Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Russia has today escort ships and submarines for aircraft carriers, that updated to the modern weapons, would be more than enough to escort more than one aircraft carrier.

Pl. be so kind by providing the active pennant list of surface ships that can safely escort more than 1 TAKR/CVN into the open ocean, stay there for a few months, fight all possible surface, submarine & air threats if necessary & come back. If u think small/medium missile boats/corvettes/frigates can do it effectively than u never been in the real World Ocean cruises (pun intended), naval or civilian. But I have & sailed on the Black Sea, in the Pacific Ocean, from California to Hawaii & the Sea of Japan, in the E & S China Sea, the N. Indian Ocean, & the Arabian Sea/Gulf. Back up ur statements or don't waste my time!

Tsavo Lion wrote:True, but I meant & they reportedly mull buying Chinese FFGs which r not strategic by any stretch.

Much bigger Mistrals was more of a lo$$ to France than to Russia after that deal was cancelled under US pressure after more strategically valuable Crimea (essentially an unsinkable CV) slipped out of Kiev & NATO grasp. So much for "French independent foreign policy". Now Egypt has them; later they may even be re-sold to Russia or some other 3rd country. Recall that Napoleon army raped Egypt ~200 years ago. In their 4K year history, it was like yesterday.

In early 2015, it was reported that Russia might consider buying 054A for its navy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_054A_frigate#Russia

The August issue of Russia's National Defense Magazine has advised the country to buy warships from China to compensate for its own weakness in shipbuilding and to strengthen Russia's power in the Asia-Pacific region.
China's Type 054A frigate may be an ideal option for Russia, the report said.
With debate sparked by the suspension of a French delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships to Russia, the need to bring in escort ships is all the more pressing. Even if Russia receives the two warships — the Vladivostok and the Sevastopol — and integrates them into the fleet in the following two years, the current deploy of warships is far less from sufficient, said the article.
Russia has few active battleships. There is only the Varyag missile cruiser and four Type-1155 destroyers for the country's large anti-submarine warships. These ships, all built during the Soviet era, are old, overused, and still engaged in cruising missions in the neighboring regions or anti-piracy campaigns off Africa. The rest include three Type-956 destroyers, which have been placed under long-term maintenance and are hardly functional, according to the report.
A Mistral-class amphibious assault ship needs three to four escort ships, while other warships, including two Project 955 Borei-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, are also expected to enter service by the end of the year or early next year and will need escorts as well.
Russia is incapable in this stage of filling in its shortage of escort warships, despite the many ships that are being constructed at the country's shipyards, said the report. The delivery of two Project 20380 corvettes from the Almaz Design Bureau has been delayed indefinitely, as well as the Type 22350 escort being assembled by the Northern Design Bureau, due to issues related to funding and inadequate facility technology.
Ukraine, one of the few countries capable of producing combustion turbine engines, had been providing services to Russia before the sanction prohibiting the engine's export to the country. Other countries that could build combustion turbine engines include the US, the UK and China, said the report.
China's Type 054A frigate, codenamed Jiangkai II by NATO, is a perfect fit for the Russian navy for many reasons. First of all, the model was designed and built with help from Russia's leading shipmaker, the Northern Design Bureau in St Petersburg. Second, the ship is equipped with weapons and electronic facilities that are designed according to the specs of samples, allowing the parts to be interchanged conveniently. Third, the advanced war ship meets Russian's demands for powerful weapons, invisibility, adaptability and endurance. Finally, the Type 054A frigate worked well with Russian flotillas well during the Russia-China military drill in May, which shows its capability to work side-by-side with Russian ships.
The Type 054A frigate has a full displacement of 4,053 tonnes, is 134.1 meters long and 16 meters wide. The ship can reach a maximum speed at 27 kn. Its firearms include two sets of quadruple launchers for C-803 missiles, 32 vertical launching systems for HQ-16 missiles, one H/PJ26 stealthy 76mm dual purpose gun mount, two Type 730 seven-barrelled 30 mm Gatling gun close-in weapon systems, 2 x 3 324mm YU-7 ASW torpedo launchers, 2 x 6 Type 87 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, and can carry one Kamov Ka-28 "Helix" or Harbin Z-9C.
Russia has been a mentor to China as it builds up its national defense technology. Now that the Chinese student has outpaced the Russian teacher, "there is no shame" asking for assistance from China, the report said.
Exporting battleships to Russia would be a win-win situation for China, too, since the Russian ships could be leverage on the side of the PLA to balance the influence of US and Japanese maritime forces in the Asia-Pacific. https://web.archive.org/web/20141209030124/http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140930000078&cid=1101
Russian media : the Russian warships 054A can be purchased from China is the best choice
Given the rapid development of China’s shipbuilding industry, to 2018-2020 years ago the Russian Pacific Fleet can get 8-12 Type 054 frigate.
According to the Russian military and political point of view network April 16 reported that the current is delivered on the French “Mistral class” helicopter dock landing ship has yet to quell unrest in Russia, put forward at this time to buy equipment for the Russian Navy’s topic is so outdated, Which is simply what pot does not open the pot. However, in our opinion, this question is more urgent than ever before.
Russian Far East in the water giant marine areas lack of strength, if there are new ships to be fitted out, then the lack of suitable vessels for escort. Where then to get to meet the requirements of anti-submarine and surface ship escort task? Russia’s shipbuilding industry has accelerated the development of hybrid being, but faced difficulties due to various reasons. In particular, the outbreak of the crisis in Ukraine, Ukraine withdrew due to work force, many of the shipyard ordered work has been greatly affected.
Why not buy it from China? China in particular is very close to the Russian warships requirements. Pacific Fleet escort lack of strength solutions are likely to be purchased directly from the Chinese warships.
For decades, the former Soviet Union and Russia, indirectly or directly involved in the construction of Chinese People’s Liberation Army naval forces. Time flies. Now students have significantly outperformed their teacher (student surpasses the teacher), especially in the manufacturing field surface ships. Therefore, China should seek to cooperate. And strengthen Russia’s Far East Fleet beneficial to China, because they can help the Chinese navy balance with the US Navy and Japan Maritime Self-Defense forces, even get certain advantages.
At present, China has built a number of different types of surface ships. In our opinion, is the most suitable for the Russian Navy Type 054A frigate. Type 054A frigate displacement of 4050 tons, 131 meters long, 16 meters wide. Diesel engines equipped economy, 054A-type cruise speed can be up to 27, cruising distance of up to 8,000 nautical miles. Can carry 165 people. Weaponry including two for combat at sea and ashore targets four C-803 missiles launchers, 32 red flag -16 Unai missiles, PJ26 type 76 mm automatic gun, two 730-type 30 mm rapid-fire guns recent anti-system , three 324 mm triple tube torpedo launchers and six anti-submarine rocket type device two 240mm mortar fire of. Has a hangar and can accommodate a card -28 or straight -9C apron.
Type 054A frigate cause why Russia attention? There are several main reasons. First, Northern Design Bureau in St. Petersburg involved in the manufacture of this type of warship. Secondly, they are equipped with weapons and electronic equipment, such as a red flag -16 and PJ26 is based on the development of Russian weapons, that is, Russia can easily replace with domestic products. And according to reports, 054A also equipped with Russia’s CIM-335 sonar systems. Third, there is no doubt 054A type of ship performance, such as weapons systems, stealth, airworthiness and endurance are in line with the requirements of modern frigates. They are to and from the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean, Atlantic, Mediterranean and Black Sea waters illustrious warships. Finally, in last year’s “joint maritime -2014” exercise, with Russia are good, “Varyag” and other warships were to collaborate with and, simply put, they can be well integrated into the Russian fleet, You can quickly adapt to the environment in Russia.
Given the rapid development of China’s shipbuilding industry, to 2018-2020 years ago the Russian Pacific Fleet can get 8-12 Type 054 frigate. This will significantly enhance Russia’s position in the region, and for the more advanced Russian-built ships provided the conditions.
Original link: http://war.163.com/15/0417/13/ANDIU77K00014OVF.htm

Tsavo Lion wrote:If it's accurate, ur active list has only frigates and small frigates & large ASW ships-15; corvettes & gunships-46.
Now divide their # by 3 & u'll get approx. # ready 24/7: 15/3+46/3=20.3 total. Since they r less capable, & even assuming their seakeeping is good, 2-3 times more of them r needed then DDG/CGs to escort TAKR/CVN. Let's say on average, & to be on the safe side, 6 per group: 20.3/6=3.3 CBGs can be escorted by them. Again, that's only FFGs & corvettes, most of which (if not all) r not suitable for 5-6 months cruises; only 1 in the list, Adm. Gorshkov & 3 Adm. Grigorovich + 2 ASW ships, 6 total, could act as a viable escort in the ocean zone, & their endurance is only 30 days before resupply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate

They r comparable in size to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate .

Only 1 such FFG escorts USN CVN, the rest r 1 CG & 2-3 DDGs.
By ur own data, u lose ur argument!

The August issue of Russia's National Defense Magazine has advised the country

Tsavo Lion wrote:If it's accurate, ur active list has only frigates and small frigates & large ASW ships-15; corvettes & gunships-46.
Now divide their # by 3 & u'll get approx. # ready 24/7: 15/3+46/3=20.3 total. Since they r less capable, & even assuming their seakeeping is good, 2-3 times more of them r needed then DDG/CGs to escort TAKR/CVN. Let's say on average, & to be on the safe side, 6 per group: 20.3/6=3.3 CBGs can be escorted by them. Again, that's only FFGs & corvettes, most of which (if not all) r not suitable for 5-6 months cruises; only 1 in the list, Adm. Gorshkov & 3 Adm. Grigorovich + 2 ASW ships, 6 total, could act as a viable escort in the ocean zone, & their endurance is only 30 days before resupply:

Isos wrote: Yak-141 is pretty useless for combat operations. Any other decent fighter will have superiority over it with more range and more weapons. F-35 is not far from the yak in that role, it only has better rcs and better radar.

But using them against many f-16 or f-15 or superhornets is useless spexially if you only have a few of them on your carrier

4. NIKOLAYEV large ASW ships (project 1134B) (1971 - 1979) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
5! KIROV heavy nuclear powered missile cruisers (project 1144) (1980 - 1998) - 3 ships (2 of them reserve)
6! SLAVA missile cruisers (project 1164) (1982 - 1989) - 3 ships - CG Project 23560
2. destroyers
55! KOMSOMOLETS UKRAINY large ASW ships (project 61) (1962 - 1972) - 1 ship - FFG [or is it a DDG?]
58! SOVREMENNYY destroyers (project 956) (1980 - 1993) - 5 ships (2 of them reserve) - DDG
59! UDALOY large ASW ships (project 1155) (1980 - 1991) - 8 ships (2 of them reserve)
60! ADMIRAL CHABANENKO large ASW ship (project 1155.1) (1999) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
1. board guard ships
16! MENZHINSKIY board guard ships (project 11351) (1983 - 1990) - 2 ships

TO me it looks like private opinion of a columnist in one of magazines and not any official MoD source.  No negotiations were ever carried out or even planned.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Fine, from the above quote, they have active, not counting those in reserve that need refits: 1 CGN, 3 CGs, 9 ASW/DDGs. The 2 Border Guard ships won't be escorting CVNs all the way, unless they r transferred to the VMF, & should be excluded. So, dividing by 3, they have avail. 24/7:
1/3 CGN+CG+3 ASW/DDGs, & that's across all 4 fleets.
But, for combat sustainability, 1 CBG needs at least 1 CG/N + 2-3 ASW/DDGs. So, again ur data show that they don't have enough escorts for more. In the articles I quoted, they themselves said that there isn't enough surface escorts for LHA/LHDs & SSBNs, much less for TAKR/CVNs. Have a nice day!

eehnie wrote:http://www.navypedia.org/ships/russia/ru_es.htm

Includes (mine blue, red and green part):

6. ESCORTS

1. frigates and small frigates

14. BDITELNYY large ASW ships (project 1135) (1970 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
16! REZVYY large ASW ships (project 1135M) (1975 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
19! NEUSTRASHIMYY guard ships (project 11540) (1993-2009) - 2 ships (1 of them reserve) - FFG
22! TATARSTAN guard ships (project 11661K) (2003-2012) - 2 ships - FFG
24! STEREGUSHCHIY corvettes (project 20380) (2007-) - 5 ships
25! ADMIRAL GRIGOROVICH guard ships (project 11356) (2016-) - 3 ships - FFG
26. ADMIRAL FLOTA SOVETSKOGO SOYUZA GORSHKOV frigates (project 22350)
27. GREMIASHCHIY corvettes (project 20385)
28. DERZKIY corvette (project 20386)
29. IVAN PAPANIN patrol ships [project 23550]

2. corvette size escorts

11! MPK-147 small ASW ships (project 1124) (1970 - 1985) - 1 ship
17! BURUN small missile ships (project 12341) (1977 - 1991) - 12 ships
21! KIEVSKIY KOMSOMOLETS small ASW ships (project 1124M) (1982 - 1994) - 21 ships (2 of them reserve)
23! MPK-192 small ASW ships (project 1331M) (1986 - 1990) - 6 ships
27! MRK-27 small missile ships (air cushion) (project 1239) (1989 - 1992) - 2 ships
28! ASTRAKHAN' large gun ships (project 21630) (2006 - 2012) - 3 ships
29! GRAD SVIYAZHSK missile corvettes (project 21631) (2013-) - 5 ships
30. VASILIY BYKOV patrol ships (project 22160)
31. URAGAN small missile ships (project 22800)

Ivan Gogin, 2009-18

Designation in red from:

http://russianships.info/eng/today/

This includes all the current Russian combat ships between 500 and 5000 tons except 1 of the Project 61/01090 and 2 of the Project 11351, and includes all the Russian ships under construction between 500 and 10000 tons. The author does not include still the Project 23560 in the source.

I personally do not think that ships of the Project 1144, Project 1164, Project 1155 and Project 956, not included in the previous list are totally incompatible with work as escort for Russian aircraft carriers. An escort fleet is a compromise between complementary ships, and more in the case of ships that are not multirole.

Then, not included before:

4. missile cruisers

4. NIKOLAYEV large ASW ships (project 1134B) (1971 - 1979) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
5! KIROV heavy nuclear powered missile cruisers (project 1144) (1980 - 1998) - 3 ships (2 of them reserve)
6! SLAVA missile cruisers (project 1164) (1982 - 1989) - 3 ships - CG
Project 23560

2. destroyers

55! KOMSOMOLETS UKRAINY large ASW ships (project 61) (1962 - 1972) - 1 ship - FFG
58! SOVREMENNYY destroyers (project 956) (1980 - 1993) - 5 ships (2 of them reserve) - DDG
59! UDALOY large ASW ships (project 1155) (1980 - 1991) - 8 ships (2 of them reserve)
60! ADMIRAL CHABANENKO large ASW ship (project 1155.1) (1999) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)

1. board guard ships

16! MENZHINSKIY board guard ships (project 11351) (1983 - 1990) - 2 ships


With the entire overview in front of us, it is easy to conclude that Russia has a complete and strong escort for 2 aircraft carriers even before the begin of the construction of the new ship.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Those not actually on standby & now waiting for refit/overhaul & for whatever other reasons can't be counted as ready for sea & combat, period; u must have at least 3 active units to have 1 available 24/7. That's the basics! Ur problem is that u always count them all, regardless of their class & current readiness. U might as well count all auxiliary & merchant ships of comparable tonnage too, since they can be armed & used by the VMF.
I'm tired of having to lecture u! Don't bother to reply!

Isos wrote:

F-35 weapons load is a joke compared to f-18.

Yak 141 has 4 hardpoint for weapons and another central one for tanker fuel. That's just useless.

What scenario do you take into account when you design a carrier ? Fighting some poor huys in syria armed with ak-47 or fighting against a big navy like Japan, Uk, usa or others ... I think it's the second one. All those countries have lot of fighters/bombers better than yak-141.

30 years later the main planes of Russia are still the one USSR produced. Su-57 is still not finished. Why do you think a yak-141 would have beed ready today ?

Tsavo Lion wrote:

TO me it looks like private opinion of a columnist in one of magazines and not any official MoD source.  No negotiations were ever carried out or even planned.

Who asked for the press reports? U did. No1 asked me for the official news. Info. on secret negotiations won't be avail. to us, but if they weren't, they could be conducted in the future.

Tsavo Lion wrote:I do apply it carriers, which Russia has & will have for long time to come only 1, even after upcoming 3 year refit & overhaul. Naval contingencies can arise at any time, any place on the World Ocean, hence the 3:1 ratio in calculating the # of units needed to meet them.
U can doubt & believe anything u feel like, but the laws & facts of physics, geography, naval theory, etc. will remain regardless whether u or any1 believes in them or not. Enough said.

You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to say that Russia has not escort for them.

From what i hear, the Naval command is most likely going the use the old Kiev-class as their main argument, ..
Since they've given up on the Storm and are now focusing on a more Medium Carrier, the MoD might be more inclined to give their approval, the argument could also work with the MoF, but we'll have to wait and see. IMO, it ain't gonna happen.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to  say that Russia has not escort for them.

We r using different logic & level of analysis. For 1 TAKR there r enough escorts, but currently for 1 more TAKR/CVN there r not.
Nor there's any $ to build it, otherwise they wouldn't have offered Storm CVN to India before being able to order it for their own VMF.

From what i hear, the Naval command is most likely going the use the old Kiev-class as their main argument, ..
Since they've given up on the Storm and are now focusing on a more Medium Carrier, the MoD might be more inclined to give their approval, the argument could also work with the MoF, but we'll have to wait and see. IMO, it ain't gonna happen.

IMO, they could buy back the 2 Kiev-class TAKRs now in PRC, refit, & use them for mostly training as a stopgap.
Pl. clarify: what ain't gonna happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate .
Only 1 such FFG escorts USN CVN, the rest r 1 CG & 3-4 DDGs.

These ships are in maritime sense pure hulks in China. They are used as attraction parks.

Minsk became the centerpiece of a military theme park in Yantian district, Shatoujiao (沙头角) sub-district, Shenzhen called Minsk World. However, the Shenzhen Minsk company went bankrupt in 2006, and the carrier was put up for auction on 22 March 2006. On 31 May 2006, the carrier was sold in Shenzhen for 128 million RMB to CITIC Shenzhen.
The ship was again sold to Dalian Yongjia Group, a real estate company in Dalian in North China, on 1 Jannary 2013.[6] On 3 April 2016, Chinese news reported the aircraft carrier had been towed to a new destination, Zhoushan for refit,[7] because of the decline of the number of tourists after 2006. After the refit is completed, the ship would be taken to Nantong on the Yangtse River in Jiangsu Province and moored to the west of Sutong Yangtze River Bridge as part of a new theme park that will be opened in 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Minsk
In 1996 Kiev was sold to Binhai Aircraft Park, a theme park in Tianjin, China. The concept was developed by world tourism and attraction consultant Leisure Quest International.
In August 2011, the ex-Kiev was developed into a luxury hotel after renovations costing £9.6 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Kiev#Post-service_life

Isos wrote:......
What scenario do you take into account when you design a carrier ? Fighting some poor huys in syria armed with ak-47 .....

Tsavo Lion wrote:

You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to  say that Russia has not escort for them.

We r using different logic & level of analysis. For 1 TAKR there r enough escorts, but currently for 1 more TAKR/CVN there r not.
Nor there's any $ to build it, otherwise they wouldn't have offered Storm CVN to India before being able to order it for their own VMF.

15 warships between 5000 and 10000 tons (6 of them reserve)
17 warships between 1500 and 5000 tons (1 of them reserve)
50 warships between 500 and 1500 tons (2 of them reserve)

Tsavo Lion wrote:

15 warships between 5000 and 10000 tons (6 of them reserve)
17 warships between 1500 and 5000 tons (1 of them reserve)
50 warships between 500 and 1500 tons (2 of them reserve)

How good those ships under 5000 tons can be as escorts in the "far oceanic zone" were CVNs will sail & spend up to 5-6 months?
A: they r more of a burden than an asset, considering that even bigger FFGs will be less than adequate for some threats:
https://topwar.ru/141831-vmf-rossii-v-shage-ot-provala-v-globalnoy-gonke-sredstv-strategicheskoy-morskoy-pro.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-05-18/1_996_atlantic.html

So, with only 9 ships now not in reserve (that # may increase or decrease in the next decade & beyond), at the top of ur list, 9/3 & 9/2 (if an exception can be made here)  =only 3-4 r ready 24/7. Again, across all 4 fleets, 2 of which r separated by 11 time zones:
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/russia

Recently they had to send Varyag CG from the Pac. Fleet to the E. Med. Sea as nothing else was available from the other 3 fleets that r separated by the European landmass; it took at least a 9-10 days to get there. The same with ships sailing from their Kola & Baltic bases.
These factors must be taken into account if u want the real world situation more accurately reflected in ur understanding of it.