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TOR Air Defence system

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40541
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Post n°51

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:51 pm

Also third generation thermal imagers are much smaller and more compact because they don't need to be cooled down to cryogenic temperatures to operate properly.

They found with the small optics ball on the Mi-28N that 3rd gen thermals were easier to use than image intensifiers... note the small optics ball is for the pilot while the larger drum shaped system is for the gunner.

medo

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Post n°52

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:58 pm

Let us hope we will soon see more clear pictures of optics, specially of domestic ones.

GarryB

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Post n°53

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:33 pm

AFAIK FELIN includes a medical system that measures the health of the soldier, perhaps when their heart stops the system cuts them out?

In a vehicle... something similar with a kill switch.

Of course a sophisticated enemy doesn't need to kill or capture anyone as the amount of datalink broadcasts it should be easy to find threats...

I would think the value of having detailed info about your own area to support your decision making process warrant the risk, though I agree that information security would have priority.

It must be kept in mind that the information flows both ways so individual soldiers can point their rifles at targets and send the video image to HQ without firing to add to information about the enemy and their positions etc etc.

TheArmenian

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Post n°54

Re: TOR Air Defence system

TheArmenian Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:00 pm

medo wrote:Excellent picture of Belarus Tor-M2. I hope there will soon be pictures of Russian Tor-M2U that we could see if Russian Tors are wheeled or tracked ones.

Do they still have only old TV camera?

This video clip of the handover might contain the answer you are seeking.
Please share your finding(s) with us.

medo

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Post n°55

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:26 pm

On the video Belarus Tor-M2 have the same TV camera as Tor-M1. Up to now we still didn't see any picture of domestic Tor-M2U. It is a little different, because it have more missiles in launcher than export Tor-M2 and maybe in its electronics too, so it could have different optical system.

medo

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Post n°56

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:01 pm

http://ria.ru/arms_news/20120716/700683482.html

To the end of 2012 Eastern military district will receive new Tor-M2U systems. It's interesting, that there is still no pictures of Tor-M2U although last year South military district receive them.

medo

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Post n°57

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:49 pm

http://vpk.name/news/73812_v_eiske_zaversheno_pereuchivanie_podrazdelenii_pvo_obshevoiskovogo_soedineniya_vvo_na_zrs_torm2u.html

AD crews from eastern military district are ending their course for Tor-M2U and at the end of August they will have live firings in Kapustin Yar.

TR1

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Post n°58

Re: TOR Air Defence system

TR1 Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:37 pm

medo wrote:http://ria.ru/arms_news/20120716/700683482.html

To the end of 2012 Eastern military district will receive new Tor-M2U systems. It's interesting, that there is still no pictures of Tor-M2U although last year South military district receive them.

Are we sure they actually received them, and it wasn't "Going to receive" type of news?

medo

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Post n°59

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:45 am

The news were, that in December 2011 they received them in Volgograd region. But until we see clear picture of army Tor-M2U, there is no certain confirmation. There will be a chance to picture them on firings.

TheArmenian

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Post n°60

Re: TOR Air Defence system

TheArmenian Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:09 pm

Below are photos of an OSA (SA-8 Gecko) short range SAM system of the Armenian Army during exercises.
In the second photo, one can see the optical tracking device which I believe is an addition/modernization of the system.
The last photo is interesting because it is quite rare to see a picture of the optical tracking screen on a Russian SAM.

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 11482398

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 11482398

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 42468500

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 91991401

medo

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Post n°61

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:46 pm

I think TV sight on Armenian OSA is standard one, like the one in the link.

http://oaotranscom.ru/televizionnoopticheskiivizir

There is also modernized version 9Sh38M, which also have II tube inside for night operations.

http://forums.airbase.ru/2011/09/t83098,4--istoriya-razrabotki-zrk-osa.html

GarryB

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Post n°62

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:22 am

I always liked the Wasp.

It always seemed to me to be a neat little vehicle.

At one stage AGAT put out a small ARH seeker... like a mini R-77 seeker and they said it was for short range missiles... AAM and SAM and I thought that fitting a small compact ARH seeker to the SA-8 or SA-15 missiles would be interesting. Along with fitting them to R-73s for helos and light attack aircraft.

New digital electronics and more compact radar systems would certainly make the OSA interesting.

TheArmenian

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Post n°63

Re: TOR Air Defence system

TheArmenian Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:48 am

Can the optical system be used to guide the missile to the target and hit it without the use of radar? or do you still need to use the radar to guide the missile to the target?

GarryB

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Post n°64

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:08 am

There are two radar, one is a search radar and the other radar is the tracking radar.

Shockingly enough the search radar searches for targets... it is a sophisticated and expensive 3D model, and the tracking radar has two functions... tracking the targets and outgoing missiles, the guidance commands are sent via datalink to the missile.

Using optics, I rather suspect it would use SACLOS guidance with the optical tracking of the missile and target with course corrections being transmitted via the data uplink.

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 Zrk-to10

TOR Air Defence system - Page 3 Zrk-to10

medo

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Post n°65

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:06 pm

TheArmenian wrote:Can the optical system be used to guide the missile to the target and hit it without the use of radar? or do you still need to use the radar to guide the missile to the target?

Optical system doesn't need tracking radar for missile guidance. Some systems have IR missile locator or in Osa guiding complex have small missile tracking radars to locate positions of missiles. Special radio antenna than send missile guiding signals to the missile.

GarryB

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Post n°66

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:50 am

Very simply... the TOR missiles are not radar guided missiles.

The TOR system uses radar to find targets and to track the targets and the outgoing missiles and it calculates guidance commands and command guides its missiles via a datalink.

In other words the missiles are command guided, and the target and missile tracking can be by radar or by optics.

The Pantsir-S1 and Tunguska are actually the same, they both can track targets using radar and use a datalink to direct their missiles to the target, or they can use optics to track the target and the datalink to direct the missiles to that target.

Note the Pantsir-S1 can direct 1 missile via optical guidance and 3 missiles via radar tracking at one time, so it can optically track one target and one missile and radar track 3 targets and 3 missiles at once...

TheArmenian

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Post n°67

Re: TOR Air Defence system

TheArmenian Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:46 pm

So, in optical mode the system will operate much like an antitank missile, except that the target is moving faster than a tank and the SAM is flying faster than an antitank missile.

But you still have to detect the target first. This can of course be done by using the acquisition radar of the system or by information fed from the IADS or simply another radar. The target can also be detected by observers.

My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

Viktor

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Post n°68

Re: TOR Air Defence system

Viktor Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:16 pm

TheArmenian wrote:
My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

You could use optical system for detecting targets most likely but given its field of view its most likely you would get bombed hundred times before detecting even one target. You will most likely use you search radar to find targets, that tracking will do optical system and search radar turned off.

medo

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Post n°69

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:28 pm

So, in optical mode the system will operate much like an antitank missile, except that the target is moving faster than a tank and the SAM is flying faster than an antitank missile.

Yes, in optical mode the system operate in same SACLOS princip as antitank missiles.

My next question is: can the Osa's optical system be used for scanning and detecting targets or is it strictly for tracking the targets whose coordinates have been provided by its own detection radar (or another source) ?

Of course it could, if radars are broke or any other reason, but very slim chances to find something. Usually SAMs inside battery cover given sector and if Osa have to find targets optically, than it is better if commander open his roof hatch and observe given sector with his binoculars. Better chances to find something.

GarryB

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Post n°70

Re: TOR Air Defence system

GarryB Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:34 am

A radar unit does not generally operate alone, it should have feeds of info from the unit command and a central command.

In a unit of say 6 vehicles you wouldn't need 6 radars operating all the time... with the vehicles spread out... a few hundred metres apart, you could coordinate it so one vehicle will search for 30 seconds and then shut down... and pass the information it collected to the other vehicles and then another vehicle in the unit will scan for 30 seconds and then shut down. Any targets detected in this way can be allocated to individual vehicles to optically search for, or as Medo suggests the commander of a vehicle could stick his head out the hatch and use binoculars... or perhaps just listen for a few seconds.

Much of the time the unit will get advanced warning of targets entering their sector and the general direction of their approach and their altitude, which makes searching easier.

With a modern upgrade digital video systems with thermal imaging greatly improves optical performance and adds features like auto scan and auto track. Different zoom performances should allow large areas of the sky to be scanned.

Some systems like Phoenix use 360 degree IR scanning which should be able to be automated and fairly effective at detecting incoming threats without emissions.

Other options include the small box antennas often seen on the SA-13 SAM system that includes systems to detect the low power dopplar radars used by low flying aircraft and missiles used to avoid hitting the ground during low altitude flights at high speed in the dark or bad weather.
Such systems could also be used to detect the MMW radar emissions of long bow apaches.

medo

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Post n°71

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:13 pm

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/11/27/thor/

Southern military district in Volgograd region receive first batch of Tor-M1-2U. They will replace Osa and old Tor. I wonder if this is actually Tor-M2U and is just journalist lapsus or they are M1 modernized to M2 level. Considering its search radar have 30 km range, could simultaneously engage 4 targets and reach 10 km altitude (15 km range), than this is most probably Tor-M2U.

Cyberspec

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Post n°72

Re: TOR Air Defence system

Cyberspec Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:23 pm

medo wrote:if this is actually Tor-M2U and is just journalist lapsus or they are M1 modernized to M2 level

Looks like they're upgraded Tor-M1's. From the MOD website

http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11493486@egNews

P.S

According to the chat on Russian forums, the TOR-M1-2U is an upgrade that uses elements from the TOR-M2U. Apparently the developers of the TOR-M2U need to fix some faults that were detected during the trials. It's expected to enter service in 2013. Also, it's said to differ significantly from the export TOR-M2E

George1

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Post n°73

Re: TOR Air Defence system

George1 Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:17 am

The troops of the southern military district received new air defense systems Tor-M1-2U "

The first shipment of anti-aircraft missile systems (SAMS) Tor-M1-2U "entered service with the army of the southern military district (ÛVO), said Tuesday the journalists zamnača
l′nika ÛVO press service Col. Oleg Kochetkov.

The first consignment of Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "troops entered the southern military district. By the end of this year the AAMS will consist of air defense force unit in the Volgograd region, "said Kochetkov.

According to him, the new AAMS Tor-M1-2U "went into service in the framework of the State Defense order. The system will replace the standing armed with missile short-range "Osa", "Tor" and "Tor-M1".

Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "is intended to attack aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicle aerodynamic, guided missiles and other precision weapons, flying at medium, small and extremely low altitudes. The system is capable of hitting four targets simultaneously at a height of up to 10 kilometers. Its crew consists of three people.

"The complex applied on-board small aerial target detection station, which allows you to discover and manage up to several dozens of air targets in the zone more than 30 kilometers. In addition, electronic equipment new ANTI-MISSILE WEAPON lets you choose the level of risk, "suggesting" combat sequence of calculation of shelling, "said Kochetkov.
Tor-M1 MISSILE SYSTEM-2U "is capable of providing air defence units and facilities cover day and night, in all weather conditions, in addition, the system features high jamming immunity.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=487671814627138&set=a.289548557772799.66899.145866335474356&type=1&relevant_count=1

collegeboy16

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Post n°74

Re: TOR Air Defence system

collegeboy16 Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:06 am

So how much does one 9m330 missile cost? the 57e6?

medo

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Post n°75

Re: TOR Air Defence system

medo Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:47 pm

http://redstar.ru/index.php/component/k2/item/6332-na-ohrane-vostochnyih-rubezhey

Russian army in Eastern military district received in 2012 new S-400, Pantsir and Tor units. It seems they have those Tor-M2U they talked about in summer.

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