Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

Actually new Russian shipyard Zvezda in Vladivostok will be finished in coming years and will be capable to build carriers as it is designed to build the largest ships.

medo wrote:Actually new Russian shipyard Zvezda in Vladivostok will be finished in coming years and will be capable to build carriers as it is designed to build the largest ships.

I like it when the future tense tends to be used on such issues, thus agreeing with my point.

George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

Like the Chinese do.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005

It would make sense if they could keep the cost down, install nuclear reactor and catapults.

I think that Russian Navy does not need larger carriers than Kuznetsov class, provided they upgrade it properly. But they seem determined to go ''full Nimitz''.

PapaDragon wrote:

George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

Like the Chinese do.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005

It would make sense if they could keep the cost down, install nuclear reactor and catapults.

They will, like 6 moths ago there was in TASS interview with admiral (forgot name but can be found in new AC thread) was talking about concepts of 2 different types, both nuclear powered:


1) 20,000t+ classbased on elemnts of Leader hull
2) 80,000 t class

PapaDragon wrote:
I think that Russian Navy does not need larger carriers than Kuznetsov class, provided they upgrade it properly. But they seem determined to go ''full Nimitz''.

All depends on missions planned. I ma a big fan of VSTOL but Russie does not seem to re-born this concept. Maybe planned MiG Concept of VSTOL light fighter in connection with V gen. Otherwise light AC make not much sense.

Big guys have more like 50 navalized PAK-FA what is good Battle group protection and can perform tasks far away frmm own shores. Cost might be prohibitive though. Maybe 2-3 could be built.

1) 20,000t+ classbased on elemnts of Leader hull
2) 80,000 t class

Well thats new & interesting

20,000 is pretty small, presumably that'd be just a helicopter carrier, maybe just referring to the Mistral replacement?
Makes me think of this for some reason (though it'd have been well under 20k)


I like the idea of a 100k full kitted out monster but it does seem to make more sense to start out with an improved Kuznetsov or two like China & India, though 'bigger' may well be one of the main requested improvements.

Also: 'dat crane makes that pretty large ship look tiny in my brain even though I know it's really a damn big crane

Carriers are expensive and last for decades... it would not make sense to build some new carriers based on the Kuznetsov.

They can upgrade the K with nuke propulsion and a basic EM cat system for heavy AWACS aircraft perhaps and also replace the old weapons and electronics with new systems like new SAMs and remove the Granits and replace that with 2-4 UKSK launchers so that it can carry some anti sub missiles and anti ship missiles and some long range land attack weapons.

VSTOL are poor substitutes compared to real aircraft, and very vulnerable to IR detection as well with their large IR signature.

A slightly bigger carrier and fixed wing aircraft like MiGs and PAK FAs and you get a much more capable aircraft... that is not so different from its land based equivalent which saves a lot of money too.

They want helicopter carriers for interventions, and they want fixed wing aircraft carriers to protect their ships... two different requirements with likely two different types of carriers that result.

One will be a fixed wing carrier and the other will be a helicopter carrier.

There wont be a Nimitz type 100K carrier... at most it will be 80K and likely less.

George1 wrote:Do u think Russia should build 1-2 aircraft carriers based on Kuznetsov class until they start the project of 23000E??

Like the Chinese do.
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2634p25-future-chinese-aircraft-carriers#176005

By the time the Russian shipyards can be ready, the project 23000E should be ready for production.

I think the new Zvezda shipyard in Vladivostok has more potential than the previous USSR shipyard Nikolayev since Zvezda is facing open sea, while ships built in Nikolayev will have to go through the bosporus strait, which could be restricted by the Turks.

BTW why didn't they come up with building a huge shipyard in the Arkengelsk region that can build Aircraft carriers? Is it because of the climate? Its in open sea too, unlike in the baltics and black sea

Severodvinsk...

hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate construction of large surface ships as well

Project Canada wrote:

hoom wrote:Severodvinsk...

Im sorry, i forgot to mention, however my impression is that the shipyard there is mostly for sub construction. Maybe it can be expanded to accommodate  construction  of large surface ships as well

It lacks capable dockyard cranes to begin with.

There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...

I am really interested in this particular topic, especially the new aircraft carrier and the shipbuilding facilities that may eventually construct these vessels.

In my own view I do believe that Zvezda Shipyard is the potential candidate for the future aircraft carrier production facility.

As shown:

TVERKI

As shown they have already installed in the first stage of the construction two goliath type cranes and they did announce another type of goliath type crane that has a lifting capacity of 1,200 tons. As these cranes are installed during the first phase of construction of the shipyard it would seem that these are of a smaller capacity but this is just the first phase, the installation of the 1,200 ton capacity crane will be installed in the second phase as mention by Igor Sechin.

Later, the President was able to personally verify this – he inspected the area of installation work of the complex, where a few days ago was delivered of modern specialized cranes with lifting capacity of 320 tons. Moreover, these impressive units is only a part of a joint contract with plant with Chinese partners. In the near future on the «Star» appears, tap the type of «Goliath», lifting capacity 1200 ton, it’s almost 3 Boeing-747. The word «unique» here is not for effect – such cranes in Russia never imported and are not exploited.

I watched in Sdelanounas the installation of these cranes.





Also during President Putin's visit to the Zvezda Shipyard three weeks ago you can notice the presence of Deputy Minister of Defence Yuriy Borisov and Rogozin is also present which adds to my speculation of the Zvezda Shipyards potential role in the naval shipbuilding program.



Given also the sheer dimension of the dry dock which is 114 x 14 x 485, one would assume that it will cater to large naval orders in the future.

A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.



Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon

KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon

The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

Singular_trafo wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon

The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

KiloGolf wrote:

Singular_trafo wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:A 1,200 ton is CV building material indeed. Russia has bought Chinese, like the British. Possibly similar cranes in design to that of Goliath (1,000 ton lift) which now sits at Rosyth and was/is used for the CVF project. That said, Nikolayev has two 900 ton Goliath cranes which probably allows more volume production and flexibility. But one massive 1,200 crane should allow building a supercarrier every 6-7 years or so.

Interesting times ahead, if Russians get serious about this. Lets hope a new Nikolayev will emerge soon

The crane and the dock trivial and small cost of the whole project.

The plant that make from the sheets modules is the most important.


The shipyard that managed to make Tajfun submarine can make without any trouble a supercarrier, with minor modifications.

I'll venture to say that steel bought and processed in the far East is cheaper than Europe. So Zvezda is positioned very well in that regard. I have no idea what the Russian industry in the region is like, but they could fill the gaps by getting some modules built in Korea and/or China.

Out of question.

You can't build warship modules in antoher country.

You need to make them there.

And the cost of the steel irrelevant, the hours that you need to make them is the most important.

GarryB wrote:There is no point in building Carriers now... they need more modern smaller vessels to operate with the current carrier, and of course they need support vessels and a world wide network of foreign friendly bases to "visit" too.

I suspect a production start date of 2022-2023 with operational capability 2030 or so for the first new carrier and 2034 for the second.

I would hope they plan a drastic upgrade of the K between now and 2022 that would include a nuclear power plant and complete upgrade of sensors and weapons and perhaps a small simple EM cat to allow a heavier AWACS aircraft to operate from the carrier.

In mid 2020s an upgrade of aircraft to add PAK FA in a naval version.

As I said elsewhere I would add UKSK capability because that adds supersonic and later hypersonic anti ship and land attack cruise missile capability and anti sub capability too...

From russia standpoint it is irrelevant if China, _India or Russia build carriers.

All of the hold up the US military force, and grinding it into useless pieces, if they try to cover the whol eworld.

What I don't get is, India(whose MIC, is a mere fraction of Russia), can have decent Aircraft Carriers but Russia can't? Are Russian shipbuilders that bad, that they can not build Aircraft Carriers? It just sucks that Russia missed out on the Mistrals, if the shit, in Ukraine was delayed, by 6-8 months, than Russia would probably had the Mistrals(at least one of them). That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

par far wrote:What I don't get is, India(whose MIC, is a mere fraction of Russia), can have decent Aircraft Carriers but Russia can't? Are Russian shipbuilders that bad, that they can not build Aircraft Carriers? It just sucks that Russia missed out on the Mistrals, if the shit, in Ukraine was delayed, by 6-8 months, than Russia would probably had the Mistrals(at least one of them). That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

In short.. yes they are atm that bad, partially bad partially no facilities to do so. However that is not the only reason why they are not building carrier, reasons could fill a small book.

par far wrote:What I don't get is, India(whose MIC, is a mere fraction of Russia), can have decent Aircraft Carriers but Russia can't? Are Russian shipbuilders that bad, that they can not build Aircraft Carriers? It just sucks that Russia missed out on the Mistrals, if the shit, in Ukraine was delayed, by 6-8 months, than Russia would probably had the Mistrals(at least one of them). That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

India didn't had economic breakdown in 90s and didn't lose big military shipyards in Ukraine.

A1RMAN wrote:

par far wrote:What I don't get is, India(whose MIC, is a mere fraction of Russia), can have decent Aircraft Carriers but Russia can't? Are Russian shipbuilders that bad, that they can not build Aircraft Carriers? It just sucks that Russia missed out on the Mistrals, if the shit, in Ukraine was delayed, by 6-8 months, than Russia would probably had the Mistrals(at least one of them). That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

India didn't had economic breakdown in 90s and didn't lose big military shipyards in Ukraine.

They could if they put enough money. But they are modernizing all the navy with a plan. Spending 5 billions $ for a carrier that won't be used (like USA does) and with no frigate and destroyers escorting it is stupid.

India had many miilitary project and at the end they still go for russian. Look at Grigorovitch frigate, they have their Shivalik which is better armed, bigger and made in India but they still ordered 4 Grigorovich ... Same with ther Tejas (like 30y/o and worst than mirages and mig-29 in every aspect) .

Their indigenous AC will probably be a big failure. Even the Charles de Gaulle made by France (which has much more experience) has lot of failures. I've seen in french media that a part of the ship had just 1 mm fault in the dimensions which significantly impacted on the ship.

That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

They should have had two Mistrals... the reason they don't is not Russias fault it is flaky unreliable France that didn't fulfil their contractual obligations.

It is OK.

It will likely take longer now but I think Russia will build its own mistral equivalent though they will likely use nuke propulsion instead and they can optimise the design for their own specific needs... ie icebreaker capable and able to carry Kamov type helos and with decent self defence weapons.

par far wrote:What I don't get is, India(whose MIC, is a mere fraction of Russia), can have decent Aircraft Carriers but Russia can't? Are Russian shipbuilders that bad, that they can not build Aircraft Carriers? It just sucks that Russia missed out on the Mistrals, if the shit, in Ukraine was delayed, by 6-8 months, than Russia would probably had the Mistrals(at least one of them). That would have been a lovely dream, come true, imagine, taking the Mistral, to Syria.

The only current Indian Navy aircraft carrier was built in the USSR, and rebuilt in a Russian shipyard.
Of course, they have the locally built INS Vikrant being built, but it is a few years away from service.

IMHO, a sensible option would be for a common carrier design for Russia and India. I'm speaking of hull and propulsion built in each country to a common design, of which the two different navies could then outfit differently depending on their requirements.
This would bring economies of scale....instead of 1 or 2 one-off carrier designs, you might usefully see 4 to 6 built across both navies.

the most sensible way actually is a join-venture. like this new carrier china is building let china produce hulls and then tow them to vladivostok far east for nuclear propulsion installation. 1 goes back to china 1 stays in russia.
so china provides hulls, russia provide propulsion and compensate with an air wing if needed or so.... each country then installs its own sensor suite.
its easiest ,fastest ,and cheapest way.