Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

PhSt wrote:

Daniel_Admassu wrote:

Kiko wrote:

I keep wondering....didn't the test prototype engine have a serrated nacelle? What happened to that?

True, the mock up that was shown in 2012 includes this feature

What about the one on the IL-76 testbed? I can almost swear I saw a picture. No?

Russia wants to sell airplanes. It cannot afford to keep absorbing sanctions. The world economy is all connected. Russia has more power than its letting on.

You are quite right but the problem is that the power is fickle.

The international currency of trade was the US dollar, but now it is probably the Euro.

The Russians and the Chinese and other countries have been talking about using different currencies than the US dollar for decades, but never actually did a lot about it... until the US started swinging its dick and using US dollars and sanctions...

The US had enormous power and a rather nice income selling US dollars to countries who wanted to trade internationally.... but using that power to try to get what they wanted resulted in breaking the system that was terribly skewed in their favour and breaking the system that was of benefit to them and no one else really.

Russia adding an extra tariff on TI sales to US companies will just lead to other companies buying Russian Titanium products than then selling it on to American companies for slightly less than the Tariff cost and making a nice profit for themselves.

Russia wont get any extra money whether there is a tariff or a ban, and a minor increase in costs for Boeing... and they will just charge the US Taxpayer more for what they do but now they can blame Russia.

And yes. A tax or surcharge on over flights specifically because of MS-21 sanctions is how they should approach it. They could even just surcharge Boeing airplanes. Russia's aviation industry cannot afford any more sanctions. It's a difficult enough industry without sanctions

Maybe a sanctions tariff where airlines that don't currently have any sanctions imposed on Russia pay normal fees, and reduced fees if flying Russian airliners, while airlines whose home country has sanctions and fly non Russian airliners might have to pay rather more... or in some cases lose overflight access till one or the other changes.

That is non-functional eye candy. If they were worried about drag around the engine shell then they would put dimples in it
or something to disrupt the formation of a laminar boundary layer and create a turbulent one instead.

I don't agree... the outer jagged edge would be the bypass cold air and the inner jagged edge would be the hot air going through the core of the turbojet portion of the engine.

They should create turbulence that helps to mix the outer cold airflow with the inner hot airflow.

GarryB wrote:

That is non-functional eye candy. If they were worried about drag around the engine shell then they would put dimples in it
or something to disrupt the formation of a laminar boundary layer and create a turbulent one instead.

I don't agree... the outer jagged edge would be the bypass cold air and the inner jagged edge would be the hot air going through the core of the turbojet portion of the engine.

They should create turbulence that helps to mix the outer cold airflow with the inner hot airflow.

If the idea is to somehow increase the pressure drop from the head of the annular bypass channel to the exhaust
end, then that sort of mixing will happen too far down the wake to matter.

[quote="GarryB"]

The international currency of trade was the US dollar, but now it is probably the Euro.


The US had enormous power and a rather nice income selling US dollars to countries who wanted to trade internationally.... but using that power to try to get what they wanted resulted in breaking the system that was terribly skewed in their favour and breaking the system that was of benefit to them and no one else really.


Maybe a sanctions tariff where airlines that don't currently have any sanctions imposed on Russia pay normal fees, and reduced fees if flying Russian airliners, while airlines whose home country has sanctions and fly non Russian airliners might have to pay rather more... or in some cases lose overflight access till one or the other changes.

The US$ is still there as number 1. It is SWIFT that is the US's main tool of sanction enforcement and alternatives are appearing but seem to be only used when necessary.

You put your finger on what is probably the biggest strategic error ever made. By using the stick rather than the carrot the US is losing the unbelievably valuable role of the $ as reserve currency and few in Washington have any clue as to what is happening. All its predecessors with that role had it taken away. In contrast, by its own decisions and arrogance, the US gas giving it away.

Very interesting idea there Garry. It would be the Asian airlines that would come out winners and it would really piss off the West. Might even give European governments some balls to do something.

(off topic post )
If just one more sovereign did a Russia (top 5 economy divested of USD and invested in Euro and gold) it would be over for the USD. All it would take is Brazil. Brazil is the 4th largest holder of US dollar debt. If it rotated into gold and Euro , the USD willys I would fall 40% and the whole game would unwind.

This is what's so annoying about China. China is by far the biggest holder of USD debt especially when you include Taiwan and Hong Kong. But China decided to jump in bed with the US. So it's not that easy to unwind. It will regardless eventually because the US is spending too much

There is nothing proprietary about SWIFT. It is a clunky analog piece of shit. Everyone just used it in the interest of networking and cooperation. Even Russia was ok with using it as long as it was fair. But it's not fair anymore and that defeats the purpose of it.

China thought it was above getting the Russia treatment. But it's not any longer. Now Turkey and India are getting abused by the US through swift. It's only a matter of time. And Russia has a ten year head start. The Euro is 1.20+ , gold is $1800. Russia has already made good money on this strategy.

Saddam Hussein did the same thing in the year 2000. And all the experts said that he would lose money on it. But he didn't. Iraq made good on its rotation to the Euro. But Iraq didn't have nukes. So we know what happened

https://www.rferl.org/a/1095057.html

With Iraq now set to begin oil transactions in euros as early as next week, President Saddam Hussein has clearly made up his mind that banning the dollar is worth flying in the face of financial logic. The euro reached record lows last week as it traded at 82 cents to the dollar, down 30 percent since its launch in January last year. Currency traders say they don't expect a rebound soon. (the Euro went from .80 to 1.45 in the years after)

The calculation has set analysts scrambling to find where Baghdad sees the payoff.

Pierre Shammas, a Middle East expert at the Cyprus-based Arab Press Service, calls the move an emotional one impossible to understand on economic grounds. 

Might even give European governments some balls to do something.

The thing is that Europe is so closely tied (up) to the US if you gave them balls they would likely just play soccer.

They don't know what standing up for their own people even means anymore because the US is mother and mother knows best...

Rather sad really... but at least their money has actual value and is not just printed monopoly money.

If the idea is to somehow increase the pressure drop from the head of the annular bypass channel to the exhaust
end, then that sort of mixing will happen too far down the wake to matter.

I don't agree that it wont help mixing the cold and hot air... I am just baffled as to why they would bother to engineer such a feature on a civilian engine... I don't see the value of rapidly mixing the hot air with the cold air from the engine...

Just seems a little pointless unless it effects the noise levels from the hot air stream... reducing noise perhaps?

The US$ is still there as number 1.

You sure... I remember a while back a headline suggesting the Euro had passed the dollar in international trade... perhaps they included non SWIFT trade as well?

Threats to kick Russia out of SWIFT has also undermined that as well, which is a bit presumptuous considering they don't own it... though most of the other members are their bitches...

There is nothing proprietary about SWIFT. It is a clunky analog piece of shit. Everyone just used it in the interest of networking and cooperation.

Like Twitter or Facebook or Whatsapp... you go on it because your friends are on it.... ( I am not on any of those BTW). They are not special or amazing and anyone else could come up with something similar and they do... but the problem is to get enough people on there to make it viable as a real alternative.

Saddam Hussein did the same thing in the year 2000. And all the experts said that he would lose money on it. But he didn't. Iraq made good on its rotation to the Euro. But Iraq didn't have nukes. So we know what happened

That was a real pattern wasn't it... drop the dollar... get invaded... Iraq and Syria and Libya too...

Can't remember anyone mentioning this problem before. Looks like 5G mast banned areas around airports.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9266765/5G-smartphones-interfere-CRITICAL-aircraft-instruments-authority-warns.html

Interferes with Altimeters and the undercarriage?

Sounds like they need to get the avionics companies to start working with the 5G people to sort this out... this is pretty damn basic stuff that they should have take into account during development of the 5G stuff.

In France? ...interesting I thought there were all sorts of standards and regulations that are created to prevent this sort of thing... I rather suspect the EU regulations are too focused on trying to ban Russian plane engines on noise and emissions that they forgot the purpose of their role....

Wonder if there were problems with all aircraft, or just some types....

Placeholder

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/bugaev/kak-superdjet-idet-k-uspehu-5fbd3e199e8324570589549e

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/united-flight-328-experiences-loud-bang-giant-metal-engine-part-falls-front-yard

For context and reference.

https://ria.ru/20210221/samolet-1598456514.html

ABU DHABI, 21 Feb - RIA Novosti. The UAE Sovereign Fund Mubadala and the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will establish a joint venture to develop a supersonic passenger aircraft. This was announced by the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov .
"The question is what kind of equity participation it will be, while we have not yet approached this issue. From the Emirate side it will be Mubadala, from our side it will be clear that it will be the UAC, possibly some of its subsidiaries," the minister said.

The developers plan to determine what the plane will look like by the end of 2021 - early 2022, he added.

"The main parameters, in my understanding, are 80 percent laid out: this is a speed of Mach 1.5-1.8. Moreover, at a speed of Mach 1.8 you can fly at least four hours. As for the version, we are talking about an eight-seat VIP car and a 30-seater passenger car, "- said Manturov.

In January 2018, Vladimir Putin proposed making a civilian version of a supersonic aircraft based on the Tu-160 strategic missile carrier . The United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) took up the task.

In September 2018, the Tupolev company announced the completion of pre-design work. At the same time, it was reported that Russia did not have the power plant necessary for such an aircraft; the NK-32 engine did not fit.

So if the NK32 doesn't fit it and it needs a whole new engine this doesn't seem very viable? Wouldn't they then need to spend a decade on development and testing of a new engine? Is there another engine that would be suitable. I can't see them using AL series engines or the like.

Can't they use a modfied RD-33? This plane will not really need the thrust to weight ratio of mig-29.

mnztr wrote:Can't they use a modfied RD-33? This plane will not really need the thrust to weight ratio of mig-29.

i do not believe the RD-33 is made to propel the aircraft at supersonic speed for hours, just for short time (and using reheat).

Furthermore such military engines do not meet the requirements for emissions and noise set for civilian flights.

But of course all the experience in supersonic engines Russia has is extremely important and will be used.

It is highly possible that some preliminary work on a few potential architectures for the engine has already been done.

Nevertheless there will be several years work ahead to actually realize it. Probably Russia wants to get some investment to finance the R&D, some technology improvements could then be used also for other applications (both military and civilian subsonic flights).

And at the same time see the interest of potential buyers... if rich arabs with their business jets can help finance

There is no hurry to come with a supersonic business jet in 2023 anyway, even having something by 2030 will be an excellent news.
Q
By the way, maybe they could reuse something from the (first Soviet, then) Russian/American project sukhoi gulfstream s21

But possibly the engines there were a derivative of the soloviev D30 low bypass turbofan, and they would not be acceptable with the current civilian regulations...

Possibly a good starting point could be the core of the PD engines series, of course with totally dedicated fan, and LP systems...
http://testpilot.ru/russia/sukhoi/s/21/index_1_e.php
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi-Gulfstream_S-21

Competitive advantages of the MS-21-aerodynamic qualityç



When creating a promising aircraft for commercial use, an approach should be applied already at the preliminary design stage, which makes it possible to link market analysis, forecast of its needs, and calculation of the cost of production and operation of the aircraft into a single cycle. It is necessary to take into account the parameters of the passenger compartment and cargo compartment, the weight of the aircraft, its aerodynamic quality and speed. All this generally determines the economic and competitive advantages of the future liner.

This approach was applied at the early stages of designing the future MC-21 aircraft by the designers of the A. S. Yakovlev Engineering center of Irkut Corporation. First, the specialists evaluated the relationship of market requirements with the technical and economic characteristics of the liner, after which the technical parameters were optimized in relation to their impact on the project economy as a whole.

Various media outlets often write that the MS-21 has one of the most advanced airframe designs in the world at the moment. At the same time, the volume of composite materials used, a high value of wing elongation, a less financially expensive vacuum infusion technology compared to autoclave technology, and higher aerodynamic quality indicators than those of competitors are noted.

During the development of the MS-21, TsAGI conducted research on the aerodynamics of nine variants of the composite wing geometry. Was conducted thousands of tests, which experts recommended that the designers of the wing, having a sequence number 9. It is the high aerodynamic efficiency of the wing would do without installation for the MS-21 winglets, and leave them as a Foundation for future upgrades.

   A higher aerodynamic quality corresponds to a higher lifting force and /or lower resistance to movement.

   Aronin G. S. prakticheskaya aerodynamika [Practical aerodynamics], Moscow: Military publishing house of the Ministry of defense, 1962, pp. 68-75.

One of the main goals when creating an aircraft, designers set themselves to achieve the maximum possible value of the value of aerodynamic quality. This characteristic is determined by the ratio of lift to drag, and the required lift with a decrease in drag leads to an improvement in the fuel efficiency of the liner.

New modeling methods for the design of the MS-21 aerodynamic layout, performed on a Lomonosov-class supercomputer at Moscow state University, made it possible to achieve high aerodynamic perfection of the composite wing of large elongation — the aerodynamic quality of the new Russian airliner is 18.2. This value is the main indicator of the competitiveness of the MC-21 in comparison with aircraft of the same class of Boeing (K=15.0) and Airbus (K=16.3).

Achieving K=18.2 required many months of calculations in solving the direct and inverse problems of aerodynamic design with a limited set of optimized parameters. Based on multidisciplinary approaches, the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft were determined, which contains a fuselage, a mechanized wing with a slat and flap (taking into account all breaks), pylons, engine nacelles, slat mounts and fairings of flap extension mechanisms, and existing vortex generators on the nacelles. In addition, the engine jets were modeled, and the Reynolds partial differential equations were solved in a three-dimensional formulation in the flow problem.

   The MS-21 includes more Russian technological developments than the Superjet. This is not a copy of a Western car.

   Leeham News analyst Scott Hamilton

For such a calculation of MS-21 aerodynamics in a complex take-off and landing configuration, taking into account the operation of the power plant, grids with at least 100-150 million cells are required, and the typical calculation time for one point can be several days.

TSAGI General Director, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Sergey Chernyshev in 2017 estimated the aerodynamic quality of the MS-21 aircraft to be 7-10 percent higher than that of competitors. "Approximately the same advantage in fuel consumption. But, of course, all this must be confirmed in flight, " the TSAGI Director said in an interview with Rossiyskaya Gazeta in early January 2017.

In February 2016, Leeham News analyst Scott Hamilton wrote: "On the example of the Superjet, we have a well-designed aircraft that is equipped with Western systems. MS-21 follows the same path, but includes more Russian technological developments. This is not a copy of a Western car."

"The MC-21 clearly represents a huge step forward compared to the Superjet," said Addison Schonland, an expert at the American company AirInsight. — It is probably better than the Chinese C919, because it is produced by a company with a richer history in the industry. The Pratt & Whitney engine will allow the MC-21 to demonstrate excellent economic and technical performance, " he said.

According to him, the MS-21 should consume 10% less fuel than the A320peo and 737 MAX, but if the consumption is even at the level of competitors, then this can already be considered an excellent result.

Some weight, aerodynamic and economic characteristics of medium-haul Airliners of comparable passenger capacity: B737 MAX 8, Airbus A320neo and MS-21.



Sometimes it is suggested that the gain in wing aerodynamics will be "eaten up" by the increased diameter of the MS-21 fuselage. Sergey Lyapunov, Deputy General Director of TSAGI and head of the aircraft aerodynamics and flight dynamics complex, agrees that improvements offered by other aircraft engineering disciplines may have a negative impact on the aircraft's aerodynamic parameters. For example, the increase in comfort is largely determined by the size of the fuselage, which leads to a heavier airframe and an increase in drag.

"When developing the MS-21, the discussion was around every centimeter, the balance was found, and the aerodynamic quality of the MS-21 is exactly 5-6% higher than that of competitors, with a larger fuselage size," he said in an interview. ATO.ru Sergey Lyapunov in 2011 before the opening of MAKS-2011.

Head-on arithmetic gives a more fundamental advantage to the Russian airliner. A comparison of the DATA from the table above shows that the MS-21's aerodynamics are 21.3% better than the B737 MAX and 11.6% better than the A320neo.

Sources:

   Prospects for the development of transport aircraft. Proceedings of the Moscow aviation Institute. Issue # 90
   Supercomputer modeling in aerospace applications. Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Sergey Chernyshev, General Director of TSAGI.
   "The Russian newspaper», To tame the supersonic - interview with Sergey Chernyshev, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences, General Director of TSAGI.
   Aerodynamics of the Boeing 737 (300-900) aircraft)
   The new York times, Does the Russian MC-21 have any advantages over Airbus and Boeing?
   ATO.ru, Why there are no wingtips on the MS-21

Andrey Velichko,
for the Russian aviation website»

https://aviation21.ru/konkurentnye-preimushhestva-ms-21-aerodinamicheskoe-kachestvo/

Yeah, i read that article, and what about the next one?

I do not understand the need to involve foreign countries (not even close allies) in such production,  especially transferring to them technologies,  unless it is only used to negotiate something else (and maybe only related to the production of aircrafts ordered by Emirates or from western related airlines that could be subject to sanction anyway )

https://aviation21.ru/minpromtorg-xochet-peredat-oae-texnologiyu-izgotovleniya-kryla-ms-21/

The Ministry of Industry and Trade wants to transfer the manufacturing technology of the MS-21 wing to the UAE

02.24.2021, 18:27  1 101

Russia is interested in setting up the production of composite products by vacuum infusion in the United Arab Emirates and later placing an order in this country for the production of composite components. Denis Manturov, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, spoke about this on the sidelines of the IDEX-2021 arms exhibition in Abu Dhabi.
“We have switched to our own raw materials for the production of composite parts. And we are ready with our colleagues. We also touched upon this topic of technology transfer and consider it as additional suppliers. Taking into account the expansion and increase in production volumes, we will need to either expand capacity ourselves or attract partners ", - leads TASS words of the minister.
In 2019, the Russian delegation visited enterprises in the UAE that produce composites, and was satisfied with their quality, the minister said. Manturov specified that Russia uses a non-autoclave infusion method of production, while the UAE uses a classic prepreg method.

(...)
It is difficult to call the transfer of high-tech production to a country that is not our ally, is not a member of either the EAEU or the CIS, but is only seen as a situational partner. How profitable is it for Russia to buy finished composite products abroad? Even if they are produced using Russian technology, it will still be imports. Taking into account the increasingly complex logistics, the delivery of components to the IAP (or to Shanghai in the future) from the Emirates may lead to an increase in the cost of aviation equipment in the domestic market.
If Denis Manturov conducts such negotiations just for the sake of formality, in order to at least talk about something with the Emirati "partners" and satisfy their ambitions, then it was not worth going to Abu Dhabi and spending budget money. But, if the transfer of technology for the manufacture of power elements of the "black wing" structure is considered seriously, then this is an anti-state decision, which in the future may harm both the domestic aviation industry and Russia as a whole.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Yeah, i read that article, and what about the next one?

I do not understand the need to involve foreign countries (not even close allies) in such production,  especially transferring to them technologies,  unless it is only used to negotiate something else (and maybe only related to the production of aircrafts ordered by Emirates or from western related airlines that could be subject to sanction anyway )

The article has the same whiny tone I am already tired of reading from Russia, where everyone seems to know better than the government. UAE wants to turn into a major aerospace industry hub in Middle East, they have a prime geographical position, they have money (by now) and they want to be ready for a future where their oil is not going to buy them anything they want. They are investing heavily with Russia and partnering in VR Technologies, the light 5G fighter and others. If Russia walks further that path with them, there can be big business in the future, who says that Russia is going to give the technology for free, and buy parts for domestic production from them without further negotiation? These guys have big money, what if Emirates places a big order and produces some parts for it? The Russian industry is going to be significantly challenged to produce the amount of airframes per year they aim to...

For background (not for you that but for the rest of us):

Emirates is the world's fourth largest airline by scheduled revenue passenger-kilometers flown, and the second-largest in terms of freight tonne kilometers flown.

By now they don't have narrow bodies, but will it remain so?

The Emirates are one of the top aircraft buyers and influencers in what is a highly competitive market where every Unique Selling Point maters. To have an element of local produce in the air frame would be a very important USP to the sales team and might make all the difference in winning an order. The US will not CAATSA or sanction the UAE for buying Russian enabling a break in the Airbus/Boeing duopoly.

This could be the start. How about flying part empty aircraft in for local fit out like Airbus and Boeing do into China as the UAE has a big Shia population that needs work? How about the UAE helping Russia establish worldwide maintenance bases?

The UAE has the money. Russia has the technology and potential products but limited risk capital and limited resources spare for this kind of product. Just setting up MC21 production at a level commensurate with its potential sales will be a massive challenge. It can't do everything it wants to do, it has to prioritise, keep the high added value products and subcontract out the others.

At the extreme, Russia could put its commercial aircraft, or some of them, into a separate company and sell a chunk of it to the UAE. That would allow the UAE to move some of its assets into something that would have lasting value and the Russians to crank up production faster with someone else's money.

JohninMK wrote:The Emirates are one of the top aircraft buyers and influencers in what is a highly competitive market where every Unique Selling Point maters. To have an element of local produce in the air frame would be a very important USP to the sales team and might make all the difference in winning an order. The US will not CAATSA or sanction the UAE for buying Russian enabling a break in the Airbus/Boeing duopoly.

This could be the start. How about flying part empty aircraft in for local fit out like Airbus and Boeing do into China as the UAE has a big Shia population that needs work? How about the UAE helping Russia establish worldwide maintenance bases?

The UAE has the money. Russia has the technology and potential products but limited risk capital and limited resources spare for this kind of product. Just setting up MC21 production at a level commensurate with its potential sales will be a massive challenge. It can't do everything it wants to do, it has to prioritise, keep the high added value products and subcontract out the others.

At the extreme, Russia could put its commercial aircraft, or some of them, into a separate company and sell a chunk of it to the UAE. That would allow the UAE to move some of its assets into something that would have lasting value and the Russians to crank up production faster with someone else's money.

Yeah, there is probably some strategic thinking behind. The important thing is to let them produce components (in exchange for choosing russian aircrafts instead (or in addition to ) boeing and airbus) only for export and not for also the Russian internal market (or for countries that could be subject to international illegal sanctions, like Iran, Cuba or Venezuela) , which must be instead produced in Russia.

Cooperation that can bring mutual benefits is a smart move, as long as it does not mean to destroy the internal supply chain (as it happened to some western nations with their relocation of production in China).

If Russia moves some manufacturing to UAE it will come with come strings, Russian planes, CR 929 tailored to the needs of Emirates with a large order. They can sell MC-21 to Flydubai.

BTW is the P&W engine now sanctioned ?

^Its hard to tell exactly what the situation is with Pratt and Whitney. The Air Current described the venture as "on life support" because of sanctions.

I think this collaboration with the UAE is great news and its less suspicious than the collaboration with China. This will help balance the relationship with China.

mnztr wrote:If Russia moves some manufacturing to UAE it will come with come strings, Russian planes, CR 929 tailored to the needs of Emirates with a large order. They can sell MC-21 to Flydubai.

BTW is the P&W engine now sanctioned ?

i believe it is not sanctioned, but that is mainly because Russia has a domestic alternative now. Sanctioning it would only cause a mild delay (and a lot of losses for pratt&withney)

What do you guys think about this article about the cr929? Apparently the author is skeptical about it being credible competition to the airbus neo and Boeing 787 simply due to have 1500 to 2000km less range. Meanwhile he ignores stuff like ease ofaintenance, passenger comfort and fuel economy. Is squeezing out every last km really that important for widebodies, or is the author grasping at straws?

https://simpleflying.com/cr929-airbus-boeing-challenge/amp/

limb wrote:What do you guys think about this article about the cr929? Apparently  the author is skeptical  about it being credible competition to the airbus neo and Boeing 787 simply due to have 1500  to 2000km less range. Meanwhile he ignores stuff like ease ofaintenance, passenger comfort and fuel economy. Is squeezing out every last km really that important for widebodies, or is the author grasping at straws?

https://simpleflying.com/cr929-airbus-boeing-challenge/amp/

It can't be competitive lol? I didn't read the blogger-blabber, but the cost of production in both Russia and China is more cost effective than in the US or the EU. On the fact alone the author is an idiot. Cr929's will be cheaper than their Western competitors.