Decline of the western society #2

kvs wrote:

Another gem of western artistic "progressivism".  

The clown "artist" yapping about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle would have had something to say if had devised an experiment how
to exert a force against the virtual particle sea and thus enable non-reactive propulsion.    That would have been something of value
and merit.   Sticking a finger in his nose and pulling out an "intellectual" goober is not art or anything other than shysterism.  

Yeah this one was wild, but not unexpected at this point.

It is literally the emperors new clothes, but the morons are too stupid to see they are the butt of the joke.

It is literally sarcasm at what Art has become and how easy it is to fool so called experts.

The irony is that the working people would never spend their hard earned dollars on crap like this, but the rich for whom money seems to come rather too easily will piss away large portions of their income on a gamble that some day it might be worth much more than they pay for it now.

To reinforce that you look at the history of art and many of the most expensive pieces sound like they sold for peanuts, but the amounts they went for early on were a rather expensive luxury item at the time so not much has really changed except the value is in the eye of the beholder... or as proven by this example... the moron.

If you can convince people the worn out car body in your front garden is a masterpiece and then sell it for tens of hundreds of times what it cost you when you bought it, then good on you, and how stupid are they?

It is the equivalent of someone also wearing nothing standing next to the emperor and having a chat about which hemline height is most appropriate after someone in the crowd has already pointed out they are both stark bollock naked.

This is obviously nothing... who will start the bidding?

@Garry: how about paying 100000 "invisible" USD for that. Such a high-tier sculpture requires equally high-tier money for it.

I heard an opinion that the West is falling to its own heresies, that it has introduced and created itself. That it has no spiritual basis and cannot defend against new destructive ideas.

I'd rather say that this is all a product of the economic centre of power shifting to Asia and of various major and petty elites all playing off and competing against one and the other as the gravy train starts to shrink each year.

But either way the conclusion is the same. The West has expanded too much, the English language has been learned by too many people around the world, it has interest groups and lobbies from too many countries, destabilizing competition from all its aggressive diasporas. And it simply has no means by which to unify everyone and reject all the poisonous narratives. It has no unifying religion, nor is it able to unify everyone in the generation of wealth either (actually these two things develop hand in hand). The result is simply a rupture along every seam.

I mean what could possibly save the situation now? The Western elites have been trying LGBT-culture, ecology, SJWism and all this stuff as a new unifying ideology, but the result is that it has only accelerated the process. The result has been the development of widespread cynicism, and the SJW/LGBT/ecowarrior/BLM crowd are hardly satisfied with the concessions to them to date either.
It's hard to see how some new emperor can emerge and simply consolidate everyone under his ideas and leadership. For sure, creepy Biden is not the candidate.

Is this Rome 1st century BC on the brink of the civil war, or Rome 5th century AD under the assault of the barbarian invasions that would ultimately destroy it? That is the interesting question.

Yeah you see stuff like this, and you really have to wonder - just WTF is going on and how long can this go on for?

https://twitter.com/Undoomed/status/1403353790502391808

@Garry: how about paying 100000 "invisible" USD for that. Such a high-tier sculpture requires equally high-tier money for it.

Well to be fair I remember as a kid buying invisible stuff.... I only ever paid in invisible gold coins though...

Well, that is not something brand new ...
Back in 1961, Piere Manzoni, an Italian artist, "created" an art called "Merda d’artista". It is "Artist's shit".
He canned his own excrements into 90 cans, each numbered and sold them for a price equal to gold - 30 grams it was.
Not this "art" is worth about 30k euro apiece.
So we can call it an expensive piece of shit
Not some long time ago, some other "artist" canned elephants shit, and this entire "project" get an EU donation of about E250k.
So remember folks, shit happens

GarryB wrote:

If the west starts talking about partnerships and cooperation Putin should say no thanks.

I think its desireable if there could be some sort of cooperation. The problem is, how do you trust the USA? The politics are totally bipolar and agreements are worthless. They have broken almost every treaty they make and even **** around with "close allys" like Canada. and sanction Euopean allys!! Putin should just parrot what the USA says. He will defend Russian interests and when those interests align with American interests he will cooperarate. When they don't, dialog should be open so as to avoid military conflict.

If Russia turns into another US then in the long term they will likely suffer the same fate.

The western model so far has been to abuse and exploit the so called third world, which they see as backward but resource rich because they have not already been gone over with a fine tooth comb for resources that are easy and cheap to extract and exploit, while "fighting" the commies... the second world... similar technology and potential to us in the first world but our aggression and hostility means they are wasting their money on locks on doors and security systems, while we enjoy our money and assets.

The western model does not allow countries to move from their station... the west remains on top, the commies next and the poor remain the poor.

Russia and China have the potential to turn that around and say there is no first or second or third world... we have stuff and you have stuff lets just trade... we can develop and make money... not the eye watering empires of money in the west, but just a fair amount to make us happy but also you make money and DEVELOP and GROW so you become more powerful and REMAIN independent... we are not going to change you to become more like us and you are not going to change us either... lets remain different, but trade so we can buy and sell what we want and make everyones lives better so everyone can have running water... and inside toilets... not just in cities but technology making life easier for everyone including the poor... in fact lets get rid of poor... give them a chance to work their way out of poverty... don't throw money at them for doing nothing, but give them useful work and pay them a living wage so they can see them and their children having a future.

The western model simply does not work and has not worked for hundreds of years... we need something new... a multipolar world where no one country is in charge because of its military power.

kvs wrote:The sort of "accomplishment" that one of them had "preserved" in cans.

Works as long you may find people stupid enough to fuel that ... shit
This is the true level of "western values" degradation.

Russia actually is the only country, which could bring a new model and paradigm of civilisation. Russia is spiritually rich, specially if they will return from Othodox Christianity back to ancient vedic Russian civilisation. Russia is the only one, who have everything at home and doesn't need to steel anything from others.

Anyone know, if Russia could modify any standard MiG-31 to MiG-31K/D to use them with Kinzhal or antisat missile or they could only modernize existing ones, which were made in small numbers.

There is a lot of woke trashing here , to the stupid liberals , indeed they are ignorants ,but why you don't trash  the stupid convervative radicals ? like putin that keep people in the darkness for decades
with his stupid attachment to the past?  

They are both dangerous , they are both destructive , in their own ways.
One destroy human development , and the other destroy nations development with stagnation ,
and never solve any problems , just keep them forever going on for an eternity.

is the choice between doing wrong or doing nothing  ,which one is bad ?
both of them is bad , both are extremist , but in different directions. one promote selfishness
and divisions in society , the other promote race superiority over long term an racism .

havent you heard putin speaking about the "russian soul"  , he have the same stupid entry level
ideas that every dictator and right wing ultra nationalist have.    

i rather prefer a system , that is more mind your own business , and do not interfere with people
lives , to let people live in any way they want , as long don't harm , or violate the rights of others.

both are incredibly wrong . far left liberals and far right conser-virals are wrong , one totally
destroy societies and the personal level ,family level , and promote fascism , a dictatorship and the other totally destroy nations at the collective level , in the administration , create paralysis ,with the "worshipers of the past" ,attachment to the past and create totalitarian regimes .  

There are two examples , of totally disastrous top representatives of nations ,  notice that i don't call them leaders. because they aren't , they are managers and a disaster for the development of those nations.

in one side you have...

Justin Trudeau is an example of a far left ruler of Canada , a constitutional fascist dictator ,
that is doing horrible things against the development of society and the family and the future of the nation with so many divisions.  i many ways trudeu looks like a puppet , a symbolic position and the
true rulers of Canada are hidden somewhere else , and they have chosen him , only for public relations , but the real power taking decisions is somewhere else.


in the other side you have.
Vladimir Putin , an example of everything that is wrong with the conservatives , a constitutional
fascist dictators , that rules like authoritarian moron , with total attachment to the past ,that
have stagnated the nation true development for the past 20 years , that is if you remove all the cosmetics face lift of the country and the expansion of his gas stations empire and development of military.  putin is heading the country into the abyss , into an inevitable nuclear war , by refusing
to compete with the west and refusing to challenge their world influence and challenge their system.
and to make it even worse , show politeness ,a smiley face ,when they slap it , and weakness ,whenever the enemy kill your soldiers and shutdown your planes .     This is horrible ,because
this tactics , of weakness as power are not sustainable ,  they will continue increasing the hostilities
on russia , because they know putin is weak and he will do nothing , and this is why the west is considering building very small nukes , and try them on russian allies first and later on russian soldiers and eventually , and putin will continue being tested , how far they can go ,until he (if ever)
draw a line on them ,or fight back. this is why putin policies are very dangerous , promotes a nuclear war that can't be avoided , with his weakness.

so if you have to pick a leader for a nation like russia ,both of them are very bad . from 1 to 10 , they are close to zero.

Both of them are totalitarian regimes , but trudeu is not stupid he knows what he is doing, he is an opportunistic cold person , that is just on his position ,for his personal gains and nothing else ,while putin flaws is that is incredibly stupid , and very dumb , consequences of his blind attachment to the past .  none of them are good ,they are both horrible ,they are both totalitarian regimes , that repress the rights of minorities and very bad option , for any nation that is at the risk of collapsing ,
for the fact is facing a major war.

now he is the major difference , Trudeu don't rule a country facing war , there is no threat to Canada , so he could rule forever in Canada and even increase the economy and people might still consider him a good president , since Canada faces zero challenges of its own existence , it is protected by
their american neighbors , so Canada is a super safe country ,from any foreign enemies.

Russia in the other hand is just a sanction away from returning to the early 90s , that caused the collapse of its economy ,and divided the nation, and becoming a third world nation. If for example americans manage to get the right leaders , in europe , in germany and france , they can effectively ,isolate Russia from the world , will stop buying russian energy and disconnect Russia from the world trade . And even russia disconnected from the western banking system and internet while still heavily
dependent of the western business.  and the only nations that will continue trading with russia
are china , iran and cuba and venezuela, all those rejected third world nations ,that nobody give a shit ,that don't have any business worth of mentioning will be the only sources of income for russia.

If putin was facing such scenario , his popularity with decrease to near zero levels , when people
start to see ,they live  in a very outdated nation , that not even have internet and the only thing they can do is chat between  themselves. and disconnected from the world.

Both the woke stupid people , and the retards attached to the past people , both are bad , both are wrong , and having them are rulers of any nation is very bad , and if that nation is facing major problems ,challenging heir own existence , even worse.

Both trudeu and putin are totalitarian fascist rulers , but one of them can be seen as a lot worse ,because wants to rule forever in his country , like a dictator and citizens a big number of its population is already very tired of him.

Far left liberals are ego worshipers , me me me is the only thing that matters ,everyone else is not important.

far right conservatives , like putin , are "worshipers of the past" , is a radical cult to the past.
for them the only thing that matters is to follow the past traditions , to celebrate the past heroes to the statues as super humans , this people are the epitome of idiocy , and no new idea can enter in their heads , because they are in a tunnel vision with the past. they can't solve any problem , they only keep them ,delay conflicts but don't solve them . because they are totally ignorant of the most superior present , and other new ways of thinking and solving things. If you put putin for another 20 years in power , it will be another 20 years of stagnation of the nation development , people that don't change and continue doing the same things over and over and over again.

what far right conservative putin have been doing for russia in 20 years , doesn't work anymore , it worked early ,because russia was not facing sanctions and was in honeymoon with the west ,but not anymore. and he wrongly believes ,that he can push russia out of the dangers is facing today , by just modernizing even more their military and speaking politely and softly to his enemies.
he is an idiot , a fucking moron ,and is not trolling ,but for real.


The problem the world face today , are all consequences of two things...  
the west is too smart , and russia is too dumb.  Trudeu is not stupid , American rulers are not stupid.
the only stupid is putin.   If you think the west are dumb and stupid , is because you don't understand what are they trying to do..

The anglo western world , what their elites billionaires , what the west is doing , is nothing more
and nothing less ,that a war against Russia , in every possible way , they can think.  they trying
to isolate Russia from the world , in every way possible, and this is why they have invented
far left ideologies , like feminism , like lgqtb ,black life matters , and so and so.

Is a cultural war against Russia nothing more and nothing else.

The west understand very well , Putin mediocre view of the world , and the limitations putin face , (20% of russia population is from an incompatible religion with orthodox russia) ,and understand very well how easy is to fool putin , as long they don't directly attack russia ,they can continue killing their soldiers and pressuring his nation economy to beyond its limits , by creating conflicts in all nations that putin's russia have major interest or are very important for the security of russian borders.

It means , that the anglo west , is financing  far left movements ,  for the only reason ,than to
create a world , highly incompatible with putin's far right conservative Russia.

If Russia was ruled by someone that is totally opposite of putin , a far left totalitarian dictator , like trudeu is , and they predicted that he was going to rule for a very long time , what anyone things , will happen in the west?  Then they will go to the right ,and promote far right conservative values , with a twisted version of the bible , of course , to justify their hostilities.

So all this far left ideologies , are bad for society but good for totalitarian regimes why ?
because it follows the principle of divide and conquer. they want to demoralize the middle and poor class as much as possible , because a demoralzed and divided society , is one that will not fight the government and will not because a danger for their rule. So the moral of the story is , if you want to rule forever , in a nation , best way is to keep society dumb and demoralized , with far right or far left ideologies and finance divisions in the nation , that way the attention of society ,will be not the tyranical government , but their internal fights between members of their own family or their neighbors in their city.

Divide and conquer , is just that , why the west promotes and finance money to the far left ideologies and ultra far right  nationalism too..
so is not surprising , that the far left culture and nazis are more stronger where ??????

Right at russian borders , is a cultural wall , what NATO is creating around Russia .
the west is creating an iron curtain around russia , with nato military bases an
and ideologies fence too.  and those that support Putin are as fools as him ,to understand what
is going on.

FAr left movements and far right , they are the strongest right at russian borders with europe ,is a cultural wall ,they creating , with a military wall too and a political one too. and hoping to create an economic wall too.

the west governments are too smart , and putin is too dumb , this is the problem the world face.
is very imbalanced world , there is too much domination in the west , a super empire indeed in the west indeed, with a super stupid government in Russia ,and they use their influence , to destabilize the world , and you see their hand in ukraine , middle east and in armenia , and putin the only thing that idiot can do , is take hits and turn the other cheek.  And they will continue destabilizing russian borders , and he can't do nothing about it , when you are stupid , your enemies can continue hitting you and you will become very vulnerable ,as russia is , for having the wrong government in place.

to counter the west.
Russia needs a totally centered, totally neutral , mind of their own business government ,that do not marry with any religion and that instead of promoting stupid distractions like sports , they promote an education revolution , for society to better understand the world they live and how russian enemies are trying to disband russia.  A nation with zero attachment to the past , that is not afraid to reinvent itself in a totally new way ,without ignoring ,common sense , family values  and society unity.  a government that unites , not one that divides people between those with the "russian soul"
and those that don't have a "russian soul"  (how stupid can a ruler be )

and more importantly , a new ruler of russia can't ignore their enemies and allow them to continue
influencing the world in all areas , Russia needs a leader like xi xing ping of china , that challenge
the western world (directly), and not just any business , but the western most important and influential business around the globe ,to take away their influence  ,and become the new leader ,  and directly  damage their economy instead of totally ignoring the western domination ,with meaningless distractions as putin does with sports. and hockey and banana and rice farming records..      

when i see what the west is doing to russia , is like watching a big guy having fun ,taking the candies to a children ,just to see him crying. is just make me angry how stupid is putin and how he allows the west so easily to outplay him. don't see Russia survival to western sanctions as a sign of success..
this is a sign of weakness , when you have a nation that is in survival mode for 20 long years , then there is something horribly wrong with the government they have in place.


The west understand very very well putin ,  i have listened in their mainstream media their analyst ,
when putin survived the syrian test ,  the western analyst told ,

Putin is using weakness as power .

and this is 100% correct.  This is pretty much the entire strategy of that idiot , weakness as power ,
to be polite with the west , to avoid at any cost fighting them ,but at the same time , help their allies with weapons and in syria case with airforce.

Putin in the other hand had no fucking idea of how to counter the west, he knows what they doing in and around russian borders ,but he don't fucking understand how the west can so easily influence ukraine ,georgia ,baltics and other nations  into their orbit .  

is all about  LEADERSHIP , this is the major failure of russia , it is facing a leadership crisis.
starting with the moron in chief putin , and when you have a bad ruler at the top ,everyone below him ,will more than likely become as incompetent as their boss. but is also about a lack of vision too.
Putin's Russia attachment to the past is what is holding them back , big time ,into a real revolution in the nation . the past only purpose ,is to remember mistakes and learn from them , not to worship it.
and move forward.  There is no reason why russia can't expand beyond is borders and build constitutional alliances with nations close to US borders.  to emulate what they doing . but for doing such things , you need a strong leader first ,with the ability to convince , not an insecure ruler instead.  Russia have not much future to expand , in the place it is located  , bad weather and surrounded by even worse cultures than the russian one , in the south.   an  anti nato alliance with south america or mexico ,could have been the best thing to do , for Russia ,and create a latin america russo federation or something like that.. this will worry a lot the anglo west ,and could truly challenge them. and take advantage now of this vaccines diplomacy , if putin don't take advantage ,then will not surprise me , he is completely an ignorant and don't have the iq to do anything that could truly surprise the west ,at the political level and nation development level.


.
The world problems ,the decadence of the liberal anglo west AND decadence of ultra conservative Russia , that now population is leaving in the million per year, is all consequence of the west having too much leadership that is being used in a negative way for destructive things , to
destroy any competition and to make things worse , those that oppose it ,are too weak , with lack of leadership to influence the world back to a more constructive future.

Imho, the world is headed towards a one world government. as the first Bush said: "new world order", and anyone who isn't on board is attacked, be it Christians, Conservatives, who are usually Christians, Conservatives of any religion, for example - Jews, and Vladimir Putin, & Donald Trump.

The whole European Union is not "my country first", only Great Britain who left the E.U.

Right or wrong, imho, Vladimir Putin, and D. Trump was both their countries first.

& that isn't going to wash with the globalists.

all of the homosexual, trans, trans men in women sports, etc.  agendas, is an attack against God-established order, marriage, family, and biology, and science: male, female, two genders, edited to add, which is a stealth attack against Christianity - all forms that are conservative. , and Jewish religion.

I appreciate this is off topic but if Russia wants to do all that, they should start at home by stamping out that literal case of Sharia law over in Chechnya.

Finty wrote:I appreciate this is off topic but if Russia wants to do all that, they should start at home by stamping out that literal case of Sharia law over in Chechnya.

Can't really do that

EU and USA were very clear on minority rights and PR hassle isn't worth the effort

Too much work over nothing

Plus if locals don't like it they can just get on the bus and move away

Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

It is really funny that the west mistakes Putins self control and sensible countermeasures to be a sign of weakness.

A revised and reformed economy that is often compared to some tiny country but by now they make most of their own stuff so in actual fact they are in a far better position than even the wealthiest countries they compare them with.

A completely reformed and rebuild military that is already challenging the west and coming out looking good...

All the while they think Putin and Russia is weak... till they show they are not... which is only when they have to of course... they are not the showy flamboyant west who has a crowd to entertain and impress.

The one world order they want is already operating and is firmly based in the west, but there is a panic because the leader of the group... the US... only survives these days by printing more money now than it has printed in all the rest of its existence going backwards... that is not a good sign.

The US has never been more divided... can they fix it?

Well to be honest, the US has not been a good enough leader and world police for the rest of the world to care either way... world police my arse... they have been a lynch mob making sure the income streams of the top 1% in their country remain secure, so oil and minerals and everything else can be ignored...

The world is not going to miss that.

The point is that the US had the military power to force most smaller countries into line, so that is ending pretty soon as countries of the world can now access systems the US can't go up against and be assured of a win any more.

All the things you are addressing, are proof of deviated Anglosaxon narrative, that has nothing to do with the real world.

Sometimes, looking at a map is very refreshing.

What should give us an idea about the position & stand of modern Russia after 20 years of Putin, is its contacts with the other world.

First, we have China and India. Those two combine 1/3 of the population on a planet.
China is a Russian ally. The level of cooperation is impressive, and will only increase.
Some consider India as running into US hands but don't be naive. They are still a partner and friendly to Russia, and that won't change fast, if ever.
They have 50+ years of friendly relations, common business.
Even if some Indian decision-makers would make a U turn, it would not affect the fact that India would have to cooperate with Russia for decades.
Then you have Vietnam, openly friendly.
Myanmar as well.
Bangladesh, where Rosatom builds an NPP - how you would consider that ;-) ?
Pakistan? 10 years ago it used to be the main asset of Murican policy towards the region. Now, Pak special forces train with Russian colleagues, and Russia is going to start building a pipeline from Karachi to Lahore. Want to bet, who is to pump the gas into it, once Russians will finish construction?
Malaysia? Its government openly criticizes farce with MH17 around European courts, claiming that they do not consider any Russian involvement and fault. And calling the European judicial system untrusted.
Indonesia? A long-time consumer of Russian goods&weapony. Forced to step back lately, but that will ricochet.
Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam are long-time partners to Russia, openly friendly.
South Korea? A long-time partner. Delivers tons of modern electronics. Its own KM-SAM is made with Russians and is functionally a localized S-350. Helping Russians to create & upgrade the shipbuilding sector.
Even Philipines, a time being Muricas vassal state, improved its relations towards Russia with Duarte in power.
It is already more than half of the world population, and hell, we have just reached the Pacific!
Wanna go west?
Africa is turning towards China and Russia, which is already obvious.
It is not only the CAR, famous only now. The last economic summit targeted Africa brought to Moscow delegations of all African states. ALL OF THEM, imagine? Modern Russia has written off all outstanding debts of ex-African clients, changing those to contracts. Take a blink at demography for short. Who is getting into power now in Africa? Well, the guys who studied at the Soviet Union. They are in their late 50s now, accumulating all the experience and political power. Some of them speak fluent Russian. Would that help, how do you consider it?
Even in America, where we are witnessing constant meddling by the US, coups arranged, people killed for political reasons by US-sponsored or recruited goons, there are countries openly friendly towards Russia.
Hell, Mexico's foreign affairs secretary has just been to Moscow in April, stating for outstanding relations and historical ties. Lavrov has been to Mexico a year ago only!
Have you noticed, that in several cases, Russians have good relations with both sides of some life-long lasting conflicts? Like Iran and Israel. Or Armenia and Azerbaijan. Pakistan and India. China and Vietnam. South and North Korea. Ethiopia and Eritrea ...
That is a real picture of Russian diplomatic status and its general ability to friendly interaction with other states after 20+ years of Putin's rule.
And this is a real reason behind Anglosaxon's histeria.

flamming_python wrote:Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

Agreed, but the problem is that the US policy makers will never except a multi-polar world. It is not in their economic interest to do so. They need enemies to "thrive".

That's why Russia needs to keep on building wonderful planes like the Mig-31's!

Mir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Russia's not going to turn into another version of America

It learned its lessons from the Soviet-era about promoting a messianic ideology abroad with huge resources and in general just putting in all that effort and all that ambition, only to end up with debts to it from countries that could never pay it off, it's own foreign debt that it couldn't pay off either, and no thank-you note in the mail either, just a bunch of bitter neighbours.

It's not going to go down that route again. Nor does it really have some civilization model or whatever at the moment that's worth exporting. A rehash of some Tsarist Russia themes, mixed in with Lenin statues, and a modern federalism model, which isn't applied consistently either.

But what it definitely is interested in is making money and opening up foreign markets.

Agreed, but the problem is that the US policy makers will never except a multi-polar world. It is not in their economic interest to do so. They need enemies to "thrive".

That's why Russia needs to keep on building wonderful planes like the Mig-31's!

Naturally material interests underpin all this ideology stuff.

It's the motivation that comes first (American bourgeois getting tired of paying the English king taxes), and the justification that's thought up of later (liberty, republicanism, democracy, etc..)

But idealism also comes to drive decision-making itself to larger or lesser degrees, as even our leaders are only human, and the desire to have other countries become like you so that you can have more permanent 'friends' is an important motivator too.

Russia just needs to avoid all that. It can't let ideology or messianism creep into its foreign policy nor its way of thinking about the world.