jamming, those certainly aren't minor or negligible upgrades and make a huge difference, but there are other techniques to work around that provided the weapons in the missiles have compatible ranges to the enemy's.
The MiG-35 also has an advantage in that it has a IRST even though range for that is limited to 30 km at the most, it still allows the MiG to shut down its radar and use its IRST which hampers the enemy's ability to detect it.
The other item I see lacking in the EAF MiG-35 -- besides the ones you and I have mentioned so far -- is the OLS-K. The OLS-K seems to be missing from the bottom of the aircraft as I don't see any glass bubble on the protrusion that belongs to that item.
If the R-37M is capable of being fired from a MiG-35 using the Zhuk-ME, then the range is sufficient for that radar to use longer range missiles than the 80km R-77.
ahmedfire and Gomig-21 like this post
Gomig-21 wrote:There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying. If there is any truth to that, that is quite worrisome since we're led to believe that the R-77 has better range than the AIM-120C. I wonder why that happened to the Indians and their R-77 because that kinda worries me a little bit with the ones the EAF have if they're not as capable in range as the AIM-120C? Anyone care to indulge in this topic?
dino00 likes this post
Mindstorm wrote:Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.
The word that you are looking for is INCOMPETENT. Those Indian Air Force pilots were incompetent. They were flying Su-30MKI, Mig-21BIS, Mirage-2000 well within their own air space and yet none of those pilots could fire a single missile towards the incoming Pakistani F-16s and JF-17s.Mindstorm wrote:Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.
Big_Gazza dislikes this post
Modern medium range air to air missiles ,taking into account the same engagement condictions of delivery, reach in the most advanced mass produced specimens available worldwide not more than 100-110 km. -Meteor, РВВ-СД, AIM-120D-
I remember that someone some years ago was very surprised by the declarations of Борис Обносов, general director of ТРВ, that talking of the new ,at the time, export available РВВ-СД said that its range was approximately 10% higher than the best foreign counterpart, the reason is that in professional environment anyone know that range of AIM-120D and Meteor, in the conditions previously described, is around 100 km.
Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.
GarryB wrote:First of all the Su-30MKI wasn't compatible with the newer R-77-1 or its export name RVV-SD. They had to buy the RVV-AE instead which is a much older inferior missile in most respects.
The MiG-35s Egypt has... with or without AESA radar is fully compatible with all the newer Russian missiles so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't buy them.
There is also the issue with what happened with the Indian/Pakistani tussle on Feb-27th that resulted in a PAF F-16 shooting down an Indian MiG-21 Bison with an AIM-120C and the Indian Su-30KI which were at roughly the same distance couldn't lock onto the Pakistani F-16 because their radar signals kept telling them the range was beyond that of the R-77 they were carrying.
It rather sounds like on the Indian side every fighter type is essentially on their own with regard to information and data sharing which is a much more important problem to fix than how far their missiles will travel to hit targets.
The fact that the Egyptians are buying jammers tells me they have a better understanding of what a force multiplier is and why they are useful... even if they are not cheap.
In the brief air to air clash between IAF and PAF we must take into account that ,in that particular peace-time posture instance (IAF had not uttered any war time order for its Air Force also to deny important informations on its deployment times and protocols to Pakistan military analists), locally the numerical concentration of PAF fighters was significantly higher than IAF fighters scrambled in the area.
In particular two IAF SU-30MKI find themseves in the same air sectors of around 10-12 PAF fighters aircraft, in those instances of overwhelming numerical superiority, you cannot capitalise the range of your air to air missiles because the enemy aircraft can spread freely theirs formation attempting to engage you from outside the field of view of your radar and anytime one of them is stably acquired by your radar, allowing an RVV-AE to be released, those particular aircraft simply turn away from you, (an AA missile against a receding target has less than 1/3 of the range previously named).
Those two Su-30MKIs and theris pilots actually in that instance managed to do a very good and proficient action, luring those PAF fighters in wasting several AIM-120 missiles that them twarted and outmanoeuvered in the wasteful attempt to bring them down preventing them to complete theirs OCA mission; the performance was actually impressive for professionality and cold-blood.
The word that you are looking for is INCOMPETENT. Those Indian Air Force pilots were incompetent. They were flying Su-30MKI, Mig-21BIS, Mirage-2000 well within their own air space and yet none of those pilots could fire a single missile towards the incoming Pakistani F-16s and JF-17s.
In all likelihood IAF pilots could not even establish a missile lock even from 50Kms away. And even if they did PAF pilots were able to break their missile lock through a combination of hard maneuvring, electronic warfare and the use of live countermeasures.
dino00 and magnumcromagnon like this post
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) entered Indian air space in order to fire those BVR air to air missiles. Once they realized they missed they chose not to engage any Indian fighter jet and instead retured back to Pakistan.Isos wrote:
Not really. PAF fired first, indians went defensive. If the fight would have been continued, PAF fighter would launched more missiles keeping indians in defensive position (loosing speed and altitude by manoeuvring hard) leading the PAF fighters in better position to use IR missiles or use guns. That doesn't mean they would have won, it only means they oblige the indians to go in a bad position compare to them.
Isos wrote:That's true but if AIM-120D has 140km max range and r-77 only 80km it means that the "war time" firig range will be bigger for the AIM120. That means the US jet will fire first even if it's not at max theorical range.
Isos wrote:
Not really. PAF fired first, indians went defensive. If the fight would have been continued, PAF fighter would launched more missiles keeping indians in defensive position
dino00 likes this post
IF....IF....... AIM-120D would have 140 km of range (at the same conditions i have described and representing those portrayed for similar medium range AA missiles) , in reality it has around 100 km of range at those conditions.
Returning to the clash between IAF's Su-30MKI and PAF's F-16s and JF-17 fighters the element that was really important , like in 90% of military engagements in the reality, was not the A-pole range of respective medium range AA missiles - RVV-AE in this parameter enjoyed even a slight advantage over PAF's counterparts - but force concentration of fighter aircraft in that sector.
Sujoy wrote:Pakistan Air Force (PAF) entered Indian air space in order to fire those BVR air to air missiles. Once they realized they missed they chose not to engage any Indian fighter jet and instead retured back to Pakistan.
Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s airborne early warning and control system (AWAC) failed to detect them. Consequently, Pakistani fighters were taken aback by the sudden appearance of these Mig 21s.
The Indian Mig 21 was shot down by AIM-120 BVR missiles from within visual range (WVR). Similarly, Pakistani F-16 was also shot down by the Mig 21 from WVR.
Mindstorm wrote:Those SU-30MKI was outnumbered by a ratio of about 1:6......and as explained in those condition the enemy ,unless terribly incopetent, will simply not allow you to attack, you can be armed with any missile the result will not change significantly.
Isos wrote:What are smocking ? RVV AE range sucks compared to AMRAAM. Even the chinese missiles on the jf-17 are better.
The MKI could do nothing. Totally outnumbered. They just looked from far away on radar what was going on and couldn't even launch a missile. There is no success in that. Pakistani air force acomplished its mission.
Home
Latest images
Register
Log in
