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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:58 am


    Looks like Russia has been tinkering with light carrier aircraft longer than we thought and was actually on to something excellent but I guess 90s happened.

    I am pretty sure that new light fighter jet will be following this same design approach (take existing engine and radar and build aircraft around it). As for classic or STOVL/VTOL it's all possible. What matters is small size and single engine.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_S-54

    ...S-55 and S-56

    Sukhoi then modified the design to allow it to mount the same radar as the Su-27, the Phazotron Sokol. Shown in June 1997, the S-55 was a lighter, shorter-range fighter that complimented the Su-27 in the same way the F-16 compliments the F-15. Designed as a low-cost fighter, primarily for export, the S-55 was nevertheless a very advanced design compared to similar fighters that were "up-converted" from trainers.

    Sukhoi also produced the S-56, essentially an S-55 adapted for carrier use. The design was deliberately tailored for the Admiral Kuznetsov, and was designed to fit into a 10 by 3 by 3 meter space, making it one of the most compact naval fighters ever designed. The small size, especially vertically, opened the possibility of adding another internal deck between the two existing aircraft decks in the Kuznetsov, increasing the total number of fighters that could be carried by two to three times......

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 30 S-54-image4
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:16 am

    Those doubting STOVL in the Russian service should see this:

    The STOVL fighters will plug the carrier gap faster & for le$$ than bigger CATOBAR CVNs.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:46 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Those doubting STOVL in the Russian service should see this:
    The STOVL fighters will plug the carrier gap faster & for le$$ than bigger CATOBAR CVNs.  
    They are very cool toys, but toys in the end Very Happy (the Harrier was a seriously crappy plane by most accounts...)

    Just some comments:

    > What STOVL can be commissioned short term in the Russian navy???
    > Just documented some days ago why CATOBARs are not really needed, only high T/W ratio planes. Fighters are actually the smallest problem because they fit the previous requirement, the difficulty of smaller carriers actually comes with AWACS, tankers and UAV, STOVL fighters would be of no help there
    > A big carrier would take a century to be built, I agree. That doesn't mean the LHA wouldn't take 99 years...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:17 am

    A few S/VTOVL UAVs + KA-31s/tiltrotors controlling them can do the job of 4 AWACS planes normally carried on CVNs. Also, A-50/100s can be deployed to assist from nearby friendly airfields if things get really bad, together with IL-78s, tiltrotors (& for COD) &/ buddy refueling system can be used instead of S-3 like planes:
    http://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/air-to-air-refuelling/hose-and-drogue-systems/buddy-refuelling-pods/
    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19789/the-insanely-logical-case-for-turning-s-3-vikings-into-the-navys-new-mq-25-tanker-drone

    Just because they don't have some of those now, it doesn't mean that they can't/won't make them by the time their 1st UDK/LHA/D is commissioned.
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    Post  hoom Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:44 am

    Just because they don't have some of those now, it doesn't mean that they can't/won't make them by the time their 1st UDK/LHA/D is commissioned.
    You can't be serious  Rolling Eyes

    What takes way way more time & effort, with much much more performance impact:
    Putting folding wings, tailhook & strengthened undercarriage on an airframe already intended for pretty rough airstrips
    or
    Developing an entirely new, untested airframe with a complex, heavy, risk & concurrency-fest VTOL system Question

    You can say Su-33 has inferior range & payload vs US CATOBAR planes but compare it to a VTOL payload & range it looks a whole lot better.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:39 am

    I doubt their new STOVL will be much different from the Yak-141, saving them years & a lot of $ in development.
    Yak-41: Performance
    Maximum speed: 1,800 km/h (1,118 mph, Mach 1.4+)
    Range: 2,100 km (1,305 mi)
    Ferry range: 3,000 km (1,865 mi)
    Service ceiling: 15,500 m (50,853 ft)
    Rate of climb: 250 m/s (15,000 m/min) (49,213 ft/min)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-141#Specifications_(Yak-41)

    VS. AV-8B Harrier II: Performance
    Maximum speed: Mach 0.9 (585 knots, 673 mph, 1,083 km/h)
    Range: 1,200 nmi (1,400 mi, 2,200 km)
    Combat radius: 300 nmi (350 mi, 556 km)
    Ferry range: 1,800 nmi (2,100 mi, 3,300 km)
    Rate of climb: 14,700 ft/min (75 m/s)
    Wing loading: 94.29 lb/(sq ft) (460.4 kg/m²)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_AV-8B_Harrier_II#Specifications_(AV-8B_Harrier_II_Plus)
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:14 pm

    If the mission is for taking out insurgents, than use S/VTOVL drones, you'll save a ton.
    If the mission is to actually protect your ships from enemy air-power, then get a damn Carrier.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:21 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:If the mission is for taking out insurgents, than use S/VTOVL drones, you'll save a ton.
    If the mission is to actually protect your ships from enemy air-power, then get a damn Carrier.

    If enemy air-power is coming after your ships then nuclear war is 5 minutes away.

    Waste of money for obsolete PR bullshit...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:11 pm

    Not necessarily, LRAShMs used against a nuclear armed power may lead to tactical nukes being used 1st, but escalation to a nuclear war is on a much higher level. The attack on USS Liberty  didn't result in nuking Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
    OTH, if say Ukraine uses her SU-27/35s against the Russians in the Azov/Black Sea, nukes r not called for to retaliate.
    Future & current hypersonic missiles won't need nuclear warheads to destroy/disable surface targets at sea- the kinetic impact + HE (high explosive) warhead alone r enough!
    TU-22M3s can carry 4 Kinzhals:
    https://iz.ru/762053/2018-07-02/tu-22m3-smozhet-nesti-do-chetyrekh-kinzhalov
    https://iz.ru/762766/ilia-kramnik/kinzhal-dlia-tushki


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:09 pm

    Funny that I, among all people in the forum, post this news, but it is what it is:

    Russia developing new launch catapults for aircraft carriers


    An electromagnetic catapult is a mechanism, which accelerates an aircraft by linear induction motors instead of steam shuttles

    Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is developing new launch systems for warplanes based on aircraft carriers, USC President Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS on Wednesday.

    "We closely follow developments in shipbuilding in the leading sea powers and do not sit idle. Work is currently underway to develop systems that can also be used on modern aircraft carriers. For example, we are working on special modifications of new aircraft launch systems," he said.

    The United Shipbuilding Corporation president did not specify the characteristics of these systems or the timeframe of their creation.

    Catapults for aircraft carriers

    Then-CEO of the St. Petersburg-based Nevskoye Design Bureau Sergei Vlasov earlier told TASS that Russia had started work to create an electromagnetic aircraft launch system (an electromagnetic catapult) for aircraft carriers.

    An aircraft launch system (a catapult) aboard an aircraft carrier is needed to accelerate radar surveillance aircraft or planes with the thrust/weight ratio insufficient for taking off from the ski-jump ramp on the carrier’s fore end.

    A steam catapult is a mechanism driven by high pressure steam. A special channel is arranged under the deck for a shuttle to move along it. The shuttle takes hold of the aircraft’s nose gear and pulls the plane. The catapult gives the plane the necessary speed for the take-off.

    An electromagnetic catapult is a mechanism, which accelerates an aircraft by linear induction motors instead of steam shuttles. This principle is used on monorail railroads.

    The work on creating a steam catapult was carried out in the Soviet Union. The new device was expected to be installed on the 7th Soviet heavy aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk that was under construction at the Nikolayev Shipyard (Ukraine). The creation of this warship was halted in 1992 and it was cut up and junked as metal scrap.

    An electromagnetic catapult is being tested aboard the US most advanced aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford. A deck-based plane was for the first time launched from it on July 28, 2017.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1011912
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:19 pm

    LMFS wrote:Funny that I, among all people in the forum, post this news, but it is what it is:

    Russia developing new launch catapults for aircraft carriers




    An electromagnetic catapult is a mechanism, which accelerates an aircraft by linear induction motors instead of steam shuttles

    Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is developing new launch systems for warplanes based on aircraft carriers, USC President Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS on Wednesday.

    "We closely follow developments in shipbuilding in the leading sea powers and do not sit idle. Work is currently underway to develop systems that can also be used on modern aircraft carriers. For example, we are working on special modifications of new aircraft launch systems," he said.

    The United Shipbuilding Corporation president did not specify the characteristics of these systems or the timeframe of their creation.

    Catapults for aircraft carriers

    Then-CEO of the St. Petersburg-based Nevskoye Design Bureau Sergei Vlasov earlier told TASS that Russia had started work to create an electromagnetic aircraft launch system (an electromagnetic catapult) for aircraft carriers.

    An aircraft launch system (a catapult) aboard an aircraft carrier is needed to accelerate radar surveillance aircraft or planes with the thrust/weight ratio insufficient for taking off from the ski-jump ramp on the carrier’s fore end.

    A steam catapult is a mechanism driven by high pressure steam. A special channel is arranged under the deck for a shuttle to move along it. The shuttle takes hold of the aircraft’s nose gear and pulls the plane. The catapult gives the plane the necessary speed for the take-off.

    An electromagnetic catapult is a mechanism, which accelerates an aircraft by linear induction motors instead of steam shuttles. This principle is used on monorail railroads.

    The work on creating a steam catapult was carried out in the Soviet Union. The new device was expected to be installed on the 7th Soviet heavy aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk that was under construction at the Nikolayev Shipyard (Ukraine). The creation of this warship was halted in 1992 and it was cut up and junked as metal scrap.

    An electromagnetic catapult is being tested aboard the US most advanced aircraft carrier Gerald R. Ford. A deck-based plane was for the first time launched from it on July 28, 2017.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1011912


    Good news. thumbsup Russia moving forward.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:12 am

    The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is probably not a good choice to do it, unless they hire outside experts. In the US, CVN builders r not involved in it, but the General Atomics is: http://www.ga.com/electromagnetic-aircraft-launch-system



    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:15 am

    It takes six-ten years to develop this catapult.

    It is more likely ten years.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:36 am

    They won't have a CVN built by 2025 anyway, if ever.
    Interestingly, China had full access to old steam catapults on HMAS Melbourne but decided not to build them for her 1st CV:
    Prior to the ship's departure for China, the RAN stripped Melbourne of all electronic equipment and weapons, and welded her rudders into a fixed position so that she could not be reactivated. However, her steam catapult, arresting equipment and mirror landing system were not removed. ..The ship was not scrapped immediately; instead she was studied by Chinese naval architects and engineers as part of the nation's top-secret carrier development program. ..The PLAN subsequently arranged for the ship's flight deck and all the equipment associated with flying operations to be removed so that they could be studied in depth. ..It has also been claimed that the Royal Australian Navy received and "politely rejected" a request from the PLAN for blueprints of the ship's steam catapult.The carrier was not dismantled for many years; according to some rumours she was not completely broken up until 2002.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Melbourne_(R21)#Decommissioning_and_fate

    In 2015, media reports stated that both an EMALS and a steam-powered catapult were constructed at the Huangdicun naval base for testing; this is thought to indicate that the Type 002 class as well as future PLAN carriers could possibly be CATOBAR carriers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme#Type_002
    https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-carrier-gets-ski-ramp
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    Post  George1 Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:10 pm

    Russian Navy should operate at least four aircraft carriers, expert believes

    The US Navy currently operates 11 aircraft carriers

    MOSCOW, July 26. /TASS/. The Russian Navy should operate at least four aircraft carriers, Scientific Head of the Krylov State Research Center Valery Polovinkin told TASS on Thursday.

    The Russian Northern and Pacific Fleets "should have aircraft-carrying ships by definition," the expert noted.

    "Simple arithmetic shows that a ship cannot constantly stay in operation and should undergo various types of maintenance, repairs and so on. So, even theoretically, there should be at least two ships per region," Polovinkin said.

    Speaking about the US Navy, which currently operates 11 aircraft carriers, the expert noted that the United States had an excessive number of carrier-led groups but the availability of only one aircraft carrier was a "deadlocked situation."

    This ship "won’t be able to accomplish the entire range of missions and a half of the fleet will only have to deal with protecting it," the expert said.

    "As for the displacement of the future Russian aircraft carrier, I would give the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 tonnes. This range is easy to explain: the displacement choice directly depends on the type of the ship’s powerplant and the lineup of aircraft," the Krylov Center scientific head said.

    Aircraft carriers in Russia

    The Russian Navy currently operates the sole medium-sized conventional aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov (the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser under the Russian classification). The Russian Navy has said it expects to get the promising nuclear-powered aircraft carrier by late 2030 and its displacement should be no less than 70,000 tonnes.

    The Krylov State Research Centre has developed and presented to the public at large the conceptual design of an aircraft carrier for foreign customers, which was earlier offered for the domestic fleet as well. The Project 23000 was called Shtorm (Storm). The conceptual design envisages the aircraft carrier to displace 80,000-90,000 tonnes and feature a combined powerplant (a nuclear reactor and a gas turbine engine). The ship’s air group should comprise up to 60 aircraft.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1014893
    Nibiru
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    Post  Nibiru Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:40 pm

    Russia to build new aircraft carrier no sooner than 2030



    "The Russian factories’ technological potential allows solving any assigned task. But from my viewpoint, a new aircraft carrier won’t be built sooner than 2030-2035," Polovinkin said, adding that "no less than a decade will be required to build it, given favorable conditions."

    However, "it is inadmissible" for the Russian Navy to have a small aircraft carrier because in this case it would be able to accomplish partial missions only, lacking reconnaissance, radar surveillance and target acquisition planes, attack and air support aircraft, the expert said.

    "At the same time, I don’t support the viewpoint that Russian aircraft carriers should necessarily have their displacement similar to the displacement of US warships: 100,000 tonnes and more. The UK aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth in its gas turbine version has a displacement of about 60,000 tonnes and all the required aircraft," Polovinkin said.

    The comparatively small displacement of future Russian aircraft carriers "can be offset through radical changes in their hull’s shape," the scientist added.

    According to forecasts of Russia’s Economic Development Ministry, the construction of promising blue-water surface ships, including aircraft carriers, may be postponed until 2035 under the conservative scenario of the Russian economy’s development and a shortage of funds.

    http://tass.com/defense/1014931
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:06 pm

    Nibiru wrote:Russia to build new aircraft carrier no sooner than 2030



    "The Russian factories’ technological potential allows solving any assigned task. But from my viewpoint, a new aircraft carrier won’t be built sooner than 2030-2035," Polovinkin said, adding that "no less than a decade will be required to build it, given favorable conditions."

    However, "it is inadmissible" for the Russian Navy to have a small aircraft carrier because in this case it would be able to accomplish partial missions only, lacking reconnaissance, radar surveillance and target acquisition planes, attack and air support aircraft, the expert said.

    "At the same time, I don’t support the viewpoint that Russian aircraft carriers should necessarily have their displacement similar to the displacement of US warships: 100,000 tonnes and more. The UK aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth in its gas turbine version has a displacement of about 60,000 tonnes and all the required aircraft," Polovinkin said.

    The comparatively small displacement of future Russian aircraft carriers "can be offset through radical changes in their hull’s shape," the scientist added.

    According to forecasts of Russia’s Economic Development Ministry, the construction of promising blue-water surface ships, including aircraft carriers, may be postponed until 2035 under the conservative scenario of the Russian economy’s development and a shortage of funds.

    http://tass.com/defense/1014931

    Whi is this guy ? Does he know what "100kt and more" means ?

    UK carrier doesn't have awacs or elint planes on it. It is just an updated Kiev class.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:09 pm

    Isos wrote:Whi is this guy ? Does he know what "100kt and more" means ?

    UK carrier doesn't have awacs or elint planes on it. It is just an updated Kiev class.

    Goliath class?
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 30 8819818250_3249ce7717_o

    Design bureaus aren't decision makers,  it's all talk.

    Sh%t British designs don't mean a damn thing to future Russian designs, besides wasn't the F-35 suppose to double as some sort of AEW aircraft?
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:09 pm

    Sh%t British designs don't mean a damn thing to future Russian designs, besides wasn't the F-35 suppose to double as some sort of AEW aircraft?

    Do you really think you can do the work of a big plane full of antennas and elecronics with a crew of many people with a small f-35 and 1 pilot ?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:01 am

    That is indeed correct have said that day 1.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:47 am

    The comparatively small displacement of future Russian aircraft carriers "can be offset through radical changes in their hull’s shape," the scientist added.

    Interesting! I wonder what the guy is meaning exactly but a trimaran would be much more capable than a single hull in terms of deck and hangar optimization... Razz
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:58 am

    Whi is this guy ? Does he know what "100kt and more" means ?

    UK carrier doesn't have awacs or elint planes on it. It is just an updated Kiev class.

    The real problem is not size but presence or otherwise of a catapult system.

    As you point out the current UK carrier is just a large heavy Kiev class carrier, minus the extra weapons of course.

    The Russians are developing EM cats however which will make fixed wing AEW aircraft an option... and to be honest the primary reason for a catapult system is for AEW and AWACS types, as well as inflight refuelling aircraft to extend range and increase weapon capacity where needed.

    Interesting! I wonder what the guy is meaning exactly but a trimaran would be much more capable than a single hull in terms of deck and hangar optimization...

    Most of the pitches for trimarans that I have seen suggest one straight strip on one side for takeoffs and one straight strip on the other side for landings, but actually having conventional angled decks on each side would enable much faster take off and recovery cycles... and with EM cats the reduction in takeoff run the angled deck creates would not be significant...

    Of course it would look a little funny and the angled decks would need to be angled away from the ship so the incoming flight paths would overlap a short distance from the ship...

    The Russians have shown they are not stuck to western doctrine and have their own ideas, so I look forward to seeing what they eventually do come up with.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Most of the pitches for trimarans that I have seen suggest one straight strip on one side for takeoffs and one straight strip on the other side for landings, but actually having conventional angled decks on each side would enable much faster take off and recovery cycles... and with EM cats the reduction in takeoff run the angled deck creates would not be significant...

    Of course it would look a little funny and the angled decks would need to be angled away from the ship so the incoming flight paths would overlap a short distance from the ship...

    The Russians have shown they are not stuck to western doctrine and have their own ideas, so I look forward to seeing what they eventually do come up with.

    An advantage of double strips is you don't actually need angled deck to take off and land at the same time. This angled landing is BTW one of the most difficult feats pilots execute routinely and not having to perform it would be a major improvement in terms of safety, training needs and pilot availability.

    Angled decks both sizes would push the size of the vessel into extreme values, since you need 300 m length at least, but double width. You would go well over 100 kT. The idea would be to use the alternative layout to make smaller ships competitive with bigger, conventional ones.

    There are many possibilities and different configurations possible with the alternative layout that would beat bigger-scaled conventional ones:

    1. Take off from one strip, landing on the other.
    2. High-speed take off, with four take-off lanes at the front (sky jump) and a queue of aircraft forming after them
    3. High speed landing with both dedicated strips
    4. Long take-off runs available for lower T/W ratio aircraft (full deck length) without interfering in the landing. This would allow for a more economical approach to tankers and AEW based on fighters and/or drones. Don't know 100% if a turboprop could take off without catapult this way but I think it should be possible with sky jump, high lift design and run in excess of 250 m.
    5. Landing could be done on a longer run, reducing stress to the airframes. Additionally, using the full deck length with a sky jump in the end would significantly help to recover after failed landing attempts in two senses: if no cable gets caught, the speed and angle sends the aircraft airborne safely. If the braking is not sufficient, the sky jump adds its significant inclination to keep the aircraft on the deck.
    6. For expeditionary forces, one deck could be configured for small number of CTOL aircraft and the other reserved for helicopters
    7. Middle section of the ship could host hangars and increased number of missiles

    It would be a major endeavour to reform CVs in such way but I think it is worth every effort. Just a (admittedly) very rough proposal:

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:28 pm

    If Russians wanted to proceed with STOVL concept, they would have not sold the documentation. Yak-141 was a good plane, but couldn`t match capabilities of Su-33 or MiG-29K, not to mention Su-57! So, it`s time to proceed with CATOBAR and get fully capable carrier.

    They sold it because the americans were prepared to pay money for it.

    The Americans wanted engine technology that allowed a 90+ degree engine nozzle deflection angle with an engine operating in full AB... something they didn't have.

    (The AV-8 does not have AB).

    BTW that image posted with the carrier showing three red rings is misleading. The bottom two with the MiGs in front of them are the short take off run positiions but the long takeoff run is much further back level with the rear of the island. The rectangles in the deck for the blast deflectors for jet engines shows where the rear take off position is. It is raised to protect other aircraft on the deck from jet wash, so you put an aircraft on all three positions with all three jet deflectors up... launch the front two aircraft and drop their jet deflectors so the rear aircraft can take off, then reload the three launch positions... or just the front two if you have planes to land.

    Russians didn't pursue concept because they couldn't even afford to pay for food, not because it was inferior

    They dropped the concept because VSTOL aircraft are complicated, expensive, fragile, and offer lower performance compared with a fixed wing equivalent.

    If they had to have 20K ton ships then VSTOL is the only option. They went for 50K ton plus which makes MiG-29s and Su-27s an option.

    They tested it... the biggest problem was that a huge powerful jet engine blowing hot air down on the surface of a ship means when you get low enough and that hot air enters the engine intakes you get a sudden loss of power because the hot air has already had much of the oxygen burned out of it and it is already hot and thin so it generates an instant engine stall... the absolute last thing you want in a vertical landing.

    A rolling landing was the only real solution with relatively high forward speed to keep the intakes clear of hot air... and vertical takeoffs were pointless because they also burn too much fuel and limit payload.

    So the result is a rolling high speed takeoff and a rolling moderate speed landing... so WTF is the point making a VTOL aircraft if it never lands vertically.

    The vertical landing attempt caused an engine stall and crushed the rear fuselage spewing aviation fuel all over the deck and causing a big fire....

    VSTOL is dead in a fixed wing fighter jet.

    And they sold documentation because they were corrupt scum

    The money they made kept them afloat at a time when no one was getting paid... and has led to the west building a serious white elephant and spending trillions to do it.

    Without that the US probably would not consider the vertical take off as necessary requirement of the f35, and it would means that the F35 will become a usable airplane, instead of the current financial /technical disaster.

    Without that internal lift fan and all the internal piping for stability jets the F-35 would be a much better aircraft... potentially a 5th gen F-16... light and nimble and relatively cheap but with high performance.

    Russia cannot obtain funding for both STOVL and dedicated carrier based fighter at the same time. No money!

    They probably could... but they should not.

    I suspect for helicopter carriers they will use the Ka-52K for air defence and attack roles, but for proper air support they are better off with a Kuznetsov or larger carrier with fixed wing fighter bombers.

    They sold tech for peanuts and 30 years later they will still be doing LHD/STOVL approach Japan style (if they are lucky to get even that done)

    They also sold them an incomplete SA-12 battery and Tunguska...

    The money they made they created S-300VM and Tunguska-M1, which are significant improvements that would otherwise not have been funded.

    Hey, I think that is an interesting idea. Today's electronically scanned radars do not need the traditional AWACS dish antenna, see below this proposal for a Russian naval AWACS:

    Actually I was thinking that if the PAK DA is a flying wing then two large arrays on the wing leading edge and a large array along the trailing edge could be used as an AWACS platform. Further the bomber model could use such an enormous array for jamming and ESM functions.

    For AWACS use a simple flying wing design (folding of course) with radar antenna embedded in the aircraft skin in the leading and trailing surface edge for 360 degree scanning.

    What about CODs? Helos may not be enough, so tiltrotors will need to be developed!

    Cats will make the AWACS platform able to be quite heavy... a version for air to air refuelling that could also be converted to the transport role is fairly straight forward.

    Different roles and he was talking about resupply.

    Except that it is much more efficient to simply put resupply material in a ship that sails alongside the carrier and passes material over via crane rather more rapidly and cheaply no doubt...

    Those doubting STOVL in the Russian service should see this:

    Can't do anything a fixed wing aircraft can't do, and slower.

    Much cheaper and much less vulnerable to the biggest killer in the world of aircraft... IR guided missiles.

    (the Harrier was a seriously crappy plane by most accounts...)

    It is not a bad plane but it seriously handicapped by its propulsion... it is better than a Helo.

    It is not better than most contemporary fighters.

    A few S/VTOVL UAVs + KA-31s/tiltrotors controlling them can do the job of 4 AWACS planes normally carried on CVNs.

    No.

    A radar is all about altitude and distance... a Ka-31 operating within 200km of the Kuznetsov gives away its position... a Yak-44 can operate 500km away from the carrier and process all the information on board so it can beam information to ships and aircraft... the Ka-31 beams the information to a ship for processing and the ship then sends the information to other ships and aircraft... revealing its position...

    the Ka-31 will be visible and the ship processing its data will be visible.

    A Yak-44 could operate higher see further and process its own data.

    I doubt their new STOVL will be much different from the Yak-141, saving them years & a lot of $ in development.

    Yak-141 never entered service... those specs are estimates and projections.

    If enemy air-power is coming after your ships then nuclear war is 5 minutes away.

    Waste of money for obsolete PR bullshit...

    Yeah, because only NATO and the US have air power.

    They won't have a CVN built by 2025 anyway, if ever.
    Interestingly, China had full access to old steam catapults on HMAS Melbourne but decided not to build them for her 1st CV:

    Steam cats are high maintenance and fiddly... if you don't know what you are doing you will lose aircraft... which are expensive.

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion


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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:58 pm

    They'll need a new, bigger drydock for that. Or connect 3 separate hulls after they r built. Not sure if it could be done though with existing methods.

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