Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

Tsavo Lion wrote:I don't argue with that, & the Russians know it too. But 1st it must be picked up where they left off- i.e Kiev class type TAKRs with STOVLs- they can afford them now, esp. after the Mistral deal was cancelled & all $ paid back with some extra added, thanks to the favorable exchange rate. TAKRs can be adopted for assault ship roles (UDK in Russian designation) as they can get closer to the enemy's shores.
A few more factors to consider:
1. There's no guarantee that any future CVNs won't have to be kept longer in service-like most other ships in Soviet & Russian navy- i.e. past 30 y. reactor life.
2. Aside from refueling it or installing a new 1, refits & modernizations take a long time, usually longer in RF than in the West.
3. 3 CVNs armed with only CIWS & SAMs like in the USN will need
"1 Guided Missile Cruiser (for Air Defense), 2 LAMPS (Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System) Capable Warships (focusing on Anti-Submarine and Surface Warfare), and 1–2 Anti Submarine Destroyers or Frigates.", i.e. 4-5 warships to escort it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_battle_group#Carrier_strike_group  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group
 4. Simple math: 3 CBGs x 5 ships + 1-2 subs + 1 supply ship = 15 extra warships, 3-6 subs & 3 supply ships on rotation to make just 1 CBG ready to sail 24/7 beyond the EEZ.
IMO, only the #1 navy has the #s needed for that. Putin wants the RF to have a #2 navy. But when/if combined with the PRC & Pakistani naval surface & sub. escorts in the Indo-Pacific, it can be done.

Almost agreed. IMHO it can be TAKR (UKSK-M can have all kinds of missile sinclusive AAD) with similarly to Juan Carlos AC mission dependent air wing.


But in Russia there are not many capital ships and TAKR can still be considered as command ship + missile cruiser. In times of locla wars or humanitarian missions can be reequipped to other variant then AC.



What I diagree with you is need to be near US shores. For this are Rubezh, Yars, Samat, skiff and Kh-101, Kh-50 or new hypersonic missile missile with 12-14Ma

GarryB wrote:Everything is vulnerable to attack... there is nothing they can build that will be totally safe from enemy attack.


The point is some pissy little helicopter carrier with VTOL fighter planes wont be that much more useful than an S-400 with 400km range SAMs that can also hit enemy aircraft within a radius of 400km of the ship carrying it...

so you didnt check that my post showing that Yak-141 and MiG-29k have same combat radius, did you?

On the other hand a medium carrier with cats and a decent AWACS aircraft and fighters that can fly 1,200km plus radius offer the surface group real layered protection from a range of threats.

Interesting that UK resigned from building catapults due to to high costs...and decided to buy STOV instead

Following the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review, the British government had intended to purchase the F-35C carrier version of this aircraft, and adopted plans for Prince of Wales to be built to a Catapult Assisted Take Off Barrier Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) configuration. After the projected costs of the CATOBAR system rose to around twice the original estimate, the government announced that it would revert to the original design on 10 May 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft_carrier

So actually British ACs are shitty right? only 40 STVOLs

AWACS? and who told you that you need Yak-44 in new form? We are in XXI century there are drones. According to Design Bureau Kronshtad VTOL drone Fregat can fly for 10 hours and carry 700kg in VTO mode. If not Fregat there will be other Converto drones.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2015/8/31/3502/?h

Ka-31 AWACS module was weighting 200kg + antenna . Really cannot you use drones?

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/

More Details Revealed About Russia's New Aircraft Carrier Project

Sputnik/ Sergey Mamontov
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
14:31 05.09.2017(updated 17:18 05.09.2017) Get short URL4291

Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard with no limits on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships can be used for work on the new aircraft carrier, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's new aircraft carrier might be built at Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard, which will be ready by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.

"We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

At the same time, the deputy prime minister indicated that the site for the new aircraft carrier's construction would be decided upon by the Russian Defense Ministry.

Rogozin also indicated that the dry dock would be 114 meters (374 feet) wide and would accommodate the construction of tankers with tonnages of up to 350,000 tons and of "Arctic gas carriers" which will have tonnages of up to 250,000 tons.

As for today, the Russian Navy's only aircraft carrier is the Admiral Kuznetsov. The modernization of the aircraft carrier is scheduled for 2018. As for Russia's new aircraft carrier, its construction is planned to begin by 2025, when the state rearmament program terminates.

Nothing new ...

Until very recently, it was a strong shipyard capability denial here. The words of Rogozin are quite clear.

eehnie wrote:

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/

More Details Revealed About Russia's New Aircraft Carrier Project

Sputnik/ Sergey Mamontov
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
14:31 05.09.2017(updated 17:18 05.09.2017) Get short URL4291

Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard with no limits on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships can be used for work on the new aircraft carrier, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's new aircraft carrier might be built at Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard, which will be ready by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.

"We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

At the same time, the deputy prime minister indicated that the site for the new aircraft carrier's construction would be decided upon by the Russian Defense Ministry.

Rogozin also indicated that the dry dock would be 114 meters (374 feet) wide and would accommodate the construction of tankers with tonnages of up to 350,000 tons and of "Arctic gas carriers" which will have tonnages of up to 250,000 tons.

As for today, the Russian Navy's only aircraft carrier is the Admiral Kuznetsov. The modernization of the aircraft carrier is scheduled for 2018. As for Russia's new aircraft carrier, its construction is planned to begin by 2025, when the state rearmament program terminates.

Nothing new ...

Until very recently, it was a strong shipyard capability denial here. The words of Rogozin are quite clear.

Indeed. Disgusting revisionism from the same "Russia can't make anything" sh*tposters.

Isos wrote:Anyway the fact that they proposed only shtorm design proves that they are far from starting building it. They should have proposed many design like they did for lider class with different propulsion and lenght.

Shtorm has nothing official. Neither those "carrier for vtol" that you are talking about.

When they will annouce and present some official design we could talk about it. Untill that day all this is amateur talk between random guys on the net.

They said mig is working on mig 41 and on new 5th gen fighter just like they said they will work on this new vtol but until today we saw nothing and if i m not wrong they allowed money for mig 41 just recently. Like always russian talk and say a lot but not much is really done and you have to wait long time before it happens.

So let's wait for this carrier.

Official words are in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015. It states that there are less than 3 years to have the project of new aircraft carrier ready.

Also official words say that the upgraded shipyard without tonnage limits will be ready also in 2020.

The Project 23000 emerged and is going forward.

Alternative projects have a narrower timeline every day.

Official words are in the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015. It states that there are less than 3 years to have the project of new aircraft carrier ready.

So the project is not ready andd they may be working on it but still they didn't show any design, just the shtorm and no official statements about naval su-57 which was showed on the maket.

Also official words say that the upgraded shipyard without tonnage limits will be ready also in 2020.

Other systems have to be ready too. Its one thing building a 100 kt ship, another one building a carrier fully equiped. Catapults need a long time to be created and ready for use for exemple.

We saw how many issues they had with gorshkov systems and how long they needed to solve them. Carrier are much bigger and a new technology for russian companies.

They will have delays and over costs for sure. They need to be ready for this and don't overestimate their capabilities.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Project 23000 was proposed to the navy they have NEVER said they actually plan to build it or are committed to the thing

The most recent thing we have on carriers from Russia officially is they plan to build more Kuz style carriers which is a far more sensible move for them.

No. The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 says:

Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211908
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211922

The Project 23000 is the alone known living project, fits perfectly the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, and is going forward.

Other alternatives are totally unknown if exist, something clearly in doubt, and have narrower timeline to emerge every day.

The-thing-next-door wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:........

And developing an effective VTOL capable of carying ASHMs is so much easier and cheaper and will be done overnight not to mention how the factories to produce it will magicaly apear once the first prototype does not explode on its first flight and is acepted by the Russian navy.
...........................

Much easier and much cheaper than some 100.000 ton fanart.

Let's just get one thing clear:  I personally think that Russia does not need any kind carrier at all other than helicopter carriers for anti-sub ops.

Carrier vessels that operate fixed-wing aircraft are obsolete relics of bygone era. Overpriced, overadvertized, overengineered deathtraps that have no place in this day and age.

But if Russia keeps insisting on operating them then I prefer LHD/STOVL combo as a solution because that option is by far least harmful from financial standpoint and they might actually get some use out of them as anti-sub helicopter carriers.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:................
Hardly all that is said here is "The new shipyard we are building is where the new carrier will be made and we have no tonnage limit there"
We already knew this for how many years?.
There really is nothing new there information wise.

And that new shipyard is already getting clogged with orders from oil industry.

I am sure they can't wait to drop all that and get cracking on new white-mammoth project worthy of Kuznetzov with imaginary money that totally shouldn't be spent on combat vessels that navy actually needs.

kvs wrote:.....................
Indeed.  Disgusting revisionism from the same "Russia can't make anything" sh*tposters.

Of course, disgusting revisionism....

After all we have Anime-class Lider nuclear destroyer currently being built in secret somewhere in the Arctic so Shtorm megacarrier is just months away, right?  

If Russia is not going to build the project 2300 Shtorm in the 2020s what are they going to do with thier upgraded shipyard? Build spam boats,Kiev class crap carriers,speedboats,airliners and hotels?

Also what "worthwhile comabt vessels" does the Russian navy need inflatable rubber boats maby some dingys?

And as for VTOL aircraft it would be preferable to have no aircraft at all.

The-thing-next-door wrote:.......
Also what "worthwhile comabt vessels" does the Russian navy need inflatable rubber boats maby some dingys?...

Corvettes, frigates, destroyers, minesweepers, patrol vessels, transport ships, LHDs, SSGNs, SSBNs and all that other stuff that they have desperately lacked for decades now.

The-thing-next-door wrote:...And as for VTOL aircraft it would be preferable to have no aircraft at all.

If it means not wasting money on aircraft carriers then hell yeah, agreed in full.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Civilian projects, They can lay down 300K LNG carriers and what not. You realize shipyards don't exist for just the military right?

The point is when they are finally ready for building a carrier they will have a shipyard capable of it.

This is just one thing in a long list they need done before they can create a Carrier Strike Group.

Lol the trolls are quite desperate. To remember his own words of some days ago:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7136p50-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-2#211210

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Has for the shipyard....are you going to tell me Russia can make ships at the pace of the SK's cause if you are. That shit is beyond hilarious. Rusia wishes even with it's new shipyard it could produce shit at HALF the rate the NK's do. There is no country on earth that can out build the SK's when it comes to ships.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

The-thing-next-door wrote:If Russia is not going to build the project 2300 Shtorm in the 2020s what are they going to do with thier upgraded shipyard? Build spam boats,Kiev class crap carriers,speedboats,airliners and hotels?

Civilian projects, They can lay down 300K LNG carriers and what not. You realize shipyards don't exist for just the military right?

The point is when they are finally ready for building a carrier they will have a shipyard capable of it.

This is just one thing in a long list they need done before they can create a Carrier Strike Group.

Damn you you left a somewhat rational comment I cannot mock easily lol. Not to worry I will just make a satirical response to Pappadragon.

Time for a totaly serious demonstration of why SIZE MATTERS.

If you are being aproached by an enemy Maus What will help you more?

Sorry I was too lazy to find a cringe inducing weeb image.



300 .32 revolvers.

I would have said pea shooters as in the littoral straw with a pea in it but that seemed a little cheap.


Or 1 2a32-P Condensator

This thing is so powerful that it defies the laws of physics


Anyway Jokes aside VTOL is a useless waste of money it would be more advisable to build some 2000mm propaganda guns for your army and actualy try and send them to support eavery single small war that goes on.

UCAVs r not mature enough even in the US to replace manned fighters. The Su-33 production won't restart, & navalized Su-57 may not be that good either to justify investing in it, especially w/o any certainty that Storm size CVN will ever materialize.  
Su-33 Length: 21.19 m (69 ft 6 in)
              Wingspan: 14.7 m (48 ft 3 in)
                   Height: 5.93 m (19 ft 6 in)
              Wing area: 67.84 m² (730 ft²)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-33#Specifications

Su-57  Length: 19.8 m (65 ft)
                Wingspan: 13.95 m (45 ft 10 in)
                     Height: 4.74 m (15 ft 7 in)
                Wing area: 78.8 m² (848.1 ft²)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Specifications_(T-50)

Both r nearly identical in size.
The Yak-141 is little shorter & has less wingspan:
   Length: 18.36 m (60 ft 2¼ in)
Wingspan: 10.105 m (33 ft 1½ in)
    Height: 5.00 m (16 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 31.7 m² (341 ft²)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-141#Specifications_(Yak-41)
The MiG-29K is the smallest:
Length: 17.3 m (57 ft 9 in)     Wingspan: 11.99 m (39 ft 5 in)
Height: 4.4 m (14 ft 5 in)      Wing area: 43 m² (462 ft²)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29K#Specifications_(MiG-29K)

The Indians r unhappy with it (there's no smoke w/o fire) & I don't think it could be improved much more, unless they build a "Super Fulcrum" ala "Super Hornet", but even then it'll be about the size of the Su-33.
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2016/08/10/report-india-s-russian-made-mig-29k-fighters-face-problems/

There's a reason the F-15/111/22, Y-20, & MiG-23/27/35 were not, & will never be navalized- very expensive & with a lot less performance. The Su-27 was navalized into Su-33 because there was nothing else of this size at the time & the USSR needed a heavier longer range naval carrier borne fighter. China also didn't have anything ready for her 1st CV, so they copied/modified it into the J-15, instead of navalizing their J-8/10.
The YAK-141 was built as a naval fighter from the start; no need to design a new STOVL fighter- just upgrade/modify the YAK-141/43 and start producing it. It won't be a good substitute for a CTOL fighter, but will be the next best thing. If China needs STOVL fighters even as they r now building 2 CVs with the 1st CVN to follow with EMALs on it & already have J-15s for them, Russia will need them even more!
Also, u need 3 ships to have 1 ready for war 24/7, & the USN & RN had steam CATs on conventional CVs- nuclear power isn't essential.
The UK decided that the CATs r not feasible as they also take a lot of valuable space & need extra personnel to operate & maintain, besides the high cost.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Civilian projects, They can lay down 300K LNG carriers and what not. You realize shipyards don't exist for just the military right?

The point is when they are finally ready for building a carrier they will have a shipyard capable of it.

This is just one thing in a long list they need done before they can create a Carrier Strike Group.

Lol the trolls are quite desperate. To remember his own words of some days ago:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7136p50-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-2#211210

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Has for the shipyard....are you going to tell me Russia can make ships at the pace of the SK's cause if you are. That shit is beyond hilarious. Rusia wishes even with it's new shipyard it could produce shit at HALF the rate the NK's do. There is no country on earth that can out build the SK's when it comes to ships.

Wait wait WAIT you seriously trying to tell me EVEN YOU thinks that Russia can build ships are the pace of the South Koreans.....

Check your self into a mental asylum please cause holy hellz, that takes delusional up to a new level.

No where did my statement say the shipyard they are building cannot produce CV's just that it will take them forever to do so.

To note the N.

Very cute trolling.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Project 23000 was proposed to the navy they have NEVER said they actually plan to build it or are committed to the thing

The most recent thing we have on carriers from Russia officially is they plan to build more Kuz style carriers which is a far more sensible move for them.

No. The Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015 says:

Unlike the heavy aircraft cruisers of the previous generation of Russian aircraft carriers, the new carrier design will be multirole. It is envisaged to be equipped with manned and unmanned combat systems operating in the air, at sea, underwater and possibly in space. The carrier's air groups will include radar surveillance and C2 aircraft, alongside reconnaissance and strike UAVs.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211908
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2025#211922

The Project 23000 is the alone known living project, fits perfectly the Russian Maritime Doctrine of 2015, and is going forward.

Other alternatives are totally unknown if exist, something clearly in doubt.

Keep up with this shit buddy no one but you buys it.

the next phase of the SAP has shown your dream carrier and DD are out.

I'll take the words of the Russians over you on this one~

That doctrine is dead, times and plans have changed. Maybe in the far far away future they will be able to accomplish however it that isn't happening by the date they originally set back in 2015

The bolded parts of your answer are also cute trolling of the same nature. In the rest, lies.

"Warning: This forum is unfortunately dominated by some pro-Israel propagandists." But u r trying to dominate this forum with ur own propaganda! Mr. Goebbels was a lot more skillful, before the internet!

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

kvs wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Isos wrote:

eehnie wrote:https://sputniknews.com/military/201709051057099614-aircraft-carrier-zvezda-shipyard/

More Details Revealed About Russia's New Aircraft Carrier Project

Sputnik/ Sergey Mamontov
MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
14:31 05.09.2017(updated 17:18 05.09.2017) Get short URL4291

Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard with no limits on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships can be used for work on the new aircraft carrier, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's new aircraft carrier might be built at Russia's Far Eastern Zvezda shipyard, which will be ready by 2020, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said Tuesday.

"We no longer have any limitations on the tonnage of civilian maritime vessels and warships that we can construct there [at Zvezda shipyard]… If we attempt to build the military's favorite ship, I mean, an aircraft carrier, then we can build it there [at the shipyard] as well," Rogozin said.

At the same time, the deputy prime minister indicated that the site for the new aircraft carrier's construction would be decided upon by the Russian Defense Ministry.

Rogozin also indicated that the dry dock would be 114 meters (374 feet) wide and would accommodate the construction of tankers with tonnages of up to 350,000 tons and of "Arctic gas carriers" which will have tonnages of up to 250,000 tons.

As for today, the Russian Navy's only aircraft carrier is the Admiral Kuznetsov. The modernization of the aircraft carrier is scheduled for 2018. As for Russia's new aircraft carrier, its construction is planned to begin by 2025, when the state rearmament program terminates.

Nothing new ...

Until very recently, it was a strong shipyard capability denial here. The words of Rogozin are quite clear.

Indeed.  Disgusting revisionism from the same "Russia can't make anything" sh*tposters.

Hardly all that is said here is "The new shipyard we are building is where the new carrier will be made and we have no tonnage limit there"

We already knew this for how many years?.

There really is nothing new there information wise.

Do not like to read it said clearly by high level Russia government persons saying it?