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61 posters
Pantsir missile/gun AD system: #2
Isos- Posts : 11592
Points : 11560
Join date : 2015-11-06
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GarryB- Posts : 40487
Points : 40987
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Yep, that is the other booster from the 1990s sounding rocket series.
There were three sizes and those two were the two bigger ones.
You could use one or two stacked together with the sounding rocket on top to reach altitudes from the minimum to near space depending on which combination you used...
There were three sizes and those two were the two bigger ones.
You could use one or two stacked together with the sounding rocket on top to reach altitudes from the minimum to near space depending on which combination you used...
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Pantsir missiles are based off a sounding rocket?
GarryB- Posts : 40487
Points : 40987
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
No.
The booster solid rocket engines they use are standardised and also used by sounding rockets.
I have no idea which came first but those booster rockets look identical to two of three solid rocket boosters offered with sounding rocket sets in the 1990s for foreign use.
The sounding rocket instrument pack sat on top like a Pantsir rocket, and you could pick one of the three different solid rocket boosters to achieve different levels of performance and with the smaller booster you could use another bigger booster in tandem, so the smaller booster on top of one of these two boosters with your sounding rocket instrument package on top.
I suspect the sounding rocket set came first but have no idea when they were developed.
The SA-19 of the Tunguska uses the smaller or middle rocket from memory and was in operational service in the mid 1980s... I remember the first ones deployed to East Germany only had four ready to fire missiles and the system was called 2S6 (the 2S6M added four more missiles to carry eight).
The booster solid rocket engines they use are standardised and also used by sounding rockets.
I have no idea which came first but those booster rockets look identical to two of three solid rocket boosters offered with sounding rocket sets in the 1990s for foreign use.
The sounding rocket instrument pack sat on top like a Pantsir rocket, and you could pick one of the three different solid rocket boosters to achieve different levels of performance and with the smaller booster you could use another bigger booster in tandem, so the smaller booster on top of one of these two boosters with your sounding rocket instrument package on top.
I suspect the sounding rocket set came first but have no idea when they were developed.
The SA-19 of the Tunguska uses the smaller or middle rocket from memory and was in operational service in the mid 1980s... I remember the first ones deployed to East Germany only had four ready to fire missiles and the system was called 2S6 (the 2S6M added four more missiles to carry eight).
Isos- Posts : 11592
Points : 11560
Join date : 2015-11-06
The left one is the 40km new missile. The photo was taken at army 2019 according to the guy who posted it on twitter.
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
Points : 3057
Join date : 2011-08-08
Location : Terra Australis
Pantsir shot down an L-39 or MiG-23 (conflicting reports) in Libya....apparently this is the first shoot down of an manned aircraft by the Pantsir
report is from July 5
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/5113112.html
report is from July 5
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/5113112.html
ult- Posts : 837
Points : 877
Join date : 2015-02-20
Cyberspec wrote:Pantsir shot down an L-39 or MiG-23 (conflicting reports) in Libya....apparently this is the first shoot down of an manned aircraft by the Pantsir
report is from July 5
https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/5113112.html
No it is not...
- Spoiler:
- donbass
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
Actually, first one I believe was shot down by Syria of a Turkish F-4 Phantom.
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
Points : 3057
Join date : 2011-08-08
Location : Terra Australis
Yeah but the 2 incidents you've mentioned haven't been confirmed as Pantsir kills
George1- Posts : 18505
Points : 19008
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
Russia’s first Pantsyr-S air defense missile battalion assumes combat duty in Arctic
Russia and UAE to discuss upgrade of Pantsyr-S antiaircraft missile/gun systems
MOSCOW, July 29. /TASS/. The first battalion of Pantsyr-S surface-to-air missile/gun systems has assumed combat duty in Russia’s Northern Fleet, the Fleet’s press office issued a statement on Monday.
"The first battalion in the Northern Fleet’s Kola air defense formation armed with Pantsyr-S surface-to-air missile/gun systems has assumed experimental combat duty to protect the airspace over the Fleet’s main base," the statement reads.
Considering the rugged terrain on the Kola Peninsula where the Northern Fleet’s main forces are based, the Pantsyr-S is the most effective system to provide for the air defense of military facilities and reliably strike hostile targets, including small-size air objects, the press office said.
Pantsyr-S systems arrived with the Northern Fleet in late 2018. Over the course of several months, the battalion’s personnel underwent re-training to learn to operate the new systems and successfully test-fired them at the Ashuluk practice range in the Astrakhan Region in south Russia.
Most operators of Pantsyr-S surface-to-air missile/gun system that have assumed experimental combat duty have the practical experience of its combat use as gained during their missions in Syria.
The experimental combat duty of Pantsyr-S systems intended to defend the airspace over the Northern Fleet’s main base will help reliably protect military facilities at close ranges, the statement adds.
The Pantsyr-S is a small-range weapon designated to strike air targets with automatic anti-aircraft guns and missiles with radio-command guidance and infrared and radar tracking. As its specific feature, the weapon combines the multi-channel target acquisition and tracking system and the missile/artillery armament designed to strike targets at an altitude of up to 15 km and within a range of 20 km.
https://tass.com/defense/1070864
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Isos- Posts : 11592
Points : 11560
Join date : 2015-11-06
And then they wonder why they have problem with it. Maybe it's time to improve the tests.
Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
13m
Pantsir-S air defense systems repelled slow, low-flying targets simulated by An-2 planes flying below 50 meters and less than 200 km/h. 50/
Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
13m
Pantsir-S air defense systems repelled slow, low-flying targets simulated by An-2 planes flying below 50 meters and less than 200 km/h. 50/
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GarryB- Posts : 40487
Points : 40987
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Actually slow low flying targets are not easier to hit than low flying faster targets.
I remember during testing of the original model Igla MANPADS they used ATGMs as targets. Very small and moving at only 120m/s only about 5 out of 9 missiles fired got hits... with no proximity fuses a near miss is a miss because they need to actually hit the target for the warhead to explode and very small targets are tricky in that sense.
The Igla-S got a proximity fuse to allow it to engage small targets effectively and Verba also had a proximity fuse too for the same reasons.
I remember during testing of the original model Igla MANPADS they used ATGMs as targets. Very small and moving at only 120m/s only about 5 out of 9 missiles fired got hits... with no proximity fuses a near miss is a miss because they need to actually hit the target for the warhead to explode and very small targets are tricky in that sense.
The Igla-S got a proximity fuse to allow it to engage small targets effectively and Verba also had a proximity fuse too for the same reasons.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
It's now finally came full circle, with the final nail in the coffin of anti-Pantsir demonization. Uzi Rubin, former head of the Israeli Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense (ABM) Organization, and the developer Arrow-3, has now recommended Pantsir-S1 to remedy the failings of Pac-2, VL-MICA and the other SAMS in Saudi hands:
In his opinion, the main problem of Saudi Arabia was the difficulty in detecting low-flying missiles and drones over a large territory. According to Rubin, the Russian Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile-cannon complex (ZRPK) is suitable for the destruction of such targets. - Uzi Rubin
https://vpk.name/news/330132_izrail_obyasnil_proval_mim104_patriot_i_porekomendoval_pancirs1.html?new#new
Viktor- Posts : 5796
Points : 6429
Join date : 2009-08-25
Age : 44
Location : Croatia
we might be seeing Pac4 
in the near time since its obvious drones and cruise missile while undetectable during flight path above radar coverage due to earth curve still had to enter Patriot engagement envelope and still nothing. AN/MPQ-65 did not even see them. I saw no missiles being fired during explosions and no mentioning of them even being fired. Algorithms or whatever never mind now but the reason for why the Russian MoD judged them as ineffective. Every other country sees territories protected by Patriot as unprotected territories and everything US claims to protect with Patriot as unprotected.
in the near time since its obvious drones and cruise missile while undetectable during flight path above radar coverage due to earth curve still had to enter Patriot engagement envelope and still nothing. AN/MPQ-65 did not even see them. I saw no missiles being fired during explosions and no mentioning of them even being fired. Algorithms or whatever never mind now but the reason for why the Russian MoD judged them as ineffective. Every other country sees territories protected by Patriot as unprotected territories and everything US claims to protect with Patriot as unprotected.
kvs- Posts : 15839
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Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
magnumcromagnon wrote:It's now finally came full circle, with the final nail in the coffin of anti-Pantsir demonization. Uzi Rubin, former head of the Israeli Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense (ABM) Organization, and the developer Arrow-3, has now recommended Pantsir-S1 to remedy the failings of Pac-2, VL-MICA and the other SAMS in Saudi hands:
In his opinion, the main problem of Saudi Arabia was the difficulty in detecting low-flying missiles and drones over a large territory. According to Rubin, the Russian Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile-cannon complex (ZRPK) is suitable for the destruction of such targets. - Uzi Rubin
https://vpk.name/news/330132_izrail_obyasnil_proval_mim104_patriot_i_porekomendoval_pancirs1.html?new#new
But Pompeo has told the world that the reason for the epic fail of US produced missile systems was the "unprecedented number of
drones" used to attack the Saudi oil facility. Are you telling me that these systems were totally useless? LOL.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Join date : 2016-11-06
unprecedented number. I am curious if 22 is a large amount when Russia faced much worst and actually defended the base successfully?
Isos- Posts : 11592
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Join date : 2015-11-06
UAE have pantsirs. They will for sure send some to protect Saudis oil fields. But they still lack a strong radar coverage and its not huge radars like those that are part of S-300 or Patriot that will cover the country, but smaller one in big numbers.
I already sugesed the intensive use of radars like 1L122E that work on L band with 80km range but that are mounted on MT-LB plateforms. 80 of them +10 command posts togather with 80 pantsirs spread accross the country and tors protecting the main targets would nullify any missile attack.
If they want to protect against iranian ballistic missiles add 10 S-300VM which are half as expensive as S-400 and with 4 gamma s1 400km range and 1 protovnikGE (400km and 200km altitude) and 1 rezonance NE (1100km and 100km altitude) for high altitude detection.
That's simple abd would cost them less than those patriots.
1l122-1 40km range and 1l122-2 80km range :
Gamma s1:
Protivnik :
Rezonance N:
I already sugesed the intensive use of radars like 1L122E that work on L band with 80km range but that are mounted on MT-LB plateforms. 80 of them +10 command posts togather with 80 pantsirs spread accross the country and tors protecting the main targets would nullify any missile attack.
If they want to protect against iranian ballistic missiles add 10 S-300VM which are half as expensive as S-400 and with 4 gamma s1 400km range and 1 protovnikGE (400km and 200km altitude) and 1 rezonance NE (1100km and 100km altitude) for high altitude detection.
That's simple abd would cost them less than those patriots.
1l122-1 40km range and 1l122-2 80km range :
Gamma s1:
Protivnik :
Rezonance N:
medo- Posts : 4343
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Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
miketheterrible wrote:unprecedented number. I am curious if 22 is a large amount when Russia faced much worst and actually defended the base successfully?
This number is not a problems for Pantsir-S1 battery or Tor-M2 battery, which are in Hmeimim.
But it is unprecedented number for western complexes. Even if Patriot could not see and engage them, because it work in sector only and may look in other way, they should be engaged by three baterries of Skyguard 35 mm guns and by one baterry of Crotale missiles. They are there for this kind of treat. Four batteries for close protection could not see them and shot them down?
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Isos- Posts : 11592
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Join date : 2015-11-06
Four batteries for close protection could not see them and shot them down?
You need early warnings that the missiles are coming. There was no sign of such attacks was going to happen and the system may have been not even working during the night. Main threats were in the south and east.
This number is not a problems for Pantsir-S1 battery or Tor-M2 battery, which are in Hmeimim.
Syrian pantsirs were overwhelmed by Israeli which destroyed already 3 of them with similar weapons.
Last edited by Isos on Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
medo- Posts : 4343
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Isos wrote:UAE have pantsirs. They will for sure send some to protect Saudis oil fields. But they still lack a strong radar coverage and its not huge radars like those that are part of S-300 or Patriot that will cover the country, but smaller one in big numbers.
I already sugesed the intensive use of radars like 1L122E that work on L band with 80km range but that are mounted on MT-LB plateforms. 80 of them +10 command posts togather with 80 pantsirs spread accross the country and tors protecting the main targets would nullify any missile attack.
If they want to protect against iranian ballistic missiles add 10 S-300VM which are half as expensive as S-400 and with 4 gamma s1 400km range and 1 protovnikGE (400km and 200km altitude) and 1 rezonance NE (1100km and 100km altitude) for high altitude detection.
That's simple abd would cost them less than those patriots.
No, UAE will not send pantsirs to KSA. UAE have them in Yemen, they have them in Libya and they need them at home to protect important objects.
Interesting is, that Iran got from Russian those OTH radar Rezonans, which Iran produce them as Ghadir, and AESA radar Gamma-DE, which Iran produce as Falagh and AESA radar Nebo-SVU.
Export Pantsir-S1 and Tor-M1 batteries are equipped with Kasta-2E2 radars with range of 150 km. Kasta-2E2 is made exactly to detect low flying targets. Iran got Kasta-2E2 radars together with Tor-M1. Iran produce their own Kasta-2E2 radars as Kavosh.
In air defense you will for sure not waste SAM batteries to defend empty desert. Such SHORADs you place around objects you want to defend. Every SHORAD battery have its own search radar there to detect such low flying targets. They don't need very long range. They will detect everything, that is comming to the object they defend.
Isos- Posts : 11592
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Join date : 2015-11-06
Such SHORADs you place around objects you want to defend.
It's then easy to overwhelm. Having lines of pantsir separated 10 km each one from the other will enable you to shoot at those cruise missiles flying above you while they don't even try to attack the pantsirs because their target would be 100km behind. Then the remaining missiles that would go through that line will be more easy to destroy for the tor and pantsirs protecting the target.
Having a total radar coverage of you country with small radars means more chances to detect low flying missiles so that you can activate your pantsirs 20-30 minutes before the missiles come to the tarets. Your kasta will detect and transmit the order few seconds before the attack because this 150 km range is certainly not against low flying cruise missiles. It has 41km range against a 2 m2 target flying at 100km ( http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/radar-and-electro-optical-equipment-for-air-target-detection/kasta-2e2/ ). They are also affected by terrain while smaller 1l122 can be placed everywhere in bigger numbers because they are far cheaper.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Isos wrote:You need early warnings that the missiles are coming. There was no sign of such attacks was going to happen and the system may have been not even working during the night. Main threats were in the south and east.
No you don't. Yes those batteries are connected into IADS (if Saudi have it), but they don't need early warnings to protect the object. Those four batteries were not in home base, where they could sleep, but at defense of strategically inportant rafinery, what meand they are on duty 24/7. They have more crews to rotate. Every battery have its own search radar, which is working and looking for any treat to the defending object. They are there to detect those low altitude targets, because every man in air defense know, that big EW radar will not detect targets at very low altitudes in long ranges. They cover 360o, so it doesn't matter, from which direction target will come.
Syrian pantsirs were overwhelmed by Israeli which destroyed already 3 of them with similar weapons
Because Syrians did what they should never do. They defent the object by single Pantsir, not by the unit. Basic unit in air defense is battery and you NEVER break battery to single TELARs. Air defense work inside battery exactly for that reason, that TELARs cover and protect each other, when 1 TELAR is attacked by a swarm or it need to load new missiles. If Syrians did use them inside batteries, they would not lost them.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Isos wrote:Such SHORADs you place around objects you want to defend.
It's then easy to overwhelm. Having lines of pantsir separated 10 km each one from the other will enable you to shoot at those cruise missiles flying above you while they don't even try to attack the pantsirs because their target would be 100km behind. Then the remaining missiles that would go through that line will be more easy to destroy for the tor and pantsirs protecting the target.
Having a total radar coverage of you country with small radars means more chances to detect low flying missiles so that you can activate your pantsirs 20-30 minutes before the missiles come to the tarets. Your kasta will detect and transmit the order few seconds before the attack because this 150 km range is certainly not against low flying cruise missiles. It has 41km range against a 2 m2 target flying at 100km ( http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/radar-and-electro-optical-equipment-for-air-target-detection/kasta-2e2/ ). They are also affected by terrain while smaller 1l122 can be placed everywhere in bigger numbers because they are far cheaper.
What are you talking about? What 100 km behind? What 20 to 30 minutes to activate? Are you crazy? You really don't know what air defense is. If Saudis think about air defense in your way, than I'm not surprized, that they got all drones and cruise missiles in rafinery and they are not even knowing. SHORAD is for point defense and first you should learn what point defense is. Do you know, what luxury of time mean Kasta-2E2 for SHORAD battery? It have range of 150 km and SHORAD missiles have range of around 10 km. You have more than enough time to detect, track and engage the target.
Isos- Posts : 11592
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Join date : 2015-11-06
No you don't. Yes those batteries are connected into IADS (if Saudi have it), but they don't need early warnings to protect the object. Those four batteries were not in home base, where they could sleep, but at defense of strategically inportant rafinery, what meand they are on duty 24/7. They have more crews to rotate.
You were there with them ? What I understand is that they didn't even detected the attack which is very unlikely if the systems were operated. At least those 35mm should have opened fire at the last moment. The most likely is that they were turned off and the crew was sleeping.
IADS means early warnings too. So they need radars at borders to detect the entry of cruise missiles into the territory and put on combat duty all the air defence systems if they are not which they didn't. The best way to do so is put many small radars in places were cruise missiles have advantage over your air defence line mountainous areas or deserts were there is no one.
That's what russia did in Syria. They deployed 1l122 there. But they can also deploy more Kasta than a small country as they produce them and they are cheap for them. Syria is full of such radar around Hmeimim ro provide early warning.
Because Syrians did what they should never do. They defent the object by single Pantsir, not by the unit. Basic unit in air defense is battery and you NEVER break battery to single TELARs. Air defense work inside battery exactly for that reason, that TELARs cover and protect each other, when 1 TELAR is attacked by a swarm or it need to load new missiles. If Syrians did use them inside batteries, they would not lost them.
They are helped by russians for their airdefence. Very unlikely it was alone. Even with a baterie they would need to destroy tens of missiles in matter of 1 minute.
Isos- Posts : 11592
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Join date : 2015-11-06
What are you talking about? What 100 km behind? What 20 to 30 minutes to activate? Are you crazy? You really don't know what air defense is. If Saudis think about air defense in your way, than I'm not surprized, that they got all drones and cruise missiles in rafinery and they are not even knowing. SHORAD is for point defense and first you should learn what point defense is. Do you know, what luxury of time mean Kasta-2E2 for SHORAD battery? It have range of 150 km and SHORAD missiles have range of around 10 km. You have more than enough time to detect, track and engage the target.
Kasta has has 40km range against a 2 m2 target flying at 100m. Against a cruise missile with a rcs of 0.2m2 flying at 50m ot would be something like 20km. If the missile is flying at 800km/h it means a warning time of 1.5 minutes. Basic maths. If the pantsir operator is not in the pantsir smocking a cigar or in W.C, the target is done.
If you have 80-100 radars like 1l122 with a range of 80 km you can put them in a line 10-20 km each one from the other at your border and see everything flying there and coming inside your territory. If you have a line of 10 pantsirs 10 each one from the other (line 200km) you can shoot at any missile trying to go through that line and trying to reach a target 100 km behind that line. Then the few pantsirs protecting the target will have to deal with a small amount of missiles and they will be more than ready. No surprise attack and no overwhelming attack. Having a lot of small radar means also if you loose one it won't affect greatly your defence.
If you pack all your shorads near the target with the radars close to them, you will be surprised and overwhelmed.
Pantsir is more like a medium range system than a shorad (like a tunguska is) and they are getting the 40km range missile too.