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Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB

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Post n°801

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:47 am

Yes.

The Tu-95MS16 was designed originally to carry the Kh-55SM, and carried 6 missiles on an internal rotary launcher. It carried a further ten Kh-55SM missiles on external weapon hard points, the two inner pylons had three missiles each and the two outer under wing pylons carried two missiles each for a total of 10 missiles under wing on external weapon pylons and 6 missiles internally... hence the 16 in the aircraft designation.

It seems the Kh-101 is too heavy for triple missile pylons and it is too big to fit the internal rotary launcher of the Bear so 8 Kh-101 missiles externally on four twin weapon pylons and a further 6 Kh-55SM missiles on the internal rotary launcher is its max capacity.

The Kh-55SM is the extended range 3,000km range upgrade of the Kh-55S, visible by its external conformal fuel tanks to increase range from the original missile (of about 2,500km). The other missile is the Kh-555 with a conventional warhead and a flight range of about 2,800km... none of these missiles are related to the navy missile Granat which the Club family of missiles is based upon that has a range of 2,000km in its original version.

GarryB

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Post n°802

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:02 am

Takeoff at night in full AB...

mnztr

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Post n°803

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:58 am

Wow that is super cool!! Shocked

Hole

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Post n°804

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

Hole Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:49 am

Baby can you light my fire… Cool

JohninMK

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Post n°805

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

JohninMK Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:36 am

Another reason for the "White" in the name.

kvs

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Post n°806

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

kvs Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:28 pm

GarryB wrote:P5zdHFtsjnA

Takeoff at night in full AB...

The colour reflects very efficient combustion. Not that Russia will get any credit for being ahead of western ubermenschen.
Western military jets have a distinctly more reddish hue reflecting inferior combustion and not fuel type.

kvs

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Post n°807

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

kvs Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:55 pm

So Washington is dismissing the utility of the Tu-160 because it has not "stealth" capability. Meanwhile the B-2 is supposed
to be super stealthy and will just fly into Russian air space without detection and drop gravity bombs on Russian targets.
You can't make such retardation up.

1) The Tu-160 does not need to fly over US territory to wreak its targets. It is a long-distance missile carrier and not a dumb
bomber like the B-2. So we have apples to potatoes comparison already.

2) Paint the Tu-160 with some RAM and it will be very close to the B-2. The Tu-160 cross section from the sides and front
is very small and no worse than the B-2. From the bottom, the B-2 is a huge billboard so it cannot be stealthy by definition.
The fixation on EM scatter from a few rounded contours is inane. Especially at long distances. Only arrogant yanquis
think that Russians cannot do EM scatter (antenna type) calculations for their aircraft and come up with ways to minimize
them without turning the aircraft into a flying coffin. BTW, if the F-117A was so great why has it not been replaced
and just retired?

3) Lavrov recently announced that Russian radars were tracking F-35s crossing from Iraq into Syria. Russia clearly has
long distance "stealth" aircraft detection ability and the B-2 will never fly over Russian soil without being detected and
blown out of the sky first.

GarryB

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Post n°808

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:08 am

The US is an empire so its thought processes are different and not rational.

For a US planner stealth is critical because it is part of the machine keeping countries in line and part of the regime change machine that can be used to turn countries the way the US wants them to turn.... they don't want to bomb Russia or China because the blowback from such an action will obliterate the west completely... what they want is a plane they can use to hit Serbia or Syria or Iran with reduced chances of getting shot down... of course they are shitting themselves because Russian assistance to Syrian air defences and development of Iranian air defences and capabilities seems to have exceeded their expectations so a B-2 being able to fly over either Syria or Iran now seems to be a rather doubtful prospect, which is why the remaining B-2s and indeed B-1Bs seem to be on the verge of being replaced by brand new likely more expensive B-2s in the form of the B-21s, ...and the ancient B-52s made in the 1950s and 1960s... by 2050 they might get the prize of serving their country front line for 100 years, but I am not sure that is actually something to be proud of...

The Russians on the other hand want an aircraft able to attack targets deep inside the US and with 5,500km range cruise missiles on board their Tu-160s and Tu-95s that should be exactly what they will be able to do.

The US and Russian bombers are not hypersonic so by the time they get to their launch positions (for cruise missile launch or bomb release positions) the ICBMs and SLBMs and super long range cruise missiles in the case of ship launched missiles, most of the air defence capacity of each country will be severely degraded so their ability to shoot down stealth bombers and stealthy cruise missiles will be severely degraded... in fact one might argue that a B-52 carrying 5,000km range cruise missiles would be much better value for money than any B-21 they could possibly develop... but when an enemy is making a mistake.... don't interrupt them. Razz

dino00

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Post n°809

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

dino00 Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:12 pm

The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

"Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

"The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
aviation weapons," the ministry said.

https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°810

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:44 pm

dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

"Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

"The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
aviation weapons," the ministry said.

https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html

kvs

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Post n°811

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

kvs Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:17 pm

Upgrading the avionics makes these aircraft totally modern. They do not need any mechanical redesign. Stealth is BS for
a standoff missile carrier. And if any effort is made to make them "stealthy" then RAM will achieve 90% of optimum. The
type of remote detection systems used on warheads and long range aviation will detect any object in the air unless it is
tiny. Think of the size of a warhead. If they can be detected then so can any stealth air-craft. No stealth aircraft has
perfect planar reflection geometry. Over-horizon radar photons will bounce off the largest cross sectional area since they
impinge from the top and not from the sides.

The opinions of moronic US generals are a laugh riot.

mnztr

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Post n°812

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:53 pm

Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec? I am impressed!! I wonder if they will go with more compsites for the new frames, for the wingbox for example (vs Ti). When the first new frame rolls out I will be really impressed!!

dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense received two missile carriers Tu-160 after modernization

MOSCOW, April 23 - RIA News. The Russian Ministry of Defense received two modernized strategic missile carrier Tu-160 , the military department told reporters.

"Specialists of the 264 military representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov adopted two strategic missile carriers Tu-160" Ivan Yarygin "and" Vasily Reshetnikov, "the statement said.

It is noted that inertial navigation and engine control systems, as well as weapons devices using modern digital technologies, have been modernized on airplanes.

"The work will provide an improvement in the tactical and technical characteristics of aviation systems, which will increase the effectiveness of the combat use of
aviation weapons," the ministry said.

https://ria.ru/20200423/1570478814.html

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°813

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

Tsavo Lion Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:56 pm

Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec?

No- if it was, the article would've mentioned it.

JohninMK

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Post n°814

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

JohninMK Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:06 pm

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Is this the full TU-160 M2 spec?

No- if it was, the article would've mentioned it.

Quote Garry at post 776,

Tu-160M are modernised, Tu-160M2 are new build AFAIK.

mnztr

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Post n°815

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:15 am

I am not so sure even this article from Janes is clear as mud. They mention an M, and M1 an M2 and then say the M1 was avail since 2014...none of it is clear.

https://www.janes.com/article/94165/maiden-flight-for-upgraded-tu-160m-bomber

JohninMK wrote:
Quote Garry at post 776,

Tu-160M are modernised, Tu-160M2 are new build AFAIK.

mnztr

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Post n°816

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:14 am

https://southfront.org/wp-content/plugins/fwduvp/content/video.php?path=https%3A%2F%2Fsouthfront.org%2Fis-russia-overtaking-the-us-in-the-realm-of-strategic-bombers%2F&pid=1810

The vid above seems to indicate the Russians have 10 TU-160 classic, 7 TU-160M1 and the M2 is the newest standard. All current planes will be upgraded to the M2 standard and the first new build M2 will be in 2023, with 10 units being part of the first order for new airframes.

franco

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Post n°817

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

franco Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:17 am

mnztr wrote:https://southfront.org/wp-content/plugins/fwduvp/content/video.php?path=https%3A%2F%2Fsouthfront.org%2Fis-russia-overtaking-the-us-in-the-realm-of-strategic-bombers%2F&pid=1810

The vid above seems to indicate the Russians have 10 TU-160 classic, 7 TU-160M1 and the M2 is the newest standard. All current planes will be upgraded to the M2 standard and the first new build M2 will be in 2023, with 10 units being part of the first order for new airframes.

These 2 would be M1 standards IMO.

GarryB

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Post n°818

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am

It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...

George1

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Post n°819

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

George1 Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:56 pm

From bmpd also:

Comment by bmpd. We are talking about the transfer of the Russian Aerospace Forces after repairs and limited modernization at the Kazan Aviation Plant named after SP Gorbunov (KAZ) of the Tu-160 combat strategic bombers with the names "Ivan Yarygin" (serial number 07-04, previously had tail number "04 red ") and "Vasily Reshetnikov" (serial number 07-02, previously had board number" 02 red") built in 1992-1993.

Both aircraft underwent a limited modernization according to a variant conditionally (and apparently incorrectly) designated in the media as “Tu-160M1”, and including, in particular, the installation of a new navigation system K-042K-1 and autopilot ABSU-200-1, while some old systems are being removed, such as the optical sighting bombing system. Also, presumably, a number of new weapons systems were integrated, including the ability to carry 12 new strategic X-101/X-102 cruise missiles deployed on two new 6A-9A829K3 revolving rotary launchers.

The prototype of this upgrade option was the Tu-160 aircraft with the name “Valentin Bliznyuk” (serial number 02-02, tail number “19 red”), which was modernized at KAZ in 2006 (currently this aircraft is undergoing further modernization at KAZ according to the options Tu-160M).

KAZ aircraft modernized "Andrey Tupolev" (serial number 06-05, tail number "18 red", was transferred back to the VKS in an updated configuration on December 19, 2014),
"Vasily Senko" (serial number 06-02, tail number "11 red", was returned to service in January 2016) and
"Nikolai Kuznetsov" (serial number 06-01, tail number "10 red", was returned to operation in November 2016).
In addition, apparently in this configuration the aircraft “Vitaliy Kopylov” (serial number 08-03, tail number "10 red", transferred to the VKS in April 2008) and "Peter Deinekin" (serial number 08-04, began flight tests in December 2017) were completed.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4004055.html

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mnztr

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Post n°820

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:46 pm

Can they not build the center box out of composite today? If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff. I think when/if a new build emerges it will have some reengineering in it. I understand one of the big barriers and costs was creating a digital model from the old plans because it was not really possible to put into production the old way.

GarryB wrote:It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...

kvs

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Post n°821

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

kvs Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 am

mnztr wrote:Can they not build the center box out of composite today? If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff. I think when/if a new build emerges it will have some reengineering in it. I understand one of the big barriers and costs was creating a digital model from the old plans because it was not really possible to put into production the old way.

GarryB wrote:It is hard to keep track, there has been talk of upgrades to unify systems and engines and weapons since the 1990s, but new builds and completing two aircraft that were in the process of being built were not an option earlier because there was no way to build them.

The centre box structure is Ti, and needs to be wielded in a near vacuum.... which requires specific facilities that only existed in the Ukraine where they were originally made.

The decision to go ahead with the PAK DA which presumably also has large sections of Ti means they can make new Tu-160s as well.

Wielding large sections together is a good thing in terms of strength and also RCS because it eliminates visible joints from the radar return... which reduces the number of visible corners.

I suspect these new planes are likely just previously built models going through the upgrade process rather than new builds and that by the time they start serial production all the older model planes will be upgraded to this standard...

The new frames are made out of Aluminum. There is no hang-up in their production. Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
back to the Soviet era.

mnztr

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Post n°822

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:59 am

kvs wrote:

The new frames are made out of Aluminum. There is no hang-up in their production. Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
back to the Soviet era.

If you can replace some of the TI with AlLi and composite, you can probably end up with a cheaper and more effetive plane.

GarryB

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Post n°823

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

GarryB Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:45 am

Composites are amazing and can be used for all sorts of things, but the centre box section that holds the swing wing mechanics needs to be rigid and strong and not a failure point...

Even if you could you wouldn't...

A bit like taking a carbon fibre formula one car and wondering if you can make the engine out of carbon fibre too... they might end up making motors with high temperature ceramic parts but not carbon fibre...

If they wre gonna invest, may as well go with the latest stuff.

I am pretty sure they are doing everything they can to stretch the boundaries, but certain ideas are just not practical yet.

The new frames are made out of Aluminum. There is no hang-up in their production. Potentially there is some issue for the unfinished frames dating
back to the Soviet era.

Have not heard that. Even if they are making the new structures out of Al or Al alloys, they now have a forge that allows them to wield enormous sections together... and I am pretty sure they would not have done that just to finish two airframes only.

If you can replace some of the TI with AlLi and composite, you can probably end up with a cheaper and more effetive plane.

Doesn't really work like that.. AlLi is certainly lighter than steel but Li is not cheap and nor is Al... and while Ti is not cheap either it is very light and very strong.

The BMD series was made from Al because it was light and improved structural integrity.

What I mean is that to get the BMD to the same weight with steel it would be too thin to be effective as armour. A 9mm thick sheet of steel might weigh the same as a 25mm thick sheet of Al, but the Al is structurally stronger if it is 25mm thick than the same structure shape made of thinner sheets of steel.

mnztr

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Post n°824

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

mnztr Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:09 am

Composites are incredibly strong, there is really no limit to how rigid they can be.Ti is actually not the most rigid metal, although its properties are very desirable. AlLi is more expensive then AL but not even close to Ti. Here is an example of a composite wing box:

http://www.jeccomposites.com/knowledge/international-composites-news/single-piece-composite-centre-wing-box-aircraft

If you look at the surplus available in the TU-160, if the new airframe weighs even 10T more, who cares!! The plane has an incredible payload/range etc. In either case I hope they will tell us about some of the change and any of the compromises they make to bring production back on line.

JohninMK

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Post n°825

Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

JohninMK Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:57 pm

mnztr wrote: In either case I hope they will tell us about some of the change and any of the compromises they make to bring production back on line.

Probably regarded as a state secret.

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